heroshark Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Sorry guys but I have to get this off my chest and I want your opinions, I'll try keep it short. So the story goes I order a rif of a well known and respected retailer .Arrives the next day brilliant, I open the package to find it's not the gun I wanted not briliant .All be it similar the gun has a different receiver with white screen printed trades (not cast/engraved) and lacking another detail .I don't want to be too specific as it may give it away and I'm not here to name and shame. It was not the gun that was pictured on the website ,infact I held the version I was after as a friend of mine had got one and pointed me in this retailers direction to get one. So after a few emails and a phone call they say the supplier had switched the model on them and they've only just noticed .Not only that they can no longer get the original model as seen on the site. Just to add to the *suitcase* I have to pay for it's return also my refund is minus their original postage. For a gun I didn't *fruitcage* order and wouldn't have ,had they been displaying the correct *fruitcage* image on the site. Is this right ,is that reasonable ? Rant over ,thank you for reading. Link to post Share on other sites
hitmanNo2 Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Something, something, trade descriptions act...See what their response is then. Link to post Share on other sites
Hatchet Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Not reasonable, no. Distance selling regulations The original cost of the outbound postage to you should always be refunded by the seller. The seller's terms and conditions or returns policy should state who pays the cost of returning the item. If they don't state this, then the seller has to cover the cost. In this case, you're entitled to a refund of the total amount you paid, including costs to ship the item to you, and the fee to return the item. No admin or restocking fees should be charged. TBH I'd expect a decent retailer, having verified that it's their mistake, to pick up the costs as a goodwill gesture even if they didn't have to. This generally would be preferable to the negative publicity they might otherwise receive. Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy404 Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Only seems to be airsoft companies that treat consumers like such *suitcase*. Also had the same experience from another retailer. I kicked up a big enough stink and they sorted me out Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted October 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Off their site... Distant Selling Regulation / Unwanted Items: Any items returned under DSR must be "AS NEW",un-opened, un-used and in the original, undamaged packaging, with all items from the original packaging including the complimentary packet of BB's. Contact us immediately if you are returning under the DSR rule. We will not accept any returns without confirmation. It is the responsibility of the customer to make sure they return all items to us at their expense. But the fact remains the picture was of a different gun to what I received ,and I wouldn't have ordered it had it been the correct image on their webite. Link to post Share on other sites
FTZ-WildeCard Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Was PayPal involved? They'd take your side with regards to the item not being as described. Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted October 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Unfortunatly not bud Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Only seems to be airsoft companies that treat consumers like such *suitcase*. Also had the same experience from another retailer. I kicked up a big enough stink and they sorted me out Really? I have been treated poorly as a customer by garages, model shops, Games Workshop, non-airsoft outdoor based shops and a handful of eBay 'shops'. True airsofters do have some companies that are cocks (SAS and Z1 leap to mind) but we do have some good ones that should know better. Was PayPal involved? They'd take your side with regards to the item not being as described. Sadly not, as the 'it's a gun we sent' line still works even for retailers. Just depends ho harsh they want to be. However there is, buried somewhere, a section of trade descriptions regarding distance selling and that an item must match the description in all aspects given, picture included. If it is still the wrong picture then get a screengrab with all the info you can and offer the company a choice. Either they pay for the return or you take further action, 99% of companies will sooner settle for paying the extra £10 or so it would cost them than anything else. Out of curiosity what gun was it that you ordered. I would assume something AR as these are the most common for sudden manufacturer or design changes it seems (I have seen a generic 'sportline' CyberGun AR-15 go from being a CA to an ICS to a CYMA and then even a KA, all in the same basic box over the years). 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted October 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 yep I screen grabbed it bud . Like I say don't want to say too much yet ,but both the guns pictured and what I received are by the same manufacturer but the one that's been sent has a different shaped body white printed trades rather than cast into said body and barrel for that matter and lacking a certain other detail trade wise which I can't divulge atm otherwise I'd give it away as only this retailer is (or was should I say) stocking this particular gnu. I have emailed them. Hi, ??????? So aparrantly I have to foot the cost (including the postage to me) for this incorrect order that has been sent . That is not happening . The gun that was delivered is not the model displayed on the site when I ordered (I have saved the image for future reference if needed ),had it been I would not have ordered it . This lands the responsability for the cost of its return at your door I think. Now I can post it back and you refund me plus the value of return postage ,or you can arrange a pick up from the original address. If this is Not possible I would like an explanation of why my requirements cannot be met by somebody in charge.And I don't want to hear about ??????? T&C's as they don't mean anything when I have been sent the wrong product ,especially as the it's not the one pictured on the site at the point of purchace. Cheers, Sharky Sound ok? Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Sounds a bit like you are annoyed in that message and that might not come across correctly in just text. But you do have a valid point and I can't blame you for being honest that it is an irritation in the first place. I would just send a very formal message, no hint of humour, sarcasm or any tone at all really but be clear about what you think and if they are resonable then great. If not then take it further and then tell us who they are. Maybe it has happened before with the same company and you can see other peoples resolutions? 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted October 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 I am annoyed ,and I've told them straight no insults just simple facts. If they find my message snippy it is, but that's no reasonable excuse to not give me what I want .The simple facts are there they sent me the wrong item and miss repesented it on the site via the image used ,wether they mean't deceive/fob me off or not. Link to post Share on other sites
badwitchproject Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Under the Distance Selling Regulations they are responsible for selling you the correct item, if they send you the wrong item without informing you then they are responsible for the return. The issue is a lot of retailers will ask you to return the item at your cost and they will then reimburse you for it after they get a copy of the receipt. I would take a softer approach and apologise if you seemed snappy, then explain that you just want to return it for either the correct item or a full refund including return postage as is your rights under Distance Selling Regulations and they are wholly responsible. For more info check out http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations?gclid=Cj0KEQjwzK6hBRCbzLz_r_f-3tkBEiQA-zyWsC2ZriwR6Py-E_ABhh-x11XF24DN5jqN4BlkbIAmCmcaAmDL8P8HAQ Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Thanks bud .Can't find anything on there regarding incorrect images used which is really the crux of the matter although its does cover the postage thing. Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Sorted . Gonna be picked up and a full refund given .I didn't really expect to work this hard to get it considering the circumstances & who it was from but there we go. Thank you to anybody involved whos reading this & all you guys for your advice. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
FTZ-WildeCard Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 The point is: the colour of an item (simplifying things here massively) is an attribute that is part of why you selected it. I don't agree with FK on "it's the gun we sent" line as imagine you bought a sweater in grey and it turned up in white. Same design, wrong colour - it's as simple as that. The onus here is on the retailer - it's to prevent them screwing over anyone through distance sales where you don't get to see what you are buying first hand (worth noting even in bricks and mortar shops there's usually a consumer friendly return policy anyway and none of that is actually due to the law. It's just a nicety they offer). Try badwitchproject's approach above. Worst comes to worst maybe take the return postage cost on the chin then dish up a review of the retailer on here; if they aren't willing to own up to a mistake and foot the costs like they should you are rightly entitled to complain about it and share your view with the world. Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 I don't agree with FK on "it's the gun we sent" line as imagine you bought a sweater in grey and it turned up in white. That was not my point. That point was regarding the way that you can get around Paypal's refunding process by using words like 'gun' and 'firearm' as Paypal specifically doesn't cover these and if it is found out that is what has been bought they just wash their hands of it, business or private seller. But as Paypal wasn't used it isn't really necessary to this conversation. If it is the wrong anything, even down to the wrong flash-hider then I would expect a replacement to be sent by the company or a refund as would anyone else. To ask for it to be sent back on your behalf with or without mention of a refund is not good at all. Surely as well most shops would have business account with couriers that allows you to simply re-wrap and return items using the sender address on the old package? 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
Rob15 Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Surely as well most shops would have business account with couriers that allows you to simply re-wrap and return items using the sender address on the old package? Not necessarily, infact I don't think any couriers will come and collect a parcel FOC based purely on a senders return address, normally a returns licence number has to be setup by the seller which allows Royal Mail/courier to bill the seller for the cost of collection and delivery back to them, that's very common with large online retailers these days, particually clothes retailers who expect large amounts of returns but with any UK airsoft retailer being classed as 'small' it's unsuprising that I've not seen one that sends free return labels with orders. All that said any seller with a debit/credit card can directly arrange for a courier to collect a parcel from a customer and deliver