ATTN:EVERYONE PLANNING TO BUY AIRSOFT FROM OVERSEA

[SilentSerpent]

Well then PILMAN you'll know how frustrating it is hearing people moan about rules that i'd welcome in the UK as an alternative to a ban.

[Mikeydog]

If you don't like the Law you might consider a petition to change the law.  We have a system here and why don't you use it.

 

Complaining to either Red Wolf or US Custom is fruitless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right now with US Customs and RedWolf the Law isn't the issue. They are stopping and sending back all guns shipped by RedWolf (at least in Oakland, and shipped via FedEx). When I talked to the lady today at US Customs she said it didn't matter if the gun was perfectly legal, they are making a point to RedWolf. She also mentioned that my gun was being inspected. so I said what if it passes, and the orange tip is fine, and the trades are fine. She said then it would just be sent back to HK.. No way would it get in right now..

 

Diddums, a bunch of yanks wont get their trades. well i'm sure all of us here in England will be opening our hearts to you when we're sitting around unable to buy guns full stop because of our stupid reactionary labour government. my heart bleeds for you America.

 

SS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not about the trades. I just want my damn gun.. Now the gun and or money will be tied up for months.. So I am screwed out of a $600 gun for now at least.. And there is absolutly nothing I can do about it. I figure all you Brits would be wining too if you spent good hard earned money just to have your product held up by no fault of your own. At least when they pass the law in your country you will know what you can and can't do. This is all about someone got a hair up their A** and decided to make a point. Regardless if the gun meets the US Requirements or not..

 

Ok I'm calm now. Breath in through the nose and out through the mouth. Goto your happy place..

 

 

Ahh rainbows and butterflies..

 

Mike

[WillBrayJr]

That's why there's American retailers Some charge fair prices and some charge outrageous prices. AEX and Precision airsoft have reasonable prices on most guns. I feel that $225.00 for a MP5-K PDW is reasonable.

[warhead56k]

GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS, WOW WOW WOW WOW, PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS GOOD NEW:

 

 

May 24, 2006 7:50 PM

 

Clearance delay

 

EATONTOWN, NJ

 

 

 

2:50 PM

 

Clearance delay

 

ANCHORAGE, AK

 

 

 

2:50 PM

 

Clearance delay

 

ANCHORAGE, AK

 

 

 

1:28 PM

 

In transit

 

ANCHORAGE, AK

 

Package available for clearance

 

1:20 PM

 

Arrived at FedEx location

 

ANCHORAGE, AK

 

 

 

5:56 PM

 

Left origin

 

CHEUNG SHA WAN HK

 

 

 

3:09 PM

 

Picked up

 

CHEUNG SHA WAN HK

 

 

 

May 22, 2006 6:13 PM

 

Package data transmitted to FedEx

 

 

 

IT IS AT EATONTOWN NOW, THAT'S LIKE 5 MILES FROM WHERE I LIVE. SORRY FOR CAPS BUT THIS SHOWS MY EXCITEMENT!!!!

[Tripod]

Let me ask you a few questions.

 

First, are you a real airsofter? If so, do you actually have orange tips on a 600+ dollar gun, that RUINS the look of the gun, making it look like some cheap toy(cheap-no, toy-yes)? When you show it to your friends, wouldn't you like to take off the orange  tip and replace it with the good looking black one? Afterwards you can just screw it back on?

Redwolf is not doing this because they feel like it, they actually want customers to enjoy the look of their guns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't play anymore, but I definitely was a real airsofter. I hold a double standard. I know I'm more intelligent than at least 80% of the world. I do not help others with removing orange tips or restoring trades not because I don't do it but because if you can't do it yourself, you're just plain stupid. Both of my SAAs (the only guns I own still) have orange tips.

 

You are COMPLETELY missing the point we're making. It's not that orange tips should always be on the gun. We have not mentioned this at all. Our point is that the customs agents are doing their job properly. Redwofl knows the rules and is not complying with them completely. There is absolutely no reason to even consider the sport of Airsoft in danger or to even bother customs agents about it. Redwolf just needs to fix how they're shipping the guns.

[alpacapaca]

You are COMPLETELY missing the point we're making.  It's not that orange tips should always be on the gun.  We have not mentioned this at all.  Our point is that the customs agents are doing their job properly.  Redwofl knows the rules and is not complying with them completely.  There is absolutely no reason to even consider the sport of Airsoft in danger or to even bother customs agents about it.  Redwolf just needs to fix how they're shipping the guns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely with you.

 

As much as some posters may feel "vandalized" by a corrupt totalitarian government wantonly defacing their expensive piece of art imitation guns... at some point we have to acquiesce in favor of reality and understand that there is a reasonable law enforcement demand for drawing a line between fake and imitation weaponry.

 

For that matter, if a significant amount of a vendor's materials are not making it through customs, it is not the job of the government to set up some special inspection procedure to make up for the vendor's lack of regard for the law. Customs is not a restaurant - it is not there to bend over backwards to get tips, and it has no reason to compromise with lazy vendors. If you want to ship something into the a country, you obey customs regulations - you do not waste taxpayer dollars and overburden our customs agencies by forcing them to hand inspect everything your company ships.

 

I cannot believe the "story" posted by warhead56k on the first page of a "poor middle class kid" whose gun was destroyed (and along with it his hopes and dreams) by an inept US beaurocracy that no longer has any regard for the well being of its citizens. If there is any single avenue for finding some kind of universal injustice in the American law system - orange tips on airsoft guns is certainly not it.

 

The problem we are presented with is not some tyrannical despotism, it is an internet vendor who let us down. Get over it.

[Erestheux]

What what?

