Range of TM M4 vs. TM M16?

[TriChrome]

I find it convenient that you know changed the cylinder to an unvented one.

 

Anyway, you guys across the pond can believe whatever you want. I guess the rest of the Airsoft world is totally wrong even through we have much more experience tuning our guns for FPS and performance since there's no law against it.

 

 

Here's whay one wise person said:

 

The simple fact is, the longer something is stabilized, the more stable it will be.  An M4 don't nearly have the range of an M16, and the same is true for airsoft, just drastically scaled down.  All things being equal, a 110mm MP5K barrel is not going to be more as suited to hitting targets at range as a 510mm M16 barrel.  Trust me, I've used an MP5K in sparse woodland battle (in the winter, so no leaves), and it doesn't fare well.  Accuracy is one thing, accuracy at range is another.

[Rob15]

I find it convienent that now you're saying you changed out the cylinder on the gun for the test.

 

Yes, and he used the same one for all the barrels.

 

Thats called a "Fair test", in the UK we learn to do tests as accurate as possible by removing "variables" from the test so the item (barrel) under test is subject to the same conditions as the other barrels

[Hissing_Sid]

Anyway, you guys across the pond can believe whatever you want. I guess the rest of the Airsoft world is totally wrong even through we have much more experience tuning our guns for FPS and performance since there's no law against it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure. Go for it.

 

After all, you guys have much more experience of being wrong so go with it.

[Rob15]

Sure. Go for it.

 

After all, you guys have much more experience of being wrong so go with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Add to that we do have guns over 328fps, we just don't talk about them on here for reasons i forget

 

EDIT : added picture

[TriChrome]

Yes, and he used the same one for all the barrels.

 

Thats called a "Fair test", in the UK we learn to do tests as accurate as possible by removing "variables" from the test so the item (barrel) under test is subject to the same conditions as the other barrels

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, if he switched the cylinder to match the barrel length, like you're supposed to do on AEG's, then it would be a proper test. And used hop-up, and shot at maybe 5 yards before the maximum effective range of the gun.

 

Next you're going to tell me .2 gram BB's go further and are more accurate than .25's (and let me add "after 90 feet, and outside" so I can prove it).

[Rob15]

Actually, if he switched the cylinder to match the barrel length, like you're supposed to do on AEG's, then it would be a proper test. And used hop-up, and shot at maybe 5 yards before the maximum effective range of the gun.

 

Next you're going to tell me .2 gram BB's go further and are more accurate than .25's (and let me add "after 90 feet, and outside" so I can prove it).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1- hop-up can be inconsistant

2- a .2g bb would go futher under the same conditions as a .25g as there is less gravitational pull on it ( in theory)

 

EDIT : R22, shao, would it be alright if i made a opinion poll on this subject?

[TriChrome]

2- a .2g bb would go futher under the same conditions as a .25g as there is less gravitational pull on it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know what? You're way to easy to set-up.

 

http://www.airsoftretreat.com/features/articles/fpsweight/

 

Eat it.

 

....but who knows, the author is only a Mechanical Engineer, so he's probably an idiot who made a test up to prove himself right when the rest of the world knows he's wrong.

 

Now let's not get off topic. If you want to prove the .2 vs. .25 thing further, please have a mod seperate this into another topic.

[Rob15]

You know what? You're way to easy to set-up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought we were working on theorys here, not facts

 

EDIT : typo

[Sale]

Anyway, you guys across the pond can believe whatever you want. I guess the rest of the Airsoft world is totally wrong even through we have much more experience tuning our guns for FPS and performance since there's no law against it.

Here's whay one wise person said:

 

The simple fact is, the longer something is stabilized, the more stable it will be.  An M4 don't nearly have the range of an M16, and the same is true for airsoft, just drastically scaled down.  All things being equal, a 110mm MP5K barrel is not going to be more as suited to hitting targets at range as a 510mm M16 barrel.  Trust me, I've used an MP5K in sparse woodland battle (in the winter, so no leaves), and it doesn't fare well.  Accuracy is one thing, accuracy at range is another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't mix the UK with the rest of Europe. We have looser firearms laws in Finland than most of the USA, and absolutely no restrictions at all considering airsofts and airguns. Not even the notorious orange muzzle or suppressor bans you guys keep wrestling with.

 

If you have so much experience, where are all the tests and their results? "Well duh, my MP5 has less range than my M16!" or "I put a longer tightbore barrel on my G36C and covered it with a suppressor, it's much more accurate now! Whee!" are not much of an argument. You cannot compare different guns and different quality barrels at the same time. Otherwise I could shoot groupings with my KWC AR-15 A2 Delta HBAR and compare them with the ragged holes I shoot with my 10" (247mm) upgraded M4 shorty, and claim "Well obviously a shorter barrel is the cause of better accuracy!". Damn!

