Range of TM M4 vs. TM M16?

[tmas]

I'm a huge noob and I've been reading through the stuff here (very good info by the way) and I'm wondering whether the range of a Tokyo Marui M4A1 is noticeably less then a Tokyo Marui M16A1 Vietnam in both their stock versions? I'm asking as I play in a woodland area (never played CQB and I don't plan on playing often because of the cost of the place in my area) and I don't particularly enjoy carrying a long-a@@ rifle around as the trees are fairly dense (especially in summer) and as a result it can be hard to move quickly (which is my style of play). I know the weight on both is around the same, but as I handle the real deal AR-15 on a regular basis in my 'Nam reenacting, I'm not relishing constantly running around with a full-length rifle.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[kickasspartan117]

It wont be a noticable diffrence. If you want more range and accuracy get a tight bore berrel.

[Lightning10]

yes, barrel length does not have as big of an effect in airsoft as it does in RS. barrel quality and diameter is what makes the difference.

[b23ball23]

yes, barrel length does not have as big of an effect in airsoft as it does in RS.  barrel quality and diameter is what makes the difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yep, the ranges could vary slightly, but in airsoft it doesnt really count, get a tighbore, it defninantly an upgrade that will "up" your gun's preformance....(clean the barrel frequently)

 

BEN

GOD BLESS

[TriChrome]

Both guns shoot at around the same FPS. FPS is what gives you distance, barrel length (and quality upgrade parts) give you accuracy (so in stock form the M16 will have slightly tighter groupings than the M4 since it has a longer barrel).

[b23ball23]

Both guns shoot at around the same FPS. FPS is what gives you distance, barrel length (and quality upgrade parts) give you accuracy (so in stock form the M16 will have slightly tighter groupings than the M4 since it has a longer barrel).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the longer barrel really doesnt mean anything...its a common misconception that i learned about a week ago

 

BEN

[tmas]

Ok thanks a lot everyone.

[Blastyman]

FPS determines range and hopup. Barrel length affects only accuracy.

 

guns shooting same FPS and same hopup with different length barrels will get the same range but accuracy and groupings be worse on the shorter barrel

 

So I guess you could argue that maybe the effective range may be slightly less but like others pointed out it really doesn't affect too much.

 

They are both roughly the same.

[Sledge]

Ladies and gentleman, I knew making a note of this post would come in handy one day.

S'funny but there's loads of BS flying around about what should and shouldn't happen with tightbores and longer barrels but, when I actually got around to reliably, repeatably, testing stuff the results were amazingly close to what the theory suggests.

 

For example (of how NOT to do it), I once spent a morning buggering about testing different barrels and I found that the results were a bit random. Later on I realised I'd forgotten to leave the hop-up off.

Every time I'd fitted a different barrel in my P90 I'd automatically set the hop back to its usual position before shooting it.

This, of course, meant that the hop was sapping some of the power and messing with accuracy.

 

In this situation you can do 2 things:-

1) Ignore the mistake and start telling people skewed results.

2) Go back and do it again, properly.

 

I decided to go back and do it again.

 

I've now had 5 standard barrels fitted to my P90 from the following guns:-

MP5K

P90

MC51

M4

G3 S/G1

 

The results were absolutely what you'd expect, theoretically, regarding power. The MP5K barrel was about 5fps lower than stock and the S/G1 barrel increased power by about 8fps. The others were somewhere in between.

 

No barrel was particularly more accurate.

Theoretically, fitting a longer barrel WILL increase accuracy purely because it increases power by a small amount and, thus, gives the BB a slightly flatter trajectory at the same range.

However, if you consider what a P90 looks like and then imagine a P90 with an extra 12" of barrel poking out the end, THAT is the sort of extension you require to even begin to see a meaningful power increase.

So, you've got your gun with a 2ft long barrel poking out of it. Now you've got another problem. The BB spends a LOT longer in the barrel and any movement you make during this time will totally ruin your aim.

 

In practice this means that a longer barrel gives you a tiny bit more accuracy purely due to the additional power and then takes that accuracy away again because the gun is harder to shoot accurately.

 

In practice there was no discernable difference between any of the barrels. Longer barrels din't give tighter groups or make for shots nearer the bullseye.

