Hybrid CO2/Electric NBB system

[Horsem4n]

i have a feeling that Mr Blue already thought of using a paintball gun solenoid, but i didn't look into it much. its a good idea.

as for using another solenoid to actuate the nozzle. its a good plan, but the reason i got rid of it and tried designing a vale that will load a BB and shoot under gas pressure alone was so that there was less points of possible electronic failure. i think however Mr Blues design still involves that 2nd solenoid, but he hasn't shared any specifics with me.

 

im going to go look into the paintball gun valves more. i may, after all, make one of these on my own just because i cant think of any builds for DMRs i want to do that involve armalites. i do however have a kick *albatross* plan for a Vintorez.

 

as for a selector, i did think of using a pot for one, but my current design still involves the stock button that comes with the ECU i was going to use. pressing it turns the system on, continuous pressing cycles through programmed firing modes and holding it turns it off. however, i think Mr Blues design uses just an on/off switch, but don't hold me to those words.

[Mr. Blue]

My system uses 1 Solenoid

 

The use of a tube linear Solenoid in conjunction with a pneumatic solenoid increases the Production cost, and thus leads to a higher end cost. The reason I have taken so long is because my aim is to reduce as many of the costs as possible and make it much more affordable for those who are interested and while keeping margins high enough to make this worth while for me to pursue.

 

My original design lead me to a final price beyond 600 dollars.

 

As for the selector, a simple on/off switch is used in the system.

[Phuncz]

So basically you are saying that by not spending money on gettingvmy AGM working, I should just save it for your project ?! Holy smokes where do I sign up ?

 

Seriously, I am always behind fans trying to improve the world of the hobby, so you got my blessing. I'd buy an AEG M4 just for this project.

[bankz5152]

I like this idea very much so. I love Co2 because its not burdened by cool down effects especially with it being adjustable.

[Mr. Blue]

So basically you are saying that by not spending money on gettingvmy AGM working, I should just save it for your project ?! Holy smokes where do I sign up ?

 

Seriously, I am always behind fans trying to improve the world of the hobby, so you got my blessing. I'd buy an AEG M4 just for this project.

 

Possibly? It depends on your goals and purpose for your AGM. If you intended to keep it Semi-auto only and aimed for a DMR role, then I would say what I will have to offer may help you get there.

 

 

I like this idea very much so. I love Co2 because its not burdened by cool down effects especially with it being adjustable.

 

In a semi auto configuration, this will hold true. if dropped into a gas guzzling smg/lmg/mg platform, it might not. = )

[Bane]

Possibly? It depends on your goals and purpose for your AGM. If you intended to keep it Semi-auto only and aimed for a DMR role, then I would say what I will have to offer may help you get there.

 

 

 

 

In a semi auto configuration, this will hold true. if dropped into a gas guzzling smg/lmg/mg platform, it might not. = )

 

 

The primitive C02/electric hybrid converted mechbox i built (Utilizing mechanical gears, semi, etc and replacing piston with a striker and the cylinder with a valve system) for a MG project works sufficiently on C02 regardless of spammage with minimal cooldown.. still working on the unit but so far its actually proved incredibly consistent so considering utilizing it in a DMR system aswell.. Mr Blue i'm very interested in your idea and will be watching closely

[mcnuggets]

Here's one possible way to fit an closed-bolt electronic-firing system into a AEG gearbox:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/jhyan/Pumpspoolgif-done.gif

 

This idea isn't mine, it is a custom paintball gun project proposal over at:

 

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/custom-projects-custom-questions/46428-pump-spooler.html

 

The bolt is manually operated but there's no reason why a second solenoid valve and a two-direction air cylinder to automatically cycle it.

 

Mr. Blue, I don't know how your system will be closed-bolt and only have one solenoid? Looking at paintball designs there's two electropneumatic closed-bolt that I know of:

 

AKA Excalibur:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/excal_complex_7fps.gif

 

SP Shocker:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/shockersport_v3_7fps.gif

 

Both seem to require at least one three-way and one two-way valve. I'm curious as to how you managed to get away with only one?

[Horsem4n]

if you used 2 solenoids, you wouldn't need a spool system. one solenoid to open and close the nozzle and one to fire off the gas is all thats needed.

[mcnuggets]

The one I mentioned would use two solenoids. An additional one would need to work the bolt.

