Difference in Western Arms systems?

[Safeword]

Not sure if there's another thread about this, but if it is, please delete this one.

 

Recently I have bought a few Western Arms pistols and was wondering if someone could tell me more about the different SCW systems.

I see some of the magazines have plastic feed lip but others have the whole metal body of the magazine as the feed lip.

 

There's also the Magna system and from what I could find, is not made in Japan and have the SCW 3 system, they are also lighter and not heavyweight. 

 

Is there any easy way to find out what SCW system my pistols have and are one system better than the other?

[renegadecow]

Magna has the cylindrical valve knocker below where the real firing pin would be.

SCW had the the valve knocker pinned to the hammer and 1-3 had different looking knockers which progressively made them more concealed for a realistic look.

Dunno about plastic feed lips, never seen any myself.

[Safeword]

I see, thanks for the info 

 

 

Also, a picture of the different magazines I gotten with the guns, they are all the same size and they all work in all the different guns without problems

 

[garry]

These always were a tad confusing, but from memory..

 

The scw1 had the separate frame mounted firing pin, and was probably the most reliable system they used.

WA used to go for realism as much as possible. For example on most gbb's when you try to manually drop the hammer and de-cock, the gun will still try to fire. On the scw1, the firing pin when manually de-cocking was meant to drop into a slot under the hammer to prevent this. However, it was not a reliable system in that respect and the gun would still on occasion try to fire.

 

On the scw2, they modified the system by building the firing pin into the hammer and it acted like an inertia system. You could now reliably de-cock the gun realistically without it going off.

 

On the scw3 this system was just modified slightly for even further improved reliability and reduce the chance of light strikes, which the scw2 did suffer sometimes.

 

Scw3 is the same as the magna system.

The "magna", or "magna tech" series were a cheaper more entry level gun, aimed at stealing business from the likes of TM etc.

I don't think the magna series were made in Japan, but outsourced to others in possibly Taiwan?

 

There was a reasonable difference in quality between the magna series and the Japan made guns. The magna's were lighter, less well finished and not as realistic. The internals however, were still very good.

 

There were also changes in the hop systems and inner barrels in the various scw series.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, this is from memory - although over the years I have owned maybe 15 or so WA's.

[mimesis]

So with all these different designs, to what extent are 1911 magazines interchangeable?  Even though a magazine may be described as for one model, will it work in all the others?  (I suppose this comes down to: is the outlet valve in the same position on all of them?)

[icolater]

Also SCW 3 had no adjustable hop, it was fixed!

[garry]

So with all these different designs, to what extent are 1911 magazines interchangeable?  Even though a magazine may be described as for one model, will it work in all the others?  (I suppose this comes down to: is the outlet valve in the same position on all of them?)

I can't remember compatibility exactly. I do remember that there were issues in swapping them around though.  

Fairly sure I had one of the older 15 rnd mags that would not work in the scw 2 or 3. It fitted ok etc, but always seemed to suffer light strikes. Like you say, outlet valve not quite in the same position.

[Safeword]

Had a look at mine, the left is the newest Hardballer that WA made, the right one is a Colt Delta Elite and I can see the difference in the firing pin.

 

My WA Colt 1911A1 is magna and I was confused seeing "Made in Taiwan" on the box and that gun is a lot lighter than all the others, but I got nothing to say on the finish, it's really well mad, I wrote a little about it here: http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/164401-1911-picture-thread/?p=2748391

 

 

[hitmanNo2]

Yeah, that Delta Elite is SCW1.

 

All mags should work in all guns.  The older R-Type/Magna 15rd mags might work slightly better in the the R-Type guns but the difference is negligible most of the time I have found.

 

Magnatech is/was the cheaper range.

[renegadecow]

I'm confused. Which one uses the cylindrical valve knocker?

[hitmanNo2]

R-Type/Magna uses the cylindrical valve knocker.  SCW1 looks similar but it is a squared off, protruding knocker as opposed to the Magna pin type.

 

Magna left, SCW1 right.

 

[garry]

Man this gets confuzzling when you've not had a WA for so long.

Just managed to find some of my old scans..

 

The old Magna, or Magna blowback system (as stated) used the cylindrical firing pin.

 

The scw1 used a similar setup, but the firing pin was a different shape and config to allow the gun to be de-cocked without firing.

