The sun are sensationalising guns yet again!

[WhiteHawksan]

That was a really really stupid joke for him to make. I can't think of any other reason to do it, but it was a really dumb joke.

 

I don't know if there is a big difference between the US and the UK in that regard, but while there is definitely something hanging over you from a felony conviction, you are still reasonably able to work/get a job/seek education. The very fact that most people committing those crimes are only capable of rather bunk jobs is a minor saving grace as they are exactly the jobs where that conviction shouldn't stand in their way.

 

The issue with guns as a separate thing from knives or maces or anything else is that it is relatively hard to walk into a room and kill 30 people with a knife. The kind of training and strength required to do that would be more than enough to keep people from succeeding. Honestly I find it kind of amazing how few people are killed in the shooting sprees that do happen. If any of the perpetrators practiced before hand the numbers would go through the roof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%932012%29

 

And I think there is more of a difference here in the UK, one of my friends had a few convictions for petty crimes over a couple bad years in his life, drug possession, robbery etc. You know the drill. He couldn't get a job at all, he was always passed up, never got a chance to interview.

 

You know what I love about arnies? The chance to argue a really emotive topic such as this in a mature and adult way that hasn't resorted to a childish slagging match.

[Baddbaz]

Sorry bout the shocking joke , but if you didn't laugh occasionaly in this country you would top yourself with depression because if the way it is run !!! Working as a doorman we get to hear and see what the local trends are in various areas around the country . And usually end up facing it first hand , the police and goverment figures are usually a year behind when something changes on the streets ,

Some places are a lot more violent than others depending upon how affluent the people are . So can't be put down to a city wide statistic which is what the politicians / powers above like to do to make things look less serious than they actually are .!!!

Knives are very widespread in the uk at the moment with the youth of today ,some for crime and most for a misguided form of defense !!

Guns tend to be more used in drug / street crime areas in the larger city's where drug gangs / street gangs prevail . As it is a dog eat dog mentality with these people!! Mixed in with a respect / fear me culture to gain status for their gangs / business interests , the Eastern European influx has also brought in a lot of violent individuals who are upsetting the criminal apple Cart ( so to speak ) trying to take over the existing criminal networks / incomes of the uk criminals . But at the same time running a lucrative business of supplying firearms to them !!!

Legal firearms are not really coming into the equation as most responsible owners are not involved in this street violence / problem in any way whatsoever !!

[my_plague_666]

America needs tighter gun-control, if someone wants to own guns because they think that guns are awesome, then why the hell not? You can own swords, cars, and I'm fairly certain hefty rocks are pretty good at killing people too. Knives are pretty darned deadly and how many of us REALLY need a chef's knife? I mean, if all the sharp knife sets in peoples kitchens went missing would society as we know it collapse? I suspect not. Most people would be fine with 'safe' cutlery for day to day cooking (and I do a lot of cooking but for a while my shiny sharp chef's knife was in the post so I had to make do, and I managed fine enough). 

 

The simple fact is, guns, knives and cars don't kill people, people using them kill people. 

 

first off, knives, swords and hefty lumps of rock are far less efficient killing tools. you need to be close to your target, your target is easily able to run out of your limited range and your effectiveness is limited by your physical fitness. there's a very good reason we've stopped using blades as our primary weapon of war, guns are MUCH more effective killing tools.

second. yes, we really do need sharp knives in a kitchen. a dull blade is significantly more dangerous than a sharp one. if you're having to apply more pressure to cut then you're more likely to slip and cut yourself. plus the wound from a blunt knife will arguably be worse as it's not a clean cut. seriously, try cutting an onion with a blunt knife (or don't because that'd be stupid) and see how much easier, safer and more controlled it is with a nice sharp blade.

 

I don't see how a high performance car doesn't also have the potential for great harm.

 

If people's personal enjoyment wasn't a good enough reason to have anything then we'd all be limited to driving 1.2l runabouts.

