Problem with Sale!

[kliskey]

About 3 weeks ago, I decided to buy an "Upgraded" TM m4 from Ranger 2.

He told me through various PMs that the gun in question had had a lot of upgrades and that it had been serviced on a regular basis. It boasted an above forum limits fps and was said to be in great condition. In all honesty I agreed to buy it.

Upon a 50% deposit he send out the gun, Parcel force recorded special delivery - Usually about a 3 day transaction. It took just under 2 weeks for the gun to arrive.

Upon opening I found various problems.

This is a PM that I sent to Steve explaining the problems and that I wanted my money refunded.

Hi Steve,

The Package arrived yesterday, and to be honest I am not very happy!

There are many many more problems with it that you have failed to point out. (see list below).

You told me in previous pms that you had made substantial improvements to her, which yeh, i can see some,

but they are rather poor quality.

I am going to be straight with you. I am not satisfied, and I would like my money refunded. I will then send back the gun.

I didn't want it to come to this. But after getting someone else to check it over, the out come was even worse then what

I had previously imagined.

I will give you 48 hours to refund my £110, after that I will have to go for some slightly more drastic measures such as

a paypal dispute or even (dare I say it, and bloody hope not, as to be honest I don't want to screw this over, as i think

you are a really nice guy) if i have to call the police. This is because you have lied about the product that you have sold

me.

 

List of problems

 

1. Top rail cover is broken

2. Left side upper receiver tab has been snapped off.

3. Trigger pin is missing

4. On the RIS, there are no allen bolts, one is broken and there are missing brackets. (where there were once allen bolts,

  these have been replaced by wood screws)

5. There were bbs stuck in between the lower and upper receiver(how on earth did they get there?) this was causing alot

  of strain on the body

6. The Hopup and the inner barrel assembly were jammed/ stuck in the upper receiver

7. The ejection port cover is broken (doesn't stay closed)

8. Selector switch is full auto only! (This is a major issue, as i told you that my aim was to turn it into a single shot

  counter sniper, yet you said all was well)

9. I am pretty sure that you said it has had alot of good quality upgrades, to me they look like standard Marui upgrades,

    perhaps taken from an SR16.

10.Usual wear and tear? I must say she has seen better days, as for the "small crack" under the celetape, well that turn

    out to be a major structural failure of the body. the tape was infact holding it together. (I mean its ok, but you know,

    thats quite a severe problem)

11. A woodscrew that has replaced an allen bolt is holding together the RIS bracket - This is very very loose.

12. She is miss firing and has already got jammed once, after just two mags.

 

Well those are the problems that I have found so far. I haven't opened the gearbox yet.

I can post pictures of this if you feel that you had no idea (even though you said you had serviced here many times)

To be frank, I am disappointed as we have done business in the past. You are a top bloke, I don't know if you were

trying to miss lead me or not, I am not accusing you of that.

But I would like a refund.

No neg reps or bad trader remarks will be written unless this gets out of hand.

This message has been sent to the mods aswell.

I really hope that this can be resolved quickly, and there are no hard feelings either side.

 

Rob 

 

As you can see I have been very reasonable in this PM I have asked nicely.

Note the "I will call the Police" - Yes, under the UK sales and trades law, if a person has been sold a faulty product (But was not for warned about it condition) then the seller can be penalised! - I do not want this problem to escalate to this point!

 

Steve agreed to refund my money, and his first email was quick and easy. - I thought that would be the end of it and that I would get my money back that night

I will pay paypal tonight when you send it back make sure it has insurance on it

With that said and done, I had the gun packaged up again and I was ready to take it to the post office the next day.

Unfortunately he failed to pay me back that night.

 

I sent out another email the next day explaining that the gun was ready to go out, but I refused to send it until I get my money back.

His reply (Or should I say his wife’s) was quite comical.

this is steves wife no money has been paid as I have been on the comp for the last

24 hours I have a criminology exam in the morning lasting 4 hours the level of

compitance of my work will determin the level of degree i obtain, i stopped steve

from going on it as i was in the study and did not want to be disturbed, when steve

arrives in from work i will inform him of you most recent threat and he will decide

what to do next, however if you wish to call the police then do so not only will

they crush any other airsoft items in your house they will also sieze your computer

as under the new terrorism legislations persuing acts of violence( concensual or not)

is enough for a warrent to sieze goods in your house (plus the police will aso find

out that the sale of the item is a civi matter for a small claims court to take

action not a police matter) i'm sure steve will do it before you 4 pm deadline as

my exam is at 10am, anything else you want to moan about while i'm on a break?