 

Then there's tight-bores.

 

My testing with tight-bores has been restricated to S/G1 barrels in a gun with a 1J spring.

I tested the following barrels:

Marui S/G1 barrel

TK M16 Twist barrel

KM 6.04 TN Barrel

Systema 6.04 barrel

Prometheus 6.03 barrel

 

The results, again, showed that the tighter barrels increased power by a small amount. Fitting a 6.04 barrel caused a 4fps increase and fitting a 6.03mm barrel caused a 7fps increase.

 

Again, accuracy is a subjective thing. I would point out, however, that where accuracy provided by longer barrels can be distorted by movement as the BB travels down the barrel, testing tight-bores of the same length means that the results should, at least, be consistant.

 

I did tests at a range of 20m.

Now, it might be argued that tests at longer ranges would be more useful.

TBH, the longest indoor area I have access to is 20m long and I figured that it'd be better to test thais stuff indoors at 20m than outdoors at 35-40m where variations in wind might create inaccurate results.

I figure that accuracy at greater range can be extrapolated from the results at 20m.

Tests were carried out by 3 people and a concencus was reached. For example, if one of us thought a particular barrel was awful but the other two thought it was good we'd all go back and shoot it again until we were happy with the results. Maybe that's a flaw in the test? Maybe it creates pressure to conform with the majority?

I dunno but on the day I think we were all happy with the results we achieved. I certainly didn't feel I'd been "bullied" into any of my conclusions about any barrel.

 

There's no point in going into details but, basically, we found that the Marui barrel was ok. The TK barrel was pretty-much the same as the Marui barrel. Sometimes the TK barrel would shoot really tight groups and we'd think it was starting to work. Then we'd shoot with the Marui barrel some more and THAT would shoot some tight groups as well.

Doh!

Fitting the 6.04 barrels was a breath of fresh air. I (we) didn't see much difference between the Systema and KM 6.04s. They were both clearly better than the Marui barrel.

As for the 6.03 barrel, bear in mind that my mate has a 6.04 barrel fitted to the S/G1 I built him and there might be some "penis envy" there cos I got a tighter barrel.

When I shot the 6.03 barrel I was convinced it was a LOT better than the 6.04. When my mate shot it... he was as well!

At 20m you can, literally, watch the BBs fly through the same hole in a target time after time.

 

It occurs to me that the real benefit of a tight-bore barrel isn't actual "accuracy".

Allow me to explain - The only item that I haven't really examined is the BB itself. When a bag of 5,000 BBs costs £8 you can't really expect them to be precision-engineered.

If a BB isn't spherical or if it's slightly heavier on one side than the other then that's going to affect its accuracy.

 

I wonder if the real benefit of a tighter barrel is that it helps "control" the BB as it's launched?

If you fire 500 BBs through a stock Marui barrel some of them will go right where you aim them and some will go 12" away from that point. The tests were carried out with AND without hop-up so we got to see what the BBs do by themselves AND what they do when the hop is used to induce a deliberate rotation. The barrel isn't changing from shot to shot so the only thing that can be different is the BB (and the shooter, I guess).

 

Anyway, my point is that in a tight-bore the BB doesn't have room to pitch, yaw or swerve as it travels so all it can do is fly straight. I wouldn't be surprised to find that is the true benefit of a tight-bore barrel rather than actual "accuracy" per-se.

 

TBH, I can't really think of a way to prove this though. The only practical way to do it would be to fire a squillion BBs into a soft backstop and collect all the ones you considered to be "accurate". If you then fired them again and found them all to be accurate you might conclude that the other BBs did, indeed, have problems with the way they were constructed.

 

Geez, I kinda went on a bit there. Back on planet Earth, a light breeze will screw up all the theory and testing you care to do. God bless toy guns!

 

[8 Ball]

That was way too much to read. I'm new on these forums, but I've been on NJAOC for a long time. My boy, TriChrome, was "proved" wrong on this topic, and I would like to make sure that the wrong information doesn't continue to over ride the right information simply because too many people try to figure things out for themselves.

It's simple physics, common knowledge, and an obvious marketing scheme for Prometheus. Longer barrels are more accurate.