This is a pic I had of the scw1 firing pin.

 

 

The scw1 system did not always work properly and the gun would still sometimes fire when de-cocking the hammer, so they came up with the scw2 inertia type hammer system, where the firing pin was pinned / made part of the hammer.

 

scw2 firing pin

 

 

This had light strike issues sometimes, so was modded again and became scw3

 

scw3 firing pin

 

 

There were other changes through the series as well including hop systems etc.

Another confusion was WA calling the cheaper guns the magnatech, making some think it had the old magna system, but it didn't, it used scw3.

 

Have I made things worse or better?.....

[Safeword]

Damn I had no idea WA were so complicated 

 

Glad I made this thread because I have learned a lot now 

[renegadecow]

Partly why most folks just turn to TM.

 

But mostly because of the price.

[hitmanNo2]

I suppose it can be a bit confusing for newbies but give me a WA over a TM any day.  

[Mobius Strip]

So nice to see a Western Arms thread

 

WA 1911 'recent' chronology in order:

 

Magna (HW-R), November 1998~October 2003

Rod type firing pin, original Magna blowback, adjustable HOP

 

SCW1, October 2003~July/September 2004.

Rectangular firing pin with slot (transfer hammer system), redesigned piston and longer blowback chamber, improved adjustable HOP

 

SCW2, July 2004 (SVI) / September 2004 (single stack)~December 2005

Hook shaped firing pin, redesigned piston and longer blowback chamber, improved adjustable HOP

 

SCW3, December 2005~ present

Triangular shaped firing pin, redesigned piston and longer blowback chamber, fixed HOP, new design sear, leaf spring and lower disconnector.

 

Other sub systems:

Magnatech - the cheaper SCW3 line

SCW3/Magna Hybrid: Some SV's were built like this; these have SCW3 HOP and the original Magna blowback (for simplicity).

 

During the Magna blowback years SCW (Shibuya Custom Works) was the internal custom shop doing limited production specials using the Magna system as a whole.

 

When the new blowback/HOP improvements were first introduced the entire line was then referred to as SCW. Yes it is confusing. More so, because WA's latest adverts shows the Magna blowback logo (SCW being the latest generation of Magna - which is WA's patent design) perhaps giving the impression that they may be using the old(er) Magna system......which of course some (e.g. SCW3/Magna hybrid used on some SV's) of them are! For a pure SCW3, look for 'SCW High-Spec ver.3'

 

The SCW blowback mechanism gives increased and faster recoil than the old Magna system thanks to the longer chamber and redesigned piston (A Magna single stacker with an ABS slide, such as the Gilded V12, with its lightweight slide allows a very fast blowback, but does not have the punch of the later SCW's). Also SCW blowback incorporates the GCS - Gas Control System, which essentially detects over pressure and shuts the gas supply thus giving a similar recoil in varying temperatures/pressures.

 

The R-Type hybrid uses the old style Magna blowback chamber, original firing pin system but newer SCW3 HOP. The SCW3 HOP requires the use of SCW3's weaker floating valve spring.

 

WA chose the old style firing pin and Magna blowback for simplicity, (and I suspect, as well as many screaming for it ). The newer SCW blowback incorporates the GCS - Gas Control System, which essentially detects over pressure and shuts the gas supply thus giving a similar recoil in varying temperatures/pressures. There are many "GCS cancellation devices" (such as PROG4's Blow Piston), to eliminate this for those that don't want it and essentially turn the SCW chamber into a larger, simpler Magna type system. I have installed these myself on many guns.

 

 

 

Frames:- SCW1s' firing pin system had a few problems with the flimsy lift spring getting caught up and damaged, and sometimes when you dropped the hammer with out a mag in, then went to re-insert the mag, the firing pin remained protruding and could catch on the mag (if the lift spring didn't do it's job). It was complicated and expensive to produce. That said, I have SCW1 system guns that run perfectly well after years of service. Try putting one in a metal kit though.....what a pain!

 

SCW2 was a simpler replacement and intended to be more reliable. It used a spring loaded pendulum type firing pin attached to the hammer.

 

WA's reason for change from SCW 2 to SCW 3 was two-fold, to improve reliability and consistency. An argument can be put forward as to whether this was necessary and for the benefits of 3 over 2 and vice versa, I'll explain.