I found that quite rude to say the least. Not only are there some lies embedded in that post, but it disgusts me that until now I had tried to act as "Adult like" as possible.

There were a number of other emails sent back and forth, but they had very little to do with the sale (No abuse from my side) - I will post them however if they are deemed necessary.

This is a message that I got from Steve the next day, I presume him and his wife had had a chat about it.

cant send the pay pal until my wife gets home as she has all the pass words

as it is her account, she has bben away at lincon unie doing her crimaoligy

and low exsams, she will be home to day some time , dont no whot time so you

will have to do whot you think is best , Dont keep trying to black mail me as

i am to long in the tooth to be botherd about it , if i say that i will refund

you then iwill, dont forget that you could not pay all the money as you had

problems with pay pal so lets act like aoults and keep things carm and nice .

The sooner i get her back the better, will refund you the money some time today

that you have my word , steve

I sent out one final warning to Steve that morning.

Steve I am not threatening you nor blackmailing. I had a chat with your wife yesterday anyway, if anything, she was the one threatening me (I can send back her emails if you want )

As long as I get it back then I am happy.

All I was worried about is that you said you would refund me same day as I sent you that pm. I need it back today, no later as I must have a gun for TA2, and seen as all I have at the moment is £110 (+ the £110 you have) its not looking to good for me seen as ta2 is in like 6 days :|

Anyway - I will extend your deadline to 2100. I don't see why either she can't send it, or you can't get the pass via email or the phone. It just seems like you are trying to lag the process.

Rob

I had extended his payment deadline to 2100. Now I wouldn’t be posting this thread had he met this deadline.

His reply was:

you told me 10 pm it is now 8.38 do you not now how to tell the time , i

told you you would have it by 10 and you should . stop trying to bully me i am a

man off my word try and be the same. steve

My reply was pretty much the same as what I said before, par that I mentioned that He seems to consistently trying to wheel himself out of the deal and I refuse to extend the deadline for a 3rd time!

About 20 mins later I get this.

RETURN MY PROPERTY ASAP BEFORE THE POLICE ARE CALLED!

And about 5 mins later:

(2103)

MONEY SENT, WHEN PACKAGE IS SENT ENSURE IT HAS ADIQUATE INSURANCE IF

ANYTHING HAPPENS TO IT IN THE POST I WILL FIND YOU RESPONSIBLE! THIS IS NOT

A TREAT IT IS AN OFFICAL WARNING OF ACTION!

Now the odd thing is, its is now 22:10 and yet I still haven’t had any money (via paypal) returned to me.

 

I am not sure what to do now. I would rather not file a paypal dispute. I do NOT want to call the Police. All I want is for my money to be refunded.

 

I apologise for this essay type post – I have taken time over it however, and I hope that both Steve and the mods (and the public) will also take their time to read this.

I have told me side of the story now, I await Steve’s, and hopefully my full refund

Thank you

Rob

 

Edit: I have just sent out this PM to him:

Steve it is now 2222 and I have still failed to see a refund appear in my payapl.

I have given you two days to send this money back, Your gun has been ready to go for two days now. It will still go out as soon as I get my £110 refunded.

Please note, just like I said in my first post, I have set up a thread concerning this matter. As I said, it did not have to come to this.

Please read and add to it Here

Thank you

Rob

[kliskey]

ACCORDING TO OUR ACCOUNTS WE HAVE NOW SENT 2 PAYMENTS, I'M *fruitcage*ED OFF WITH THIS NOW IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY WE WILL ARGUE AGAIN IN THE MORNING OH AND PS I DONT GIVE A *fruitcage* WHAT YOU SAY TO THE MODS AS ARNIES IS A PILE OF *beep* IT'S FULL OF OVER EXITED TEENAGERS WHO DON'T CARE ABOUT BEING CIVIL TO ONE ANOTHER NO WONDER THE GOV WANT TO BAN IT

 

He is now consistanly threating me.