 

yes, there is potential for great harm with a high performance car. However i'd argue that the overall potential for harm is still probably less, and more importantly guns are far more likely to be used for intentional harm. any harm caused by a car is likely to be the result of irresponsible use or an unlucky accident. guns have plenty of potential for fully intentional harm as well as unintentional/accidental. 

also i don't think performance is entirely relevant. somehow i doubt the majority of fatal crashes are at higher speeds than your average runabout will top out at (around 100mph). if they're travelling at the same speed a 1.6 audi A4 is going to do just as much damage as an audi S4 packing a 4.2L V8. it's also worth considering that higher performance cars also handle a lot better than the average runabout so will arguably be safer. i'd be far more wary of a 17 year old ragging his little 1.2 corsa about close to it's limit of grip than i would an S4, even if the S4 is driving significantly faster because it'll hold the road a lot better.

[Baddbaz]

Dosnt matter what you give to a murderer as they will always find whatever is available to hurt someone , be it a car , lorry , plane , gun, knife , or whatever they want to use , even a concrete block dropped off a motorway bridge will cause mayhem and death

You can't ban everything and personally I think it is a waste of time and resources trying to !!

Money and time could be better spent on repairing society and communities !!

[my_plague_666]

Dosnt matter what you give to a murderer as they will always find whatever is available to hurt someone , be it a car , lorry , plane , gun, knife , or whatever they want to use , even a concrete block dropped off a motorway bridge will cause mayhem and death

You can't ban everything and personally I think it is a waste of time and resources trying to !!

Money and time could be better spent on repairing society and communities !!

 

by that logic we may as well legalise hand grenades   does that sound like a good idea? because out of those list of things i'd say a frag grenade is the only thing that matches the killing potential of a gun, the rest just wouldn't cause as much carnage. if guns were heavily restricted would the various school massacres still have happened only with, say, a sword? probably not. a sword isn't as easily concealable and IMO wouldn't give the feeling of power as a gun, a sword can't kill 5 people 50m away in a matter of seconds, i'd guess and say that without that level of power they probably wouldn't bother at all, i mean whats the point? you'd probably kill a few people at best and then what? kill yourself? seppuku isn't quite as quick and easy as blowing your brains out.

[WhiteHawksan]

by that logic we may as well legalise hand grenades   does that sound like a good idea? because out of those list of things i'd say a frag grenade is the only thing that matches the killing potential of a gun, the rest just wouldn't cause as much carnage. if guns were heavily restricted would the various school massacres still have happened only with, say, a sword? probably not. a sword isn't as easily concealable and IMO wouldn't give the feeling of power as a gun, a sword can't kill 5 people 50m away in a matter of seconds, i'd guess and say that without that level of power they probably wouldn't bother at all, i mean whats the point? you'd probably kill a few people at best and then what? kill yourself? seppuku isn't quite as quick and easy as blowing your brains out.

I'm afraid to say, in the most respectful way possible. You are an idiot.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932012)

 

there you go, 25 fatalities and over 100 injuries from mass school stabbings where guns are not available.

[Baddbaz]

My last post was a bit off the cuff , so to speak

But I am genuinely fed up with the big brother approach to every thing the last few goverments have enforced on everything nowadays , always taking things away from the law abiding responsible people because of overreaction by people and the media on everything that happens nowadays , be it guns , food , cereal ( the latest one , too much sugar apparently ) if they spent their time and effort punishing the wrongdoers rather than blanket banning things I could respect them more , if guns are so bad why didn't they ban shotguns as well as pistols etc . Reason not being !!! , the gentry , rich people like to shoot guns as well . There are more shotguns in the uk than any other type of gun . A lot easier to get as well than other types of gun . But obviously they won't ban their own hobbies will they !!!

Just because its illegal wont stop criminals and murderers getting hold of them if they want to , as proven with drugs, illegal cigarettes ,DVDs , fake clothes . Instead of amending laws and banning things , secure our borders , up the customs staff and spend that time and effort on enforcing the laws we slready have in place !!