 

Reliability (A)- After small reports of the odd light strikes with SCW 2, WA redesigned the lower disconnector, firing pin, firing pin spring and sear to make sure that the firing pin hit the mag valve every time. Any light striking on the part of SCW 2 was actually to do with the firing pin spring being too strong and causing the firing pin to flip up before it's hit the valve - simply removing would give reliable strikes every time. The proper solution is a slightly weaker/correct tension f/p spring, although a stronger hammer spring can sometimes compensate for the too weak f/p spring.

Early SCW 2 guns shared the Magna sear. It was soon realised that the SCW2 firing pin could potentially clip a small portion on the nose of the sear bumping the firing pin up past the ideal strike spot causing a light strike. This corner portion on the nose was subsequently cut out on later production guns. It is an easy modification if you have an earlier gun.

Of the all the SCW 2 that I have encountered, only a handful have ever had this light strike problem. It can be cured with new/different parts as mentioned above.

 

Reliability (B ) Lowering the hammer on a mag already in the gun. If the f/p spring is too weak or removed; as the hammer is lowered it will hit the mag valve and squirt a little gas (much like quite a few other makes!) WA want you to lower the hammer incident free, and SCW 3 accomplishes this with its redesigned parts. SCW2 will do this reliably, but as mentioned before the f/p spring controls this and you very occasionally get an out of spec one. Of course, dropping the hammer with no mag in situ and replacing the mag (safe gun handling anyone?) means there is no problem anyway.

 

SCW 3 has its own set of issues. GCS and its effect on the floating valve spring as mentioned (see previous notes). On the frame I have seen the reshaped firing pin carve into the sear essentially jamming into it meaning the hammer stops short of hitting the magazine valve. Light striking issues seem to be compounded when fitting a metal slide and frame.

Lots of people like SCW2 over 3 and vise versa. When fitting metal kits to guns, sometimes I cannot get the SCW3 frame parts 100% reliable when transferred, and as I personally find it easier to problem solve when using SCW2 frame parts, (i.e. sear, leaf spring, upper disconnector, firing pin, firing pin spring), have fitted SCW2 lowers and SCW3 slide uppers.

 

Hammers are only interchangeable between SCW 2 and 3 if you elongate the central groove on the SCW 2 hammer, not the easiest to do unless you have a steady hand and the right tools (sears are not so watch out if you're buying the set!)

 

SCW3 Has a slightly lighter rocket/floating valve spring than SCW1&2 to match the lighter fixed HOP barrel BB retention.

 

Slides are the same for SCW 1,2, and 3.

 

Firing pins and springs are different on all 4 systems.

 

Most lower frame parts are the same from Magna to SCW3, (see firing pins) but 3 uses lots of unique parts- sear, leaf spring, lower disconnector, hammer etc.

 

Sights and blowback mechs attach in different ways from Magna to SCW.

 

 

Magazine nomenclature:

 

R-type: Reverse type valve

NLS: Non Liquidation System, this is the plate and tube fitted inside larger mags that stops liquid gas squirting from the ejection port and barrel should you choose to fire your gun upside down etc.

 

The magazine exhaust valves on the SCW series of magazines can be identified by their 5mm silver heads. SCW1 guns were supplied with integral metal lipped mags, SCW2 onwards had plastic lipped mags. The R-type magazines will be either the earlier 4mm silver heads or the more common later black valves with 4.5mm heads. The was a transitional period during the SCW1 phase where WA supplied metal lipped mags with the SCW 5mm silver exhaust valves. The 5mm silver head valves actually have the 1st shoulder machined further down so that the valve can lock open earlier/with a lesser strike. Note, SCW mags still use a reverse type valve, but are the latest generation.

 

So for single stackers (from R type)

 

Early R type - Integral metal lips, silver valve with 4mm head

Late R type - Integral metal lips, black valve with 4.5mm head

SCW 1 - Integral metal lips, silver valve with 5mm head

SCW 2 -Plastic lips, silver valve with 5mm head

SCW 3 -Plastic lips, silver valve with 5mm head

 

SCW mags are recommended for SCW guns or the previous R types, this is because SCW firing pins strike harder but not as deep and when the weather warms up you may encounter light strikes with R type mags in SCW guns (for the reason mentioned above) which is why WA introduced the new valve!