This matter has now been resolved as I have recieved a payment.

However it seems that he wants his money back by creating lies that he has sent me not one but two payments of £110.

EDIT - Just relised, even if you have sent two loads of payments - I can only get that money if I accept the payment! - You will be notified if I have accepted , It has also just been pointed out by a friend that Paypal have logs of teh transactions, so you can place a disput if you want, but if this is a lie you will be in trouble.

I honestly don't know what to do.

His gun will be sent out in the morning.

 

And another

I EXPECT AN EMAIL WHEN I WAKE UP IN THE MORN ( WELL MORE LIKE MID MORN WHEN I GET OUT ME PIT) GIVING ME A TRACKING NUMBER AS IT MUST BE SENT SPECIAL DELIVERY WITH FULL INSURANCE.  FOR YOU INFOMATION DYSLEXICS HAVE A PROBLEMS WITH NUMBER RECOGNITION, TIME WAS EIGHT FIFTY SIX WHEN MONEY FIRST SENT. I WILL ALSO COMMENT ON ARNIES ABOUT THE AMMOUNT OF TIME I LET YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THE GUN (WHICH I ONLY RECIVED PART PAYMENT FOR) AND YOUR INABILITY TO ASK A @MATE@ TO REFUND WITH COMMON DECENCY THAT A MAN WOULD

 

Yes I did only pay you 50% as paypal was taking along time to verify my account (2 weeks when usually it takes only a few days

To be honest Steve, as a mate, I would have told the truth about the product that I am selling.

Note also that I have to go to school, So I may not be able to get the tracking number to you until teh after noon

[fwskateboard]

wow, what a *fruitcage* seriously I take your side COMPLETLY kliskey. Hope this works out well.

[Jimmypie]

Id just like to add that i had an oppurtunity to have a look at this gun and it was a complete dog, the case it came in was the only decent thing about it, its a big shame because as a student Kliskey

hasn't got alot of money and really trusted this guy, i kept thinking it was an odd trade with nearly a 2-3 week wait for delivery but Rob defended him to the end, just goes to show , buyers beware ,get as much info as you can upfront before parting with any money, good luck Rob ,if theres anything else i can do to , just PM,

Jim.

[RANGER 2]

Id just like to add that i had an oppurtunity to have a look at this gun and it was a complete dog, the case it came in was the only decent thing about it, its a big shame because as a student Kliskey

hasn't got alot of money and really trusted this guy, i kept thinking it was an odd trade with nearly a 2-3 week wait for delivery but Rob defended him to the end, just goes to show , buyers beware ,get as much info as you can upfront before parting with any money, good luck Rob ,if theres anything else i can do to , just PM,

Jim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just to put things write . firstly my wife was the person who was sending all the nastys , but even so she avted in my defence as some off us are older nuth to have to work for a living , secondly he new that the gun was old as he was told that it was bought new when the first came out , yes she was a little scratched an well used but the up grades that she had don to her made up for that .How can a kid just out of nappys say that the work carried out by JOHN at firer surport was second rat as the are hundreds of people in the uk who will say the sameas me the he is one off the best airsoft gunsmiths there is and all his work is top class, AS for the payment it was sent at 20.38 ish but as he says he did not exsept it , was this becouse he just wonted to coules trouble , well idont no thr ansewer to this , all i no is that to payments were sent ,hofully she is on her way back home now and as for as im concerned i acced in a povesonal manner , i'm 39 he is just turned 18 things seem deferent to yonger people so that could have been part of the problem .As for my wife i pubblicy appoligice , as do i for all the hassle , the remark about air soft and arnie allso came from her so again if it evended eney one sorry . Hope we can put all this behind us and get on with what we do best ,airsoft ,as we are surposed to be a community and one that is under fret so fighting amouge are selfs is not helping