Click these links to see what I mean by marketing scheme:

Prometheus 6.03 EG Barrel for M4 / SR16 / SG551 ( 363mm )

Prometheus 6.03 EG Barrel for M4 / SR16 / SG551+ ( 407mm )

The first link is to a barrel that fits the M4 perfectly. Nothing protruding from the barrel, nothing ugly to see. The second one is longer, uglier. I have the second one. Why you ask? Because it's common knowledge to anyone who paid attention in math class, or science class. The longer something travels in a closed in area, the farther/more accurate the object will be when leaving.

If shorter barrels are just as accurate, why is this USMC Snipers a sniper rifle, and not this 173rd Airborne?

And if you tell me auto/semi fire, I'll personally go to whatever country you live in, and beat you.

It's common sense to anyone who fires real-steel, and to anyone who knows something about physics, that longer barrels ARE more accurate.

Don't be fooled by long, drawn out tests. Because in reality, what was this guy using to mark where he hit his targets? Where was he shooting? How much wind?

Next questions: What will you be using to mark your targets in a game? Where will you be shooting in a game? How much wind will be at this place you're playing in a game?

When it comes down to it, you don't use ONE person's test, you use years and years of paper work, and proof, and military experience.

[Sledge]

Real steel ballistics have nothing to do with airsoft.

 

[8 Ball]

Wow, that was damn quick.

You really know nothing about projectiles then, do you?

Whether this is real steel, airsoft, paintball, or spitballs, the same rules apply.

The only difference between real-steel and airsoft barrels is rifling. Other than that, they do apply.

[TriChrome]

Real steel ballistics have nothing to do with airsoft.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True, and I will agree that barrel length has much more to do with real-guns accuracy than Airsoft, but the fact still remains that Airsoft barrel length still matters for accuracy.

 

The people here as well: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...topic=42397&hl= are also trying to tell me the same thing, and it's just not true. You go to any of the well known forums in the states; NEASG.org, AirsoftRetreat.com, AirsoftForum.com, AirsoftPlayers.com, AirsoftCore.com and they'll all tell you the same thing.

 

If barrel length didn't matter you wouldn't see so many people with silencers hiding longer inner barrels. You wouldn't see the longer barreled guns being used in designated marksmans roles.

 

But, to be honest, maybe it's because lmany of you live in the UK where the FPS is limited to 328, and you won't see as much varience in the groupings than us in the states with 400 FPS with .25's limits (which is 450ish FPS with .2's).

[Sledge]

No, the same rules do not apply. Real steel firearms launch an aerodynamic projectile at speeds above that of sound. Airsoft fires an unaerodynamic projectile at pathetically low velocities in comparison. Clearly, you know nothing of what you speak, so please be quiet. If the principles are the same, why don't we use rifled barrels in airsoft?

 

Also, as you admit, you haven't bothered to read the post. This disqualifies you from having an opinion on it, other than it is too long for you to read. Now, pipe down before I turn into Dr. Cox.

 

[Rob15]

When it comes down to it, you don't use ONE person's test, you use years and years of paper work, and proof, and military experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong forum mate

As said way too many times in this thread

 

A longer barrel does not increase accuracy in airsoft, it can increase the fps if the cylinder has the air capacity

 

Having a tighter bore barrel will increase accuaracy however along with a slight increase in power.

 

And i really wouldn't question the sid, he does tests, and he does them properly

[8 Ball]

I will question the sid, because his theory is wrong (just wanted to make that my opening comment).

I apologize for sounding agressive, but I've had to have this argument many times, and it starts to get annoying. Usually it's with people from different states, but now I can be hated by the whole world.

I didn't read all of what sid said. I admit that, but I did read everything else, and my opinion does count, because not only do I skim, but I notice very many things when I skim.

If rifling worked so good...yadda yadda yadda.

The reason why we don't use rifling...Dr. Cock, is because at low powers, with a round, non-aerodynamic, light projectile, the bb will go almost no where, and vere off to the side in which it's spun to. In airsoft, this rifling is replaced with hop-up, which doesn't put a sidespin on the bb, but a top spin. So if you must know, there is no rifling, but there is a replacement for it. So technically, there is a different form of rifling in an airsoft rifle. So, thank you, but your opinion is now disqualified for stating false information.