 

That Satorious guy is yet another person who can't keep the discussion in proportion. I say for the third time, there's an optimal length for a barrel. It's true in both realsteel and airsoft worlds. Shorter than this magical length will hurt accuracy, but going beyond it will not give you tighter groupings. The MP5K not only has an extremely short barrel for an AEG, but also lacks a stock, which aids both mechanical and practical accuracy. If you can't keep the MP5K out of this, I'll just have to go on saying that a 2000mm barrel is more accurate than a 509mm barrel. We all know this is nonsense!

 

Now that you've finally realized my point (I hope), care to tell me your opinion of the optimal barrel length? Assuming that there's plenty of air to push the BB through the entire length of the barrel, is an airsoft gun most accurate with a 509mm barrel? Is a 590mm or 650mm barrel even more accurate? How about 1000mm? 2000mm? If you can't answer this, you just have no grounds to what you're saying.

 

-Sale

 

P.S. When it comes to benefit in muzzle velocity, it's only marginal and you can reach the same velocity with a little harder spring. A typical skirmish limit in the US is 400 fps, even though it's not regulated by law. You can easily reach that reading no matter what length barrel you have.

 

-same

[Shao14]

Now let's not get off topic. If you want to prove the .2 vs. .25 thing further, please have a mod seperate this into another topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There have been several threads on this forum discussing the effects of weight of the BBs and the distance, especially the test Variable has done, and there's no need for more threads on that topic.

 

Fact and theory: .25g BB outranges .20g BB in regular AEGs.

 

Now, if we don't have anything more to add to the original topic, please refrain from further post.

[8 Ball]

To clear some things up, the regular skirmish length is not 400fps. It is anywhere between 325fps and 390fps. 400fps is far too much for a gun to handle.

I don't understand why this thread is over? There was an obvious question, "will the M-16A1 be more accurate than the M4A1?" This is due to the longer barrel at question. We are still discussing this matter as to which is right and which is wrong. So far, I haven't heard anymore of the argument that longer barrels won't make it more accurate...I would like to thank the Yanks for using other people's proof that longer barrels do make it more accurate. I think the question that is now at hand is "How much of a difference does it make?"

We have now gotten one answer out of the way, after long discussion. This is how threads should work. A thread is not put up for someone to say "This is how it is", it's put up for discussion. There is nothing that is being said that deserves any punishment for, which means that this thread is good. It is staying on topic, and being handled by experienced people.

 

How much of a difference does this extended M16 barrel make? The Vietnam barrel is a 102mm difference than the M4. My belief is that it doesn't make a noticeable difference in the woods, it makes a difference on the sheets. What it will do for you in the woods is give you the compact feeling (I'll explain it shortly), with the confidence of a long barrel.

This compact feeling I'm talking about is the Vietnam era M16 stocks (M-16...better known in the airsoft world as M16VN...and M-16A1). These stocks are shorter than an M-16A2 stock, which brings the receiver closer to your body. This will give you the confidence of the manuverability, with the confidence of a large gun.

I will explain this really quickly while I have the chance...M-16's were test subjects in Vietnam. Only a couple thousand made, and mostly used by SF. Then there were the M-16A1s made. The M16VN that we all know, is really called an M-16...no A#.

The M-16 is a great gun to go with. I personally want one, but it's not mil-sim to do so. Mil-sim sucks, but it's what we at NJAOC live by (well, the vets that is, not all the noobs that are over running that *beep*. You'll know who we hate by their response to TriChrome's thread...Wesker *cough cough*).

And please, for those who are making fun of the Yanks over at NJAOC...if we're so dumb, why are there more American loadouts in Great Britain and other parts of Europe, than there are in the US? Trust me, we got something right, and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the military...

 

PS. Sid, sacrific the dog to the trolls!

 

Edit: Sid is not airsoft. That's a total noob way of thinking. If there's anything important that I learned, by joining the team I did, is that there's no one person that knows everything about airsoft. Everything has to do with opinions. Including gun smithing. Opinion of shimming: Does it feel right? Opinion of parts: Is this worth the money? Will it hold? Opinion of looks: Should I get this Crane stock? Or a battery pack?

My opinion is completely different from anyone else's. If you would like to discuss these, you can open up another thread and ask me my opinions, however, I don't feel this is neccessary, because you all probably don't care on my opinion. This opinion of mine comes from 2 years of talking with 20 different people who noobs feel "are airsoft". My opinion is not how airsoft is for me. I actually just changed it about a month ago. And in the future, I guarantee Sid will change his opinion. Will that opinion now become airsoft? Or is his old opinion airsoft? Or are they all airsoft? He is not airsoft. Nor am I, nor is anyone that I know, or don't know. Please desist from saying "this person is airsoft", it is not true.