Ranting from n london yet again !!!!!!!!

[bankz5152]

Oh hell. I saw this.

 

Yes of course a .22 semi auto ruger is exactly the same as a 5.56 Bushmaster.

 

Yep praying on idiots to ruin our fun! You could do more damage with a crossbow.

 

I F&&king hate the redtop papers full of total - words that cannot be said on this form -

 

 

Guns are not often the problem, its all about gun control and the surrounding laws. I mean look at Aus, they seem to have done it well, at least better than others.

 

You can own most firearms but its all heavily controlled and the firearm death is less than the UK where guns by worldwide standards are pretty scarce.

[bankz5152]

Oh hell. I saw this.

 

Yes of course a .22 semi auto ruger is exactly the same as a 5.56 Bushmaster and of course they dont mention all the licensing and everything else involved before getting one!

 

I mean if you have the right 'defence' you can buy a .50cal rifle!

 

Yep praying on idiots to ruin our fun! You could do more damage with a crossbow.

 

I F&&king hate the redtop papers full of total - words that cannot be said on this form -

 

 

Guns are not often the problem, its all about gun control and the surrounding laws. I mean look at Aus, they seem to have done it well, at least better than others.

 

You can own most firearms but its all heavily controlled and the firearm death is less than the UK where guns by worldwide standards are pretty scarce.

[my_plague_666]

I'm afraid to say, in the most respectful way possible. You are an idiot.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932012)

 

there you go, 25 fatalities and over 100 injuries from mass school stabbings where guns are not available.

 

that's rich coming from mr 'blunt knives are fine for cooking use' 

 

well done though, for a brief moment i felt like a bit of a tit there. i was thinking more about this country or other western countries, i can't recall hearing of any mass stabbings in the UK anyway. wasn't aware of this going on in china. 

 

but then i added up all the injuries and fatalities from mass shootings in america (which let's bear in mind is also a less densely populated country, probably with better healthcare too) over the same 2010 - 2012 period and i make the total to be: 100 dead, 91 injured. so in a country with fewer people, a more stable social climate and better healthcare (this goes for both treatment of victims and treatment of mental issues with the killers) there were 4 times as many deaths! lets also take into account that several of these attacks in china were copycat attacks made within days of each other, the mass killings in the states weren't connected as far as i'm aware.

[WhiteHawksan]

hey, my shiny sharp chef's knife was in the post, ergo I had no choice but to use blunt cutlery until it arrived. The disadvantage of moving house there. And you can cut onions, sure finely dicing might have been a bit tricky, but a broad enough cut wasn't all that hard. But it's more the point that we don't NEED dangerous sharp knives in our kitchens, but we choose to. a paring knife will cut onions fine and be of the 3" or less length. But we like having long sharp and deadly knives in our kitchen, I sure do.

 

The reason I picked China was because of how illegal guns are there, I.e. no guns  ever. EVER. Not even fake ones that look like guns. It was more to show that people will take whatever is available when they flip out, be it tanks, bombs, guns, knives, tractors (yes I remember reading somewhere about a tractor rampage) or even a hefty rock. 

 

In counter to your argument about guns having no use and being quite dangerous. Lets take our humble cricket bat. It has NO use whatsoever outside of recreation, I'm fairly sure that it's been responsible for quite a few deaths and injuries, it's widely available. so why not ban it? Society as we know it won't collapse from the loss of cricket, Lord knows [pun intended] that sunday afternoon might be a bit less cultured but I think we'll survive.

[spetsnazdave87]

There are a lot of baseball bats sold in the UK considering barely anyone plays baseball...

[Baddbaz]

Exactly my point as well !!! Add in swords , yet another sport / pastime , baseball bats , steel toe capped boots ( can easily cave in someone's head if used in violence .. The list can go on and all of these have no use out of the place they are designed to be used . But all fairly lethal in their own rights if used for violence . !!

