Interested in Hk21E/Hk11 Project

[aznriptide859]

Since Arnie's has a larger European presence than ASF or ASR, I figured I ask this before putting it as an actual project.

 

How possible is it to create a Hk21 or Hk11? I want to build some sort of support weapon but something unique in the huge sea of M249's and RPK's. The only significant differences I could find between that and say a G3A4 is the 21E stock, the vented handguard (that'll probably be custom made from a PVC tube), the bipod, and the drum mag (I plan to make it myself).

 

I'm leaning more towards the HK11E since it's mag-fed, and I'd have no idea how to custom build the feed mech found in the belt-fed HK21E. I found an HK surplus store here in the US, but their prices are ridiculous - $1.5k for a HK21E front end, and $800 for the loading mech alone (i.e. just the mag well).

 

That said, how plausible is it? My other main question is if the HK21's front end is longer (or different in length) than the G3's front end - that way, if it's the same, I can just get rid of the G3 handguard, and work from there.

[Tariel]

21E's are completely different guns. The reciever base is a PSG-1 type with the iron sight mount on it, the mag-well is cut and modified to hold and cycle the belt fed ammunition. The stock from the metal cap to the rubber end is 9.5 inches long and the rubber end, though looks like the PSG-1 rubber end, is actually shorter. The stock is just as long or a bit longer than the PSG-1 stock. The cocking tube is one piece and is longer, and so is the barrel. The entire front end is a one peice set that has an opening to allow barrel swaps. It utilizes an MP5 lower reciever made for G3's, most commonly seen with safe, single, burst and full auto.

 

The differences being known, I've always desired a 21E, but I knew it could not be done witht he current items that exist for airsoft. So I decided that I would customized my own or perhaps even make a small production of some items for a 21E. I would make the plastic parts out of fiberglass, using solid models and laying it with fiberglass, which is what I had in mind. The front part of it, I would make out of metal pipes and modify them into the shapes I want. It requires some machining, but shouldn't run up the bill high enough to make it undoable. Unfortunatly I do not have the machinery to do it, so I'm having to resort to local machinist.

 

 

[aznriptide859]

Hmm...I might just go with the HK11/E design (I believe the 11 original used SEF, but the E uses the single/burst/full lower) since that can be just based off a G3 design...I think.

[Tariel]

If anything, I know this would be hard to obtain, but the G&G lower reciever that they use for their G3 guns might just be the best one you can use. If you really want to go deep into the modification, you can go as far as to making the actual markings onto it. As far as the body, if you want to be authentic, try to get your hands on a PSG-1 body. For the few people that have bought metal bodies like me, we would have no real use for the plastic one. Unfortunatly I'm using mine to conduct my own 21E project.

[aznriptide859]

Would using a PSG-1 body on a G3 lower allow for a normal V2 GB though?

 

EDIT: Highly considering the HK11K now...the 21 seems too long a barrel for me to do another extreme ROF project on.

 

[Tariel]

The PSG-1 body is exactly a G3 body with some changed externals, that's it. The lower reciever needs to have a small, small modification. Do you know where the small pin goes on the lower reciever? Remove that part up to where the hole stops (Basically remove the hole.) and it will fit just fine on the PSG-1 body. OR you can just dremel the extra part where the hole is suppose to be and drill a new hole to allow for the pin, so that the lower reciver doesn't need to be cut-up. Not many people know this, but the PSG-1 can be converted to use a regular V2 gearbox without modification, just stick any G3 V2 gearbox and it will work. The version 4 gearbox was designed around V2 type bodies, so technically that means it should be able to work with SR25's with only a modified grip (Will be testing that.) and fire flawlessly.

[aznriptide859]

The only difference I can tell on the PSG1 vs G3 receiver is that the sliding stock holes are filled (to a point), and there aren't any hooked areas meant for claw mounts. I mean, I can basically just get that from a G3 receiver by filling in the area, then dremeling off the claw mount hooks right?

[Tariel]

The PSG-1 does have claw mount spots, it just uses 3 instead of 4 spots due to the forawrd bolt assist. G&G sells a PSG-1 claw mount rail, it works quite well, so I don't think that would be an issue. Like I said you only need the PSG body if you want to be authentic, otherwise, is not needed. The differences are really these, the slider space is blocked as you said, it has a forward bolt assist, it doesn't have the bottom mag release (The one right in front of the trigger guard.) and it doesn't utilize the lower reciever pin. All else is just like a standard G3. The blowback mechanism that the PSG features is somethig that was built into all G3 bodies. The PSG-1 just happens to be the only one that features the parts to do it, but is completely removable or transferable to other G3's. If you really wanted to go through the trouble or if you have a G3 with parts you can swap you can mix and match certain parts onto the PSG-1 body, such as the lower mag release lever.