[Rob15]

I don't understand why this thread is over?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who said it is, i'm not sure if you know this but US time isn't the same as the time around the world it is currently 1am here and some people actually like to sleep...

 

So far, I haven't heard anymore of the argument that longer barrels won't make it more accurate...I would like to thank the Yanks for using other people's proof that longer barrels do make it more accurate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry, where is the proof, you have proof for it in RS. All you brought was a load of opinions.

 

We have now gotten one answer out of the way, after long discussion. This is how threads should work. A thread is not put up for someone to say "This is how it is", it's put up for discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What, you saying you've won now? untill you bring is proof for your theory you havn't even come close

 

 

This compact feeling I'm talking about is the Vietnam era M16 stocks (M-16...better known in the airsoft world as M16VN...and M-16A1). These stocks are shorter than an M-16A2 stock, which brings the receiver closer to your body. This will give you the confidence of the manuverability, with the confidence of a large gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, you need the confidence of a large gun to counter the lack of length in other areas

 

The M-16 is a great gun to go with. I personally want one, but it's not mil-sim to do so. Mil-sim sucks, but it's what we at NJAOC live by (well, the vets that is, not all the noobs that are over running that *beep*. You'll know who we hate by their response to TriChrome's thread...Wesker *cough cough*).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well not many people play milsim in the UK afaik so that doesn't really matter

 

And please, for those who are making fun of the Yanks over at NJAOC...if we're so dumb, why are there more American loadouts in Great Britain and other parts of Europe, than there are in the US? Trust me, we got something right, and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the military...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, doing a US loadout is a lot easier than a UK loadout to be fair, look how many M4's there are.

Also i've seen more non-US loadouts than US loadouts personally I don't even base my loadout on anything...

 

PS. Sid, sacrific the dog to the trolls!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you want Sid's dog?

 

Also, not to drag it on, but do you even know why .25's go further?

I happen to know the theory and the truth.

[Sledge]

Kay, first off, what does the load of stuff you've posted about Vietnam era M16s have to do with the price of fish? Seems to be left at the traffic lights, off into strange new lands.

 

Second, how many British Army weapons are available in airsoft? Let's see... well, the SA80 just came out. Maybe that's why people do other loadouts?

 

[Rob15]

And even that has some problems, and is double the price of a good M4

[8 Ball]

Wow, not once in those 3 threads after I posted them, did I get one bit of approval for my post...This thread is not able to be taken seriously until people understand that things, including TriChrome, go both ways (just kidding). Read my thread again, and then post. Everything runs together.

The M-16A1 is a gun that he's looking at...this is a Vietnam gun. That is where my random jabbering comes into play, because it's not, it's simply talking about Vietnam era guns, and my approval of it.

 

Rob...you obviously did not read the rest of the post...Sale explained that it does make a difference in accuracy, but his question was "how much of a difference? Is it worth having such a long gun? Is it even noticeable?" Please don't come into this thread and use your childish arguments, and don't quote every sentence I have to say.

 

Now, if we don't have anything more to add to the original topic, please refrain from further post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you still like to know who said this thread is over? Read above please.

 

Edit yet again: And the dog thing was a joke. To lighten up this hostile situation that this thread is turning into. Read my post from earlier today. I said "You call us trolls, trolls eat dogs. I want to eat Sid's dog." It's a joke. Please give up this childish argument of trying to make me look like an idiot so people don't believe me. I'm sarcastic, and a joker, but I know a lot about airsoft because I make it a habit to talk to the right people.

[Sale]

I'm still questioning whether a longer barrel will make a difference in accuracy. I think what we're trying to do here is debate what is the optimal barrel length for an airsoft gun. We all know that a 110mm barrel won't give as good accuracy as a longer one, but I can say without testing that a 2000mm barrel won't produce tighter groupings than a 650mm barrel. So somewhere in between there's the optimum, right? Somewhere along the road extending the barrel seizes to aid accuracy, even if there's sufficient air to push the BB.

 

So what's that length, may I ask 8 Ball and TriChrome? Our experience and tests show it's around 300mm, give or take a few cm. It seems you have a different opinion. I'd love to know about it, you know, tests. So far we have kept the debate civilized as I see it.

 

-Sale

[Rob15]

Wow, not once in those 3 threads after I posted them, did I get one bit of approval for my post...This thread is not able to be taken seriously until people understand that things, including TriChrome, go both ways (just kidding). Read my thread again, and then post. Everything runs together.

The M-16A1 is a gun that he's looking at...this is a Vietnam gun. That is where my random jabbering comes into play, because it's not, it's simply talking about Vietnam era guns, and my approval of it.