Go back to china many moons ago when no commoner was allowed to have weopons . What did the people do , improvised and made their own !! Sai daggers ( originally wheel pins for carts ) rice flails ( nunchucks ) along with many others

Every one lethal and easily capable of killing someone , usually a fully armed soldier

[hitmanNo2]

That guy killed in Thailand recently.  Homemade gun.  They're staggeringly easy to make.

[Azubi]

It's like banning computers with access to the Internet because it allows peadophiles easier access to indecent images of children.

[Baddbaz]

The most dangerous thing par one homemade gun we took of a guy in a club , was a Hilti bolt gun which had been modded to fire serrated steel piercing bolts at people .ferocious weopon that would have done major damage to someone and it was clip fed , we fired it at a very solid table and it went through like butter . What did the guy who had it get sentenced to , 3months prison , absolutly insane ,,,,

[shmook]

^thats the thing. With a bit of thought, many things can be easily adapted, or just used without alteration, to *fruitcage* people up. We use Hilti guns at work, and paslode guns too, which wouldn't take much to alter into 10+ shot semi autos. No range, but would be messy in a crowded area.

 

I have a shotgun license, but could do far more damage with a bat, and far more quickly, if so inclined.

 

The sun *fruitcage*ed this article up, facts were wrong, but there will be no apology or new article saying they were wrong, as that isn't going to get readers. Once it's been said, it's hard to unsay. Folk will see the article and make up their minds. Their narrow little minds.

 

Unfortunately, the news is a golden source if information for the great unwashed who blithely read with a closed mind...

[Baddbaz]

That's why they put pictures in the tabloids because half the people who buy them struggle to actualy read in the first place ......

[my_plague_666]

hey, my shiny sharp chef's knife was in the post, ergo I had no choice but to use blunt cutlery until it arrived. The disadvantage of moving house there. And you can cut onions, sure finely dicing might have been a bit tricky, but a broad enough cut wasn't all that hard. But it's more the point that we don't NEED dangerous sharp knives in our kitchens, but we choose to. a paring knife will cut onions fine and be of the 3" or less length. But we like having long sharp and deadly knives in our kitchen, I sure do.

 

In counter to your argument about guns having no use and being quite dangerous. Lets take our humble cricket bat. It has NO use whatsoever outside of recreation, I'm fairly sure that it's been responsible for quite a few deaths and injuries, it's widely available. so why not ban it? Society as we know it won't collapse from the loss of cricket, Lord knows [pun intended] that sunday afternoon might be a bit less cultured but I think we'll survive.

 

 

i still maintain that sharp blades in the kitchen is down to safety. less pressure to cut = more control = less chance of slipping at cutting yourself. ask any professional chef and they will tell you that you'd be stupid to use a blunt knife for cooking.

 

i honestly don't understand how you're talking about a cricket bat as if it's just as dangerous as a gun. most things have the potential to be deadly weapons, but that doesn't mean they're all just as efficient. a gun is clearly far more effective and efficient at dealing death and as such should be controlled and restricted far more than the cricket bat. saying "sporting equipment is readily available so why shouldn't guns be?" sounds like the equivalent of an american saying "guns are readily available over here, so why shouldn't i be allowed to own an ICBM?"

 

i'd just like to make sure you realise, i dont think guns should be flat out banned, but they definitely need to be heavily controlled and restricted. i think people should have to attend courses, take exams, have mental evaluations etc before being allowed a firearm, possibly even have criteria for what is and what isn't acceptable cause to own a gun (e.g. hunting and firing ranges = OK, 'in case i need to shoot someone' = not OK). if you're going to give someone that amount of power and responsibility then you should make sure that they're ready for it.

[Baddbaz]

In the uk legal guns are already heavily restricted . A licence application will involve a visit from your local firearms officers . a criminal record check / delve into your background and associates . A security check on your required gun safe and then and only then will your case come up for consideration to own any firearms .. Also required is a legitimate purpose to own any firearms .. Ie gun club membership , vermin control purpose , ie farm owner , employee ..