[Mr. Blue]

I blended my Notes on the WA2000 and a few of my previous PB markers.

 

The system is a decreasing force spool firing valve, loosely derived from the Smart Parts Ion, Asahi Wa2000 and Shocker parts using a single 3 way NO valve.

[mcnuggets]

So it's an open-bolt?

[Mr. Blue]

So it's an open-bolt?

 

Nope, At rest the BB is loaded into the Hop up chamber.

 

When the trigger switch is engaged, the decreasing force side of the system drops, fires, cycles and loads.

[Tariel]

Not to sound like a total *albatross*, but why would you take a step backwards into airsoft and make something based off of old tech? Instead why not look into the current GBBR market and see what you can spin off on that? There's plenty of room for improvments and innovations there. Further more I don't see any reason why electric and gas needs to be mixed, both types have derivitives of its own that function just fine. If the ability to regulate the gas that is being used it a concern, I'm sure a system can be made in some way to do so. Alot of people find it unappealing to even see an air source outside of the mag. The workings of your idea is nice, but when I think about it in the world of airsoft, I really can't see it as something people will run for.

[Bane]

Not to sound like a total *albatross*, but why would you take a step backwards into airsoft and make something based off of old tech? Instead why not look into the current GBBR market and see what you can spin off on that? There's plenty of room for improvments and innovations there. Further more I don't see any reason why electric and gas needs to be mixed, both types have derivitives of its own that function just fine. If the ability to regulate the gas that is being used it a concern, I'm sure a system can be made in some way to do so. Alot of people find it unappealing to even see an air source outside of the mag. The workings of your idea is nice, but when I think about it in the world of airsoft, I really can't see it as something people will run for.

 

 

Because when your looking for THE BEST accuracy in a semi-automatic platform the AEG gearbox and the GBBR platforms both fall short for a number of reasons. AEG's have alot of moving parts that wear, and GBBR's have that ever-present cooldown effect from the small gas reservoir. The benefit of using a bigger gas reservoir (Remoteline) means that your cooldown is nil from firing, further use of a Cold Shot regulator system allows you to deliver the same amount of power with each trigger pull.

 

GBB systems fail on gas usage because of hte blowback, you end up using very little to actually fire the BB, then dump a crapload to make the gun recoil to load the next round. Novel, yes, enjoyable, yes, but practical from a accuracy-above-all standpoint? No.

 

the hybrid system is like a semi-auto NBB, it uses very little gas just to propel the BB, meaning your strain on your gas reservoir is minimal, and lack of moving parts in a solenoid-system is a plus. When you look at what i'm doing (Drop in gearbox conversion) you still have the failures of the AEG system but they are minimal as the overall wear on the parts internally is less due to the weakened forces internally, basically meaning you can use an equivalent M30 spring to give you 500-600 FPS quite easily.

[Tariel]

That still doesn't remedy the external air issue, there's a reason why external air airsoft guns aren't being made anymore. For most people and I do say a good lot of the community, that's a deal breaker. AEGs and GBBs have everything you need inside the gun already, all that needs to be added is either the battery or the air. When you start going into external air, this requires rigs. That can often be expensive and like I said, not many like the idea of carrying the rig. One of the most attractive things about airsoft is that the guns look realistic, and most of the companies are on an on-going effort to make the next most realistic gun. This is why the GBBR market spouted up, sure it's a little rusty now, but give it a few years and it'll be polished down to a great system. Seeing a hose come out of a gun to an air rig just really makes the gun look more like a toy, and while they are toys, the idea is to make them not look like toys.

[Bane]

That still doesn't remedy the external air issue, there's a reason why external air airsoft guns aren't being made anymore. For most people and I do say a good lot of the community, that's a deal breaker. AEGs and GBBs have everything you need inside the gun already, all that needs to be added is either the battery or the air. When you start going into external air, this requires rigs. That can often be expensive and like I said, not many like the idea of carrying the rig. One of the most attractive things about airsoft is that the guns look realistic, and most of the companies are on an on-going effort to make the next most realistic gun. This is why the GBBR market spouted up, sure it's a little rusty now, but give it a few years and it'll be polished down to a great system. Seeing a hose come out of a gun to an air rig just really makes the gun look more like a toy, and while they are toys, the idea is to make them not look like toys.