[RANGER 2]

just to put things write . firstly my wife was the person who was sending all the nastys , but even so she avted in my defence as some off us are older nuth to have to work for a living , secondly he new that the gun was old as he was told that it was bought new when the first came out , yes she was a little scratched an well used but the up grades that she had don to her made up for that .How can a kid just out of nappys say that the work carried out by JOHN at firer surport was second rat as the are hundreds of people in the uk who will say the sameas me the he is one off the best airsoft gunsmiths there is and all his work is top class,              AS for the payment it was sent at 20.38 ish but as he says he did not exsept it , was this becouse he just wonted to coules trouble , well idont no thr ansewer to this , all i no is that to payments were sent ,hofully she is on her way back home now and as for as im concerned i acced in a povesonal manner , i'm 39 he is just turned 18 things seem deferent to yonger people so that could have been part of the problem    .As for my wife i pubblicy appoligice , as do i for all the hassle , the remark about air soft and arnie allso came from her so again if it evended eney one sorry . Hope we can put all this behind us and get on with what we do best ,airsoft ,as we are surposed to be a community and one that is under fret so fighting amouge are selfs is not helping

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a quick note about posting , it was sent io the 3rd and received on the 7th not bad for parcil force , so lets get are facts strate before we post them please.

[kliskey]

just to put things write . firstly my wife was the person who was sending all the nastys.

Yeh I can understand that, she does seem rather immature, more so then you.

he new that the gun was old as he was told that it was bought new when the first came out

I did, your right. though you never mentioned that you had had it from when the TM was new? - So what like 8-10 years?

yes she was a little scratched an well used

A little scratched??? Please refer to quote 1. You told me that she was regularly serviced!

how can a kid just out of nappys

In your defence I presume your wife wrote that one aswell?

AS for the payment it was sent at 20.38 ish but as he says he did not exsept it

I bet?

TIME WAS EIGHT FIFTY SIX WHEN MONEY FIRST SENT

So which one was it, if any?

Listen Steve, if a payment had been sent to my account then I would have recieved it. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have accepted it straight away to avoid such a mess like this.

For the record here is your proof of payment:

*Just to note - I was charged an extra £4 - But I am not complaining - I just want this soughted. So now I have -£4 and I still have to pay for his postage - Still unfair, but I want this soughted!

I also just want to say, your first dead line was 1600, then 2100, yet i still gave you another hour before I started this thread!

YET ANOTHER PAYMENT OF 110 WHEN YOU RECIEVE THE FIRST LOT MAKE SURE YOU SEND IT BACK TO US OR THE POLICE WILL BE CALLED

This is a message recieved through paypal. Just to reiterate, I did not get any other payment, If I had you would have got a confirmation email saying that I had accepted it.

i'm 39 he is just turned 18 things seem deferent to yonger people so that could have been part of the problem   

How much BS do you need to spill out? I can assure you that there are some 13 year olds on this forum that are more mature then you and your wife combined.

.As for my wife i pubblicy appoligice , as do i for all the hassle , the remark about air soft and arnie allso came from her

Well some of those messages were quite hurtful, especially the one about Arnies:

ACCORDING TO OUR ACCOUNTS WE HAVE NOW SENT 2 PAYMENTS, I'M *fruitcage*ED OFF WITH THIS NOW IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY WE WILL ARGUE AGAIN IN THE MORNING OH AND PS I DONT GIVE A *fruitcage* WHAT YOU SAY TO THE MODS AS ARNIES IS A PILE OF *beep* IT'S FULL OF OVER EXITED TEENAGERS WHO DON'T CARE ABOUT BEING CIVIL TO ONE ANOTHER NO WONDER THE GOV WANT TO BAN IT

 

Thats all I have to say for now

Thanks

 

p.s I have written this from school, so please understand I may not be able to reply.

[Kyrian_Zenda]

Wow. Just...wow. Sounds like ranger needs a kick up the *albartroth*.

[Hellfire8]

Two words

 

 

Some People

[warpath2k]

backing u all the way mate, real shame when deals go down this road.

[DirtyMoFo]

sounds to me like you were perfectly reasonable... if i sent a whole wad of cash to someone then got a gun shell full of broken bits of plastic and springs and ###### that didnt fire, and wasnt as described i'd probably hunt the person down and kill them* but im on your side Kliskey mate... this is not your wrong doing as far as i can see!

 

 

 

 

*for the record i dont plan on really killing anyone... honest...