Our laws are already some of the strictest in the world for firearm ownership . This is not the major issue here ...

Illegal firearms are the main problem in the uk , not legaly held weopons . And that is where our slack laws and useless sentencing come into the equation , same for knife crime ,, rioters got issued with bigger sentences for pinching tins of beans and food stuff , and disorder , shame the sentences are not as severe for carrying a knife in this country .

Maybe if a few really harsh examples are made the message will get through to today's youth .

You carry a knife or gun and a mandatory 4 year sentence will be yours to enjoy . No buts or maybes ,,,,,if you commit a crime or harm someone with a knife it should be a minimum of 8 years with no parole ,early release or other lighter. Sentencing options , gun law sentencing should be the same with heavier sentences but the same no parole etc

[DWZippy]

Hell, if somebody wants to go all doo-lally and kill a bunch of folk, some of the swords and knives you can legally buy in the UK are probably better for the task than a .22 OR a crossbow. 

 

While this was the case, much much harder to get your hands on swords now. I used to collect them [got an attic full of the *fruitcage*ers] but it's illegal to sell the decent ones now, so if you buy a sword in a shop it'll likely break if you try to use it or desheath it too often. 

 

A few years back though.. well, as a 14 year old boy I had a wall full of swords of pretty much every type you can imagine [A matsume bigger than I was for a while] - UK government are idiots. 

[hitmanNo2]

I thought it was the other way around.  Cheap tat was no go.  Legit, proper swords were OK?

[shmook]

i still maintain that sharp blades in the kitchen is down to safety. less pressure to cut = more control = less chance of slipping at cutting yourself. ask any professional chef and they will tell you that you'd be stupid to use a blunt knife for cooking.

 saying "sporting equipment is readily available so why shouldn't guns be?" sounds like the equivalent of an american saying "guns are readily available over here, so why shouldn't i be allowed to own an ICBM?"

 

Over here, guns are sporting equipment. You shoot targets, or game. Speak to your FEO, saying "I want a gun to defend myself against bad guys", and it won't be taken very well...

 

In the uk legal guns are already heavily restricted . Also required is a legitimate purpose to own any firearms ..

Not shotguns. The police need to find a reason why not, not you having to justify why. I appreciate you said 'firearms' and not 'shotguns', as here they are classed differently, but many folk may not know that

 

We are not heavily restricted, but heavily controlled...

[Azubi]

if you're going to give someone that amount of power and responsibility then you should make sure that they're ready for it.

And yet every single day, millions and millions of Yanks are proving they are capable of showing responsibility of firearm ownership by respecting that power and not misusing their firearms. If mere humans weren't capable of being so responsible with all that power like you seem to be suggesting, there would be a lot more dead people in the US. However, what are the figures? 60 million gun owners in the US? 99.9999% of gun owners there aren't committing crimes or massacring school children.

[FireKnife]

And yet every single day, millions and millions of Yanks are proving they are capable of showing responsibility of firearm ownership by respecting that power and not misusing their firearms. If mere humans weren't capable of being so responsible with all that power like you seem to be suggesting, there would be a lot more dead people in the US. However, what are the figures? 60 million gun owners in the US? 99.9999% of gun owners there aren't committing crimes or massacring school children.

 

Always a very good point, plus you do end up with a state of 'do I dare try, for all I know that guy over there is Jim Zubiena in disguise and he is going to put three in me faster than I can blink'. You have to be a pretty far gone person to try such a thing when everyone else around you could be armed too. This though doesn't lead to giving a gun to every teacher mind you, but it does lead to finding ways to give that same deterence.

 

It is not the best system, making sure that everyone keeps everyone else under surveillance by being armed. But as it has been that way in the US since the early days of its founding it isn't going to change. We as a nation have not had the same way of life, guns have always been a tool or an item of war for us and thus they haven't got the same laws. The only issue is this means we don't have such a foolproof way to combat illegal firearms, but then arming all citizens would lead to other issues as we are not used to it.

 

Just my idea.

 

'FireKnife'