Rob..you obviously did not read the rest of the post...Sale explained that it does make a difference in accuracy, but his question was "how much of a difference? Is it worth having such a long gun? Is it even noticeable?" Please don't come into this thread and use your childish arguments, and don't quote every sentence I have to say.

Would you still like to know who said this thread is over? Read above please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1- What 3 threads did you post? i havn't seen any

2- Are you saying this is your thread, or another thread?

3- i have read all the posts, unlike you..

4- no it is not worth having a longer gun

5- childish arguements, where ?

6- Why can't i quote you, i'm well know on this forum that i do that, and so far, you're the first to really complain

7- i did see what shao said, but the disscusion is related i feel

 

EDIT : Ok, fair enough

[8 Ball]

I mixed up my words. I apologize. What I meant to say was "No where in the last 3 posts after mine." Sorry.

 

Edit: Sale: I would like to thank you for being resonable. This thread is probably under control because you are asking the proper questions that deserve a response. I'm sorry, but I don't have the kind of money to do such a thing. I wish I did, but right now, I don't have the money to fix my M4 which is in parts. X-mas sucks, most of you know how it goes. If we can, we will talk to the people who have the right attitude and money to do a test like that. Until then, I can tell you from experience of woodland shooting. I know every part that goes in each of my guns, I know the FPS, and I'm very good at giving educated guesses with changes of such things. From what I have figured out (which I will be knocked for having an educated guess, and not proof from 3 scientists who are world wide known and make Einstein look like a dumb *albatross*), All things in the gearbox when installed properly, the only things that matter are the cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, hop-up and barrel. What we're looking at is just the longer barrel. I have never swapped out just the barrel in a gun, but in swapping everything completely out in my M4, for the most accuracy I could get out of the gun, and having a stock TM M-16A2 with PDI190% spring in it, and finding out that the M-16 was the best at accuracy. This makes me assume that the longer barrel will have the most accuracy. And before I get anything about having put the parts in wrong. I would not like to go through the parts list in my gun, but I must say that there is not one part in my gun that is the same as last year, and same goes for the year before that. So I can assure you that the parts in my M4 weren't broken, and were put in properly, by many different people.

[TriChrome]

We all know that a 110mm barrel won't give as good accuracy as a longer one

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I don't think everybody knows that. Rob15 said "My TM MP5k PDW is the most accurate of my AEG's, it also has a much shorter barrel then my G3 SG1". Hissing Sid in his test, where he tested a MP5K and a SG1 barrel amongst others, said "No barrel was particularly more accurate".

 

If you're agreeing with me that barrel length does make a difference, being specific: that a MP5K length barrel isn't as accurate as a longer one. Then you have to agree with me that Hissing Sid's test was flawed, and that everybody else who was basing their opinion off that is also wrong/mis-informed.

 

Anyway, I'm out for holiday parties for awhile.

[systema]

In my opinion only, there's simply too many facors to consider when testing an airsoft gun for accuracy.

[Rob15]

Actually, I don't think everybody knows that. Rob15 said "My TM MP5k PDW is the most accurate of my AEG's, it also has a much shorter barrel then my G3 SG1".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point was that i have both guns, i find one is more accurate than the other even though it does have a much shorter barrel.

Why?, well its becuase i don't have 2 foot of gun infront of my hand to effect the balance.

Same applies the the M4/M16, the M4 has less gun infront of your hand which should mean it is easier to balance.

You add a longer barrel to my PDW the balance is going to be effected reducing accuracy

Dunno if its explained well enough, if it isn't just say...

[8 Ball]

Balance does not effect accuracy, which is exactly why every single person here who knows something about testing accuracy has said clearly "At a sand bag/soft rest". Front heavy guns are not effected in accuracy if the gun is at a rest.

I would like to know what Sid has his gun rested on while doing this test? This isn't to throw it back in your face, I, unlike most people on this thread so far, like to learn things from people who I am arguing with.

[Rob15]

Balance does not effect accuracy, which is exactly why every single person here who knows something about testing accuracy has said clearly "At a sand bag/soft rest". Front heavy guns are not effected in accuracy if the gun is at a rest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and i know it wasn't entirley relevent to the topic, but in a skirmish situation it is relevent

[Shao14]

In my last post, I did NOT say the discussion was over. I simply pointed out that if no one can add anything more, they don't need to repeat themselves or deviate from the original topic. If I had said the discussion was over, I would've closed the thread.

 

Now, this thread has started discussing powers above 328fps with .2g BBs and mentioning springs such as 190% spring, and those are against the forum rules. Please check the forum rules for more details. Along with sarcasm and insulting remarks here and there, I now announce this thread is CLOSED!