Next victim:

Rob, I love you man, but if you repeat the same stuff again, I will be forced to play the repeat game.

[systema]

Oh, I love where this is going.

[Rob15]

The reason why we don't use rifling...Dr. Cock, is because at low powers, with a round, non-aerodynamic, light projectile, the bb will go almost no where, and vere off to the side in which it's spun to. In airsoft, this rifling is replaced with hop-up, which doesn't put a sidespin on the bb, but a top spin. So if you must know, there is no rifling, but there is a replacement for it. So technically, there is a different form of rifling in an airsoft rifle. So, thank you, but your opinion is now disqualified for stating false information.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Few things

Opinion < Facts and tests

 

I think 99% of the people on this forum knew there was no rifling in airsoft guns

 

Rifling wouldn't increase the range of a bb afaik (sid/R22/sale and the others will get here soon) , hop up causes it to go up rather than drop, hence why hop up is used.

 

Meh, time for sleep

[8 Ball]

If the principles are the same, why don't we use rifled barrels in airsoft?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The question was in no way "Are there rifled barrels in airsoft guns?" It was "Why aren't there if your opinion is correct?"

Well, I have now proved that both of the strong competitors are not up to par with reading comprehension. For those of you who aren't up to par on reading comprehension, that means that you don't understand the whole of the topic.

[Rob15]

why don't we use rifled barrels in airsoft?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They don't increase range

And you can't mix hop-up and rifled barrels

 

Well, I have now proved that both of the strong competitors are not up to par with reading comprehension. For those of you who aren't up to par on reading comprehension, that means that you don't understand the whole of the topic.

Got any proof, tests and what-not, or is that just your opinion

 

EDIT : oooh, this is fun

[TriChrome]

If you guys were also up to date on Airsoft facts and products, you would know there are rifled barrels in Airsoft made by Tanio Koba (one of the original pioneers of Airsoft), the barrels are called Tanio Koba Twist barrels, and are only meant to be used in 330 FPS and under guns (perfect for the UK's underpowered guns), and their acurracy is supposed to be unsurpassed at that FPS.

 

But that's besides the point. We're talking about regular smoothbore barrels here, and if you principle is correct then my MP5K is broken because it has much larger groupings than my S-System.

[Rob15]

We already know about the Twist barrels, and its also been proven that they are a POS afaik

 

EDIT : accuracy also depends on the balance of the gun, i find a gun without a stock is going to be less accurate then one that has one.

My TM MP5k PDW is the most accurate of my AEG's, it also has a much shorter barrel then my G3 SG1

[8 Ball]

Maybe you can't mix them, but they both put spin on the projection, which, in the end, makes it more accurate.

 

I don't have proof, because unlike the people who go by the words of one person, I know by simple math that length matters, just ask TriChrome's mom (sorry, if I had to add in a joke there. Just to lighten the mood).

I do simple math, and figure out that the longer an item spends in an projected state, the longer the item will go in the intended direction. Please explain how this does not make sense?

Also, something that really chapped my *albatross* (sorry, had to add in another funny) is that he explained that a little movement would knock this projectile off course before it left the barrel. When every gun magazine I read clearly states that to test fire groupings of a gun, you should put it at a sand bag rest, so the movement is minimal while testing. Which clearly shows that he did the testing wrong, which is why I didn't continue the reading. Muscles are not sturdy. You cannot expect to hold a rifle to your shoulder, pull the trigger with nothing except the support of your non-dominent arm to keep the rifle in place, and expect to get accurate groupings.

 

Edit: If you say afiki one more time, I'll proceed to using American terms that you will never, in your lifetime, understand, because I, myself will make up the definition for them, and not share them with anyone else.

[TriChrome]

Do you know what , since people here do not believe me, I will make a topic on several very popular forums and see what people outside of Arnie's think about barrel length concerning accuracy. Once everybody concurs with what I'm saying, will you believe me then?

[Rob15]

Edit: If you say afiki one more time, I'll proceed to using American terms that you will never, in your lifetime, understand, because I, myself will make up the definition for them, and not share them with anyone else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

afaik iccl so stfu

 

Do you know what , since people here do not believe me, I will make a topic on several very popular forums

 

Oh yeah, which would those be, its known that a lot just spout BS