it back to them. For small parcels I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the customer to post it back then refund the cost after though which is what I do for faulty items, it saves waiting around for a courier collection (which I've done many times for returns, and a couple of times the courier never turned up), then again I have only had one item returned as faulty in over 4 years and even that didn't turn out to be faulty at all Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 I don't mean ones that send labels out and such but I recall that you can have it setup so that you just head to the nearest PO / RM / PF office and quote a code or something and have it returned based on an address given at the time of the company setting up the business account and they would just be charged the standard fees against them rather than the customer. Ok it means you have to do the leg work but I do recall being told about such service which is part of a basic business setup that RM / PF offer (at least that was back when my Dad worked as a post-master for them). Might not be valid now but I do recall that it is a service that is available for little extra than a business account. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
Rob15 Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 I don't mean ones that send labels out and such but I recall that you can have it setup so that you just head to the nearest PO / RM / PF office and quote a code or something and have it returned based on an address given at the time of the company setting up the business account and they would just be charged the standard fees against them rather than the customer. It's pretty much the same thing as far as I'm aware, the Post Office don't need a label but they do need the licence number, some businesses just choose to print that licence number on a label with the return address to make it a tiny bit easier for customers. If any of the UK airsoft shops I've bought from have a returns licence number they've not made it obvious and probably only issue it on request if they do so people don't return unwanted items at the sellers cost rather than just faulty ones. As I've said though, all UK airsoft shops are 'small' businesses so a returns licence number isn't something I'd expect them to have, doesn't mean they're not able to arrange a collection though. Link to post Share on other sites
FTZ-WildeCard Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 That was not my point. Gotcha. About that - I was re-reading the PayPal terms, as the whole "it's a gun" thing gets bandied around a lot. The specific wording on PayPal's terms is as follows: "Prohibited Activities You may not use the PayPal service for activities that: 2. relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, ( drug paraphernalia, © items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law." I've highlighted the part I think is appropriate to this conversation in red. When opening a dispute, PayPal will request the URL for where the item was purchased. Assuming we're talking about RIFs here and you send a link to a page where it clearly says this is a replica rather than a real fire arm - doesn't that bring this back in under PayPals cover? To say airsoft guns are firearms is a falsity, and to call them weapons is also not correct. Ultimately I guess it up to PayPal to enforce their terms, but I thought it was interesting to revisit it now. Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Yeah I have seen that before but the main issue is that Paypal does a lot of blanket assumptions, as do other companies. They see a gun as a gaun as a gun. If it looks real safe bet is to assume it is and take no responsibility as the middle man. It is really just an example of loopholing and just who is on your side. I am sure if you dragged that up with a third party they would claim Paypal is within their rights to do such a thing. But that is another tale for another topic for another time . 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 So, wait a minute, if you breach their terms and conditions, they don't take (any) action against you? They just leave it alone and hope all parties have learnt a lesson . . . Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 So, wait a minute, if you breach their terms and conditions, they don't take (any) action against you? They just leave it alone and hope all parties have learnt a lesson . . . They more step out of it and say 'deal with it in your own time'. For them breaching of terms and conditions is sometimes easier to just not get involved and leave it down to the buyer / seller. It is only when an item doesn't breach T&Cs that they do what they think is their best to resolve it. Sounds stupid but they are a middle man group, not either end, they can by right leave the situation should it be known to them that you have broke the T&Cs. I am sure if they could they would sneak other things onto the T&C list to make it so they can back out of other issues when they feel like it rather than get involved. Plus to give them a little, tiny bit of credit, it is hard to be middle man to two idiots raging away that they have been screwed over by the other so a get out clause does help there. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Seeing as they like money and if you breach their terms and conditions, surely they could sue? Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Could do, nothing to stop them. Unless of course because the term firearm is so broad they could be doing a 'we are not going to get involved' but if you actually press the case then they have to. Perhaps it is just one of those things that as no-one has persued it, no-one knows the real possible outcome? But as far as I have seen the first response from Paypal seems to be 'oh, its a gun, well that's us out then, bye'. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
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