 

I do feel if you want a true HK11 or 21E body you will need a PSG-1 and G3 body, swap out the forard bolt assist, slider blocks and the scope mount top piece and attach it to the G3 body. This way you still have a sight mount and everything else you need to complete the look. I highly advise taking the internal stock block that the PSG-1 has since it is metal and prevents the body from flexing inwards when you attatch and use the stock. I always felt G3's had flimsy stocks and that's because that piece isn't there.

[aznriptide859]

Meh, probably won't do it haha.

 

I do have another question - the "ring" area right in front of the magwell/behind the barrel shroud - how would you go about making that? I was looking between the HK91 and the HK21 carry handles, and noticed that the latter mounts in a very small manner (not sure how it does it), while the former mounts by placing a whole cover over the top of the receiver. I'm guessing the HK21 handle uses that small "ring" area to mount the handle.

[Tariel]

For the easiest and cheapest alternative to make the front end your best bet is to use a mix of Bondo, PVC and fiberglass. The rest is up to you and your dremel/drill skills. As far as the carry handles, I think it is using the universal G3 carry handles. You can use the real one but it is probably expensive ($150+) like all other H&K stuff. But that ring you refer to is really just the front end covering over the body. H&K do their best to try and use a "One model makes them all" method to their guns, rather than making completely new ones. This is what makes customizing them easy for people like us.

 

If you like I think this would be better discussed over an instant messenger of some sort, I use MSN. Let me know in a PM.

[Tariel]

You know, I've been studying more pictures of this gun and I'm under the impression that the entire upper reciever and front end are all one piece and conjoined together. I believe it is like this for structural reason since the barrel has to be interchangable. That changes the entire build of this kind of gun.

[aznriptide859]

Well HKParts sells the barrel shroud, which makes believe its separate...unless they cut it off.

 

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK21E-HK23E-U-S-Made-Shroud-W-Weldments-11p204.htm

[Tariel]

Something is contradicting itself here. I say this because when I look at the photo's of the HK11's and that piece you showed me and then I look at 21E pictures. It shows something way different. The HK11 picture doesn't show any of these parts welded together yet in all the 21E pictures, they are. This must mean that they might be seperate pieces at first and then welded after it is all together. I'm unsure why they would do this because I would think you would want to be able to take it all apart. I'm sticking with the one peice idea, but at least this makes it easier to make on my end.

 

I thought I would add this, I've been doing some calling around to find dimensions and what not and aparently there is a dealer somewhat closeby that has an actual 21E in his store. I'm going to be asking if I could visit to see and take pictures of it and see how the gun is actually like. Along with its dimensions of course.

[aznriptide859]

^That would be awesome . I'm more focused on the barrel shroud (or handguard or whatever) and the "ring" thing behind it that the carry handle mounts to. Also, if you could find out how the bipod mounts, that'd be awesome too

[Tariel]

I was denied to go see or take pcitures of it without buying it sadly.. My next step is to try asking the members of HKpro for pictures, From what I was told, it is a very helpful community, so lets see.

[aznriptide859]

I found a site that was selling both the HK11K and the HK21E, with very nice pictures (and a scary $25k price tag). The link is on my other computer, I'll find it when I get home tonight.

[Tariel]

You ever find those links? The part I have the most trouble determining is the magwell area, I can't seem to get many good pictures of it to see how it is made with the body or on its own. I know that part is suppose to be interchangable. I want to try an replicate a shell of it as best as possible, but at this rate I'm shooting in the dark. Makes me wish I had the funds to buy a real one lol.

[Bane]

Good luck with the build

 

Would very much like to see the belt-fed 21E as i've always thought it a very sexy gun would have made one myself exept i detest V2 gearboxes

[Ledpocket]

There are some good pics here:

 

http://www.rdts.com/HK_Upgrades.html

[Tariel]

I hate to sound picky, but sadly alot of the 21E pictures are modified ones from H&K machinist. I would like to go after the origonal look, sadly references are few and far inbetween for those.

[aznriptide859]

http://www.dndguns.com/hk_21.htm

 

Also, managed to get a HK 1200m Gen4 rear sight for $120. Hurrah.

[Tariel]

Wow just the references I wanted, and that's an epic deal for a sight like that. I want one~ Soon enough..

 

Do you think it will fit the airsoft recievers? I'm pretty skeptical about puting RS parts on airsoft guns.

[aznriptide859]

That's what dremels are for

[Tariel]

Do you think it would be better to persue the older 21E look or the updated/modified ones? I personally like the older look but it seems harder to make and I have almost no images of the detatchable belt mechanism. Perhaps I can super impose the images you have in that link there to the older gun to replicate it?

 

Also how likely would it be that I'll find a rear sight be it gen 3 or 4 as affordable as you got it?

[aznriptide859]

I say browse the HKPro forums and see if you can get a bite. I know for sure there were 2 more 1200M sights (one was G3 one was G4) but they ran around $215-$230.