 

 

Because not everybody cares that much about their gun being 110% realistic, a small black airline detracts about as much from a gun as, say, a non-removeable iron sight where its supposed to be removeable on a real gun. Its not hard to cleverly disguise a remote line rig, and they dont impose any extra difficulty in use. Besides, alot of people out there prefer to get the best performance out of their guns over the slight issue of a small black hose.

[Tariel]

Getting the best performance in a gun isn't something hard to do these days. For AEG's, it's pretty much set and done, spend the right money to get the right parts and you can have something as ideal as what is trying to be achieved here. On the GBB side, I won't admit it's perfect. Far from it. Like I said, given a few years, the system will be nicely polished down to where it's reliable and can and will achieve the type of shooting perfection most of us want. I do feel it will come from a different type of GBB system rather than the current ones we see now.

 

 

[Horsem4n]

drake represents a demographic of people this isnt aimed for. nobody here should try to change the minds of people who dislike or hate external rigs or don't understand why we are taking a step back in airsoft history.

 

the case is, people like me who respect performance over form know that airsoft in the past had better performing systems than current airsoft rifles.

 

the only reason airsoft "progresses" is because of trends. whatever sells the best is what manufacturers turn to and sell, trashing old systems even if they perform better than new systems.

 

BV and solenoid guns are still the best performing guns on the planet and happen to be some of the oldest systems around. the case is that they were barely ever produced in cheaply and widely available forms and thus fell to the wayside when AEGs came out and airsoft got extremely popular. those system didn't get to make a come back in popularity because their manufacturers died, the guns became even more expensive and the aftermarket support just about dried up. however, there's still a relatively large group of supporters and techs that love classic guns and people like me that love performance. its those people that we aim to sell these boxes to.

 

so if you don't get it, thats fine. AEGs perform fine even though they are relatively unreliable and sound like ######. GBBRs are still at a stage of novelty even though they are also very popular. they perform worse than AEGs and are also more expensive than even some classics.

 

my only solutions for GBBRs is to trash them. we still have escorts provided daytonagun sticks around. you cant really modify an existing GBBR to work on external gas to fix most of its shooting performance issues unless you give each mag an external feed nipple, but thats not to great for mag changes. and then you still have the finicky nature of GBBRs that i don't think will be fixed before their popularity dies down enough to make manufacturers stop making them.

 

well, gosh, now im ranting...

[Tariel]

Well, let's look at it this way. The author of this thread asked if it would of been worth it for him to continue on with this idea. Now even though in it's theory it's possibly better than existing systems, I'm one of many that represents the very reason why this would probably not be profitable in his case. I put up some very good examples of what he is up against and in the end, he would only be satisfying a minority of airsofters that would give his product some light. Then what? After those who desired the system has bought it, how else will it expand? With all those AEGs and GBBs out there, it would be hard to imagine that too many will turn their wallet to the idea. After all he is trying to profit from this.

 

 

[Horsem4n]

i know. hes told me though that hes has enough support to feel that hell recuperate his losses, he doesn't care for a large profit margin, he doesn't plan to form a company around these. at least i don't think...

but if it works really well, that will cause people to like it and want to buy one cause it doesn't cost much more than building up on an AEG. but you still dont get the flexibility.

 

but anyway, i get your point. but at least you know "why" we are taking a step back in time. its a mix of asthetics, and the high possibility of it just working better, even if its only slightly better.

[mcnuggets]

I see a lot of potential for milsim in an electropneumatic system if done right. There's more immediate power to play with by using gas as oppose to a purely electric system. Features like blowback, which require a large weight moving quickly, are more feasible.

 

There might be an addition where blowback is produced from a weight in an air cylinder in the stock. An additional solenoid, or a maybe a 5-way valve instead of a 3-way valve for Mr. Blue's system, can be used where part of the air is used to drive this weight back and forth to simulate recoil.

 

Then there's other realistic qualities like shorter trigger delay and sound report that come with a gas system.

 

Also with a microprocesser controlled pneumatic system you can simulate things like jams, overheating, bolt held open on the last round, having to rack the bolt before starting to fire again. Stuff like what the airsoftmechanics.com guys are doing but with more variables. Things like variable valve dwell to simulate a dirty barrel that isn't possible with an AEG.

 

Just a few things. I think an easily concealable remote line is small price for these features.