 

WA have improved the gas retention of the SCW mags, although I have seen many leaks with R types, relatively few with SCW.

Also in my experience, any SCW mags that have leaked, tend to stay leak free once silicone grease is applied to the seals.

 

On the downside, the SCW OE magazine lips break easily and will double or treble feed in time, certainly when used with metal slide and frame kits. I cannot recommend enough, the stronger aftermarket magazine lips made by PGC which cure this totally. WA changed the composition of the plastic used on the SCW3 mag lips during 2008 to a better fibre reinforced material.

[garry]

Great post Mobius,

 

I love WA, but just got fed up in the end with the difficulty in getting either spares or magazines.

I had maybe 20 of them at one point - sadly all gone now!

[Mobius Strip]

Thanks Garry.

 

I am partial to metal kits, but alas manufacturers have pretty much now moved over to TM, KSC etc.

 

WA kind of priced themselves out of the skirmishing market for most and the lack of aftermarket support makes it really difficult for customers both new and old

[Safeword]

Really nice post, I was just about to write a question about the magazines, my newest WA, the MARSOC, came with a magazine with integral metal lips, this pistol is not that old and I bought it second hand, could this mean it came with an older magazine and not the original?

[hitmanNo2]

Yep.  That won't be the original mag.

[garry]

Thanks Garry.

 

I am partial to metal kits, but alas manufacturers have pretty much now moved over to TM, KSC etc.

 

WA kind of priced themselves out of the skirmishing market for most and the lack of aftermarket support makes it really difficult for customers both new and old

I agree mate. WA did themselves no favours in the end. I remember when Mike Cripps was pretty much 100% WA.

Shame really, as the WA's were pretty much the most reliable ggb's I've owned overall. The heavyweight ones were very impressive.

[icolater]

It's a pity they are not more widely available like in the past, I had a good few wa 1911s, got rid of mine because I found the marui system was better catered for and preferred the simpler design which is more user friendly. Also adjustable hop is a must for me. But the amount of cool wa 1911s that were/are released is amazing, I still visit wa gunnet the odd time for old time sake.

[Katotaka]

I believe the "names" are referring to something else:
 
Magna - Name of patented blowback system, uses a dart-shaped floating valve protruding out in front of the loading nozzle to control gas cut-off to barrel.

WA even uses the name in their webpage header.

 

The system was licensed to Tanaka for making few GBB pistols, mainly SIG P226/228 and some HK models, IIRC.
 
http://capricononetwodon.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-222.html
http://page12.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/p512231040
 
R-Type - Name of side scrolling shooting game series difficult as hell the straw sticking out of inlet valve, inside magazine gas tank. Interestingly this limits the volume of liquid gas allowed in the magazine, prevents over-charging which results bursting white cloud while shooting.
edit: ouch, seems my memory was not that well. Checked again and found out the straw should be referred as NLS as posted in the previous page.
 
The name "R-Type Magazine" is still used in their more recent AR series pages, or "R-Type Valve" in magazine page:
http://www.wa-gunnet.co.jp/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=1327&language=ja
http://www.wa-gunnet.co.jp/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=278&language=ja

[Mobius Strip]

I believe the "names" are referring to something else:

 

Magna - Name of patented blowback system, uses a dart-shaped floating valve protruding out in front of the loading nozzle to control gas cut-off to barrel.

WA even uses the name in their webpage header.

 

"......WA's latest adverts shows the Magna blowback logo (SCW being the latest generation of Magna - which is WA's patent design)"

 

I think we actually agree on the Magna name meaning although I appreciate my entire post was a bit, well....TL;DR. (Even I got bored proof reading it )

------

 

Don't worry about the R-type confusion, it is very common. It didn't help that a long time ago, a certain retailer used to have a page from the WA exploded diagram on their website showing how to identify an R-type magazine but with the NLS parts circled. That info then got widely circulated.

 

Back in the "good old days" when WA would answer emails and supply spares direct, they would fill in any blanks I had with regards to their product line up and history.

I do miss those days.

[Katotaka]

yep, I didn't even read the whole thread before I made the post, it's TL;DR for sure

and, yep, miss the old days, old school hi-caps are so awesome, I wish mine was still in working condition