[Jimmypie]

just to put things write . firstly my wife was the person who was sending all the nastys , but even so she avted in my defence as some off us are older nuth to have to work for a living , secondly he new that the gun was old as he was told that it was bought new when the first came out , yes she was a little scratched an well used but the up grades that she had don to her made up for that .How can a kid just out of nappys say that the work carried out by JOHN at firer surport was second rat as the are hundreds of people in the uk who will say the sameas me the he is one off the best airsoft gunsmiths there is and all his work is top class,              AS for the payment it was sent at 20.38 ish but as he says he did not exsept it , was this becouse he just wonted to coules trouble , well idont no thr ansewer to this , all i no is that to payments were sent ,hofully she is on her way back home now and as for as im concerned i acced in a povesonal manner , i'm 39 he is just turned 18 things seem deferent to yonger people so that could have been part of the problem    .As for my wife i pubblicy appoligice , as do i for all the hassle , the remark about air soft and arnie allso came from her so again if it evended eney one sorry . Hope we can put all this behind us and get on with what we do best ,airsoft ,as we are surposed to be a community and one that is under fret so fighting amouge are selfs is not helping

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Id just like to add if any of the "kids and nappys " stuff was directed to me, Im 26 ,own my house and run my own buisness with people working for me, and a "kid in nappys" would have done a better job on that rifle, im no expert but have opened up and customised enough of my own M4's to be able to say that that rifle would probably fall apart on the first skirmish he took it to.

[BakaBox]

Somebody needs to buy tranquilizers for their pet... And buy a dictionary.

 

The handling of this matter seems really childish so far, and it surely isn't Kliskey's fault! If Ranger 2 really is 39, he should've acted like that from day one instead of acting like a scamming 13 year old, involving his wife (mother?) - Who, in turn, should calm the *fruitcage* down.

[Hellfire8]

Id just like to add if any of the "kids and nappys " stuff was directed to me, Im 26 ,own my  house and run my own buisness with people working for me, and a "kid in nappys" would have done a better job on that rifle, im no expert but have opened up and customised enough of my own M4's to be able to say that that rifle would probably fall apart on the first skirmish he took it to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you the guy on the comfert toilet tissue advert, he has his own buissness and is in nappys

 

sorry, couldnt resist

 

*stops spamming*

[jak]

Wow, unlucky Kliskey, its a shame stuff like this happens. Backing you all the way obviously.

 

Ranger 2, i advise that you change your Anries password so your wife can no longer gain acces or just tell her to grow up.

 

I'm one of these `kids in nappies` as im 14. If thats when you got out of nappies i have two words. Poor guy.

[Wai Hoong Chan]

Ranger 2; your spelling is akin to a small "kid just out of nappys"

 

Or "sud th@ b" "ur sp3lling sux"...

It's so damned hard to read!

 

Learn how to type if you want to be taken seriously mate

 

Also change your password so your wife can't abuse the airsofting community!

[Connery]

Ranger, I must say, for a gun to be "regularly serviced", yet the internals are as terrible as kliskey says they are, then something is definately wrong. However, I feel the need to play Devils Advocate. We only have both kliskey's and Jimmypie's word that the internals are rather shoddily installed. Granted, because of the threatening messages that were exchanged from your side, kliskey has a much greater leverage for a he said/she said argument, it can't be proven unless they provide evidence of the internals. For all we know, they could have cooked up a scam to keep all the money and the gun, not that I'm throwing that accusation at you guys.

 

So what I'm suggesting is photographic proof of the gun; internals, scratches, things like that. This way, if it does turn out that the gun isn't as the post implies, then you'll have landslide evidence favoring your side of the argument. If not, well, you made a thread for absolutely nothing.

[snorkelman]

well to be fair to all sides in this the initial email does read a little hot

 

Id have left any mention of police paypal disputes untill hed had a chance to respond to the issues of condition and refund

 

If he was friendly and willing to do the right thing there'd have been no need to mention them and the heat might have stayed out of the issue.