[Mr. Blue]

Not to sound like a total *albatross*, but why would you take a step backwards into airsoft and make something based off of old tech? Instead why not look into the current GBBR market and see what you can spin off on that? There's plenty of room for improvments and innovations there. Further more I don't see any reason why electric and gas needs to be mixed, both types have derivitives of its own that function just fine. If the ability to regulate the gas that is being used it a concern, I'm sure a system can be made in some way to do so. Alot of people find it unappealing to even see an air source outside of the mag. The workings of your idea is nice, but when I think about it in the world of airsoft, I really can't see it as something people will run for.

 

Wait, so I am a total %^@#! for liking an airsoft system, learning about it, improving it and asking if there are others out there who would also be interested? Isn't that the whole basis of a public forum for a hobby?, To enjoy a subject and find others who also enjoy it? You don't have to like it, but seriously be a little more tolerant. A simple, " Not really interested" would suffice.

 

GBBR Technology... I had a GBB Kokusai Back in the day... and I've owned a WA and WE... Do I see improvements in the system? sure, its possible, but there are others out there already doing that on a bigger scale than I can ever offer. I'd rather tinker and sell on what I know.

 

This is not a thread to discuss merits on different systems. This is a thread about finding those whom have an interest in what I have to offer. If you don't care for it, that is fine fine me, Just don't call me the equivalent of an Airsoft Luddite.

 

Sure, allot of people find hoses and regulators unappealing, but frankly I find AEG's unappealing, so based of my opinion, I moved to Gas powered guns. Am I wrong to do so? I hope not. Do I mouth on AEG users? nope, not at all.

 

 

That still doesn't remedy the external air issue, there's a reason why external air airsoft guns aren't being made anymore. For most people and I do say a good lot of the community, that's a deal breaker. AEGs and GBBs have everything you need inside the gun already, all that needs to be added is either the battery or the air. When you start going into external air, this requires rigs. That can often be expensive and like I said, not many like the idea of carrying the rig. One of the most attractive things about airsoft is that the guns look realistic, and most of the companies are on an on-going effort to make the next most realistic gun. This is why the GBBR market spouted up, sure it's a little rusty now, but give it a few years and it'll be polished down to a great system. Seeing a hose come out of a gun to an air rig just really makes the gun look more like a toy, and while they are toys, the idea is to make them not look like toys.

 

Lets see, Escorts guns are still being produced by 3rd party groups... do they count as producers? There are many Tanaka and KJW Bolt action users who Drill and tap their magazines for External Air for Performance reasons. Don't they count for anything ( These users are also my Market)

 

That is fine if people don't want what I have. I KNOW this product won't appeal to 98% of the players out there. I am pretty sure only .001% of players world wide will care what I make. And to be honest, that is great.

 

If people want realistic guns, there are plenty of manufacturers, with 100's of thousands of dollars in operating capital, who cater to that already. Maybe 100 people in the world want a Co2 regulated, NBB platform and guess what, I am looking for them.

 

Now, After Addressing Drake's points, Yes people, I know I am catering to a niche market. For the most part I am aiming for 2 crowds.

 

1. The previously established Sniper crowd with tanaka/kjw based rifles, drilled and tapped for co2 and HPA. The Kit will retail for the likes of 300-400 dollars and these players will already have the equipment to run said kits with the benefit of semi-auto fire and current aftermarket support (hundreds of combinations of barrels, hop ups, Hop up rubbers, and nubs. These members already understand the value of fps in the variables for a consistently performing shot.

 

2. Players in the DMR niche of AEGs whom wish to produce a rifle with Bolt action consistency. the price of the kit+External air is equivalent to the maintenance and parts required for a long lasting HIGH fps build.

[Vercingetorix]

This system sounds awesome, my only concern is mating it to a flawed system like the AR15 hop-up.... I had though MBB was originally shooting for an M14 drop in Any chance that will ever be coming to fruition, as while I am very interested in the AR one, I am way more interested in a drop in for M14s, and I don't think I am alone among the DMR bunch.

[Mr. Blue]

The system is very modular because the bulk of the system is designed to fit with the area that an AEG cylinder needs., right now the planned sequence of builds are...

 

V2 (M4 model)

V2* (Sr-25 models, Limited run)

V7

V3

[Horsem4n]

there are a few, or maybe only a couple, good options for armalite hops, being the Prometheus chamber with their strike kit and the madbull one with the rotary hop.