 

'hi Ranger just rec'd the gun thanks, unfortunately theres a lot more wear and tear to it than Id expected from the description you gave, so its not going to be the gun for me. Im quite happy to return it to you by same method it was sent if you can sort out a refund for me (less your costs for posting) then I'll get it returned to you on receipt of the payment. hopefully we can deal wit htis quickly as I really need a gun in time for a skirmish and Im sure you'ld like to readvertise this one as soon as possible'

 

above is far less likely for him ot reach for the rant mode button, and if he was a genuine guy just as likely to get the refund required.

 

If he was a scammer then mention of involving the police would fall on deaf ears anyway (its a civil mater not criminal) as would paypal charge backs (paypal only really get involved in 'goods not recd' disputes if the items are bought outside of ebay - anything else you need to have used a credit card to fund the paypal payment and then bypass paypal and lodge the claim with your cc provider)

 

think of it from his side of things

 

he thinks hes sold a gun thats a bit tatty round the edges but fairly described so hes not expecting any greif over it (otherwise if he was knowingly selling what he felt was a bag of spanners i suspect he'd have made damn sure he had ALL the cash paid for it first)

 

He gets in from work and finds an email saying 'gun rec'd, refund needed, its not as descrbed and if i dont get one pronto im going to police and paypal over this.

 

Thats not really going to get the most polite/considered of responses in return now is it?

 

At end of the day he did provide a refund (and in a lot quicker time than most disputes on here)

 

Kliskey didnt do anything wrong thats not the gist of my post - just that a bit more tact and a little less dire warnings and deadlines might well have acheived same results without the seller and his wife chucking their toys out the pram.

[sniper_boi]

Thats a *badgeress* and a half, sorry to here about it mate.

[Darren10]

In Ranger's defence for his spelling,he did mention he was DYSLEXIC.Mind you,some of Kliskey's spelling wasn't that good either

[PariahWolf]

In Ranger's defence for his spelling,he did mention he was DYSLEXIC.Mind you,some of Kliskey's spelling wasn't that good either 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There's a spell check. Also Kliskey's didn't take effort to read.

 

Well considering that Kliskey is willing just to swap the gun back for his money and is willing to pay for postage and paypal I don't see how he is scaming him.

 

Also from Ranger's replies it's quite obvious that he knew the gun was in ###### condition, otherwise he would be arguing about this more.

 

Anyway, hope you get this sorted Kliskey.

[RANGER 2]

I DO NOT APPOLOGISE FOR THE COMMENTS MADE ABOUT ARNIES IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY NEW DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME ON HERE IT STINKS, KLISKY FAILED TO MENTION ALL THE ABUSE I GOT, THE MESSAGES BETWEEN HIM AND MY WIFE HE COULD HAVE STOPPED AT ANYTIME AS MESSAGES DID NOT TALK ABOUT GUN RARTHER EXAMS, OH AND THANKS FOR PUTTING BOOT IN ABOUT SPELLING, ARNIES OBVIOULSY NOT ACCOMADATE PEOPLE WITH BAD DISLEXIA THAT SPELCHEAK CAN NOT EVEN SORT SOMETIMES. SLAG ME AND MY WIFE OFF ALL YOU WANT THERE'S MORE THAN 1 AIRSOFT SITE AND SOME HAVE MORE RESPECT THAN OTHERS, ME AND MY WIFE HAVE A LIFE AND DON;T NEED SYBER PALS I SUGGEST YOU LOT DO THE SAME

[Wai Hoong Chan]

Well that explains why your posts were seemingly hard to read,

 

Sorry, I detract my comments about your poor spelling, I was being ignorant.

 

However that doesn't explain away the abuse and apparent misleading of the state of the gun you're selling.

 

My apologies for mocking your Dyslexia, but not for anything else.

[kliskey]

This matter has been resolved now - The gun will be sent back on Monday morning.

I can post pictures if you want.

I apologize for my spelling, although after re reading it now I failed to spot any - Perhaps a "there" instead of a "their". So if you would like to point out my mistakes feel free to *cough* Darren *cough*

Snorkleman, looking back, perhaps not the best way to start the convo, however after being screwed in the past, i thought it might be best. - but hey never mind.

As for Ranger, I would be more then happy to post the email that were sent from me. I can assure the board that there was no abuse from my side.

[sturgis]

good to hear you've got your money back mate!

 

some people man...