 

Its yur Customs department thats enforcing it.  Guns are nto made for the American market, their made for the Japanese and Hong Kongians who dont have those laws.

If you ask on their form when you order, you can have the trades removed by them. which would probably look better than some bored gu at customs with a soldering iron.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

...wait, what?

 

By shipping guns without permenantly affixed orange tips on the barrel with trademarks that ignore international copyright to America, where those things are illegal, Asian retailers like Redwolf are breaking the law.

 

Hence, I wish Asian retailers would make it easier for us poor Americans to purchase their airsoft replicas. By making sure that they have permenant orange-tipped barrels and no illegal trademarks.

 

It's really quite simple.

[PILMAN]

...wait, what?

 

By shipping guns without permenantly affixed orange tips on the barrel with trademarks that ignore international copyright to America, where those things are illegal, Asian retailers like Redwolf are breaking the law.

 

Hence, I wish Asian retailers would make it easier for us poor Americans to purchase their airsoft replicas. By making sure that they have permenant orange-tipped barrels and no illegal trademarks.

 

It's really quite simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's funny it really is. Sure we can argue all day how orange tips are required and without them it's illegal to ship them into the US and how unlicensed trademarks are an infringement. Customs is "just doing their job". This is how I see it, why exactly is customs more targeted on toy guns violating a trademark rather than deporting illegal mexicans, catching drugs at the border, and protecting our borders? I honestly do not understand it. There is so many other things that are larger problems customs could be dealing with but instead because some customs agent probably had a underage child who ordered a airsoft replica and threatened his dad to give him 100 bucks for his car and a stripper we all have to suffer because someone cracked. Like I said we have the hardcore "follow the rules or die" people or those that are questioning why the heck customs is freaking out over toy guns. We all know the consequences and the cheesy responses they spit out. Personally I think the states should have the power whats legal (orange tip) and whats not but whatever.

[Jagdraben]

I make a perfectly reasonable argument and the people who hold the opposite opinion completely ignore it. Typical.

 

As it has been said, this is not about the law. US Customs has told us as much. It's about Customs waving their d___ around. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Erestheux]

I make a perfectly reasonable argument and the people who hold the opposite opinion completely ignore it. Typical.

 

As it has been said, this is not about the law. US Customs has told us as much. It's about Customs waving their d___ around. Nothing more, nothing less.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What, this?

 

It's funny how every crack down in United States history involves those who are mostly innocent and not those who violate US law out of pure malice. Those who do so out of malice, get to keep on doing so, either because US law doesn't faze them in the first place or because they're so wealthy and devious that they get 'Get Out of Jail Free' cards everytime they're brought to trial.

 

At some level I feel if my fake airsoft replica cant get through without scruitny a real weapon wont be able also, well at least I hope not

 

Why would the people who want to bring in illegal weapons use our closely guarded ports, when they can simply walk over either of our unguarded borders? Which is beside the fact that Customs engages in random sampling of the items brought through. They don't have enough time to check each and every package. This is why packages held by Customs (that is, they're being inspected) take much, much longer to reach their destination than other packages.

 

All of this is beside the point. Destroying a toy (a really expensive one at that) because of a half-assed attempt to bypass an archaic law that is abused regardless by everyone else is like jailing someone for laminating a One Dollar bill. Both are violations of US Federal Law and both are equally archaic and neither are worth the amount of money that it costs the Federal Government to enforce them (just imagine how much money the Government took out of your paycheck to enforce this law. Whether it was your gun or not, the Government wasted your money to pay to have a relatively harmless toy destroyed).

 

The problem is, ultimately, that of the US Customs, despite what many of my learn-ed fellow posters feel. It shows that the US Customs are utterly inept at pursuing the Big Fish. They are impotent in the war on terror, in keeping illegal immigrants out of the US, so what do they do? They crack down on the harmless and the innocent, so they can continue to justify their budget to Congress. Similarly, if the Secret Service were so inept, you would soon see people being arrested and prosecuted for laminating dollar bills. (And the President would probably be replacing the SS with some other agency.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah, let's ignore all the laws we don't agree with. That's fair!

 

Since others are getting away with completely seperate, different crimes that have nothing to do with what we are talking about (illegal immigration?), its okay to ignore other laws that don't even vaguely reflect them. (orange tips)

 

Sorry, you're not above the law, and ignoring it only causes annoyance. Your point makes little sense.

 

On top of that, trademarks are illegal for a very good reason. Somehow, some airsoft manufacturers are able to ignore the international copyright of real steel gun companies and their logos. In America, that is illegal. As it should be. Maybe some people want their guns that look exactly like M4's to actually say M4, but if the airsoft manufacturer doesn't have permission from the people who make M4, why should they be allowed to even copy their names? They shouldn't.

[PILMAN]

What, this?

Why would the people who want to bring in illegal weapons use our closely guarded ports, when they can simply walk over either of our unguarded borders? Which is beside the fact that Customs engages in random sampling of the items brought through. They don't have enough time to check each and every package. This is why packages held by Customs (that is, they're being inspected) take much, much longer to reach their destination than other packages.

 

All of this is beside the point. Destroying a toy (a really expensive one at that) because of a half-assed attempt to bypass an archaic law that is abused regardless by everyone else is like jailing someone for laminating a One Dollar bill. Both are violations of US Federal Law and both are equally archaic and neither are worth the amount of money that it costs the Federal Government to enforce them (just imagine how much money the Government took out of your paycheck to enforce this law. Whether it was your gun or not, the Government wasted your money to pay to have a relatively harmless toy destroyed).

 

The problem is, ultimately, that of the US Customs, despite what many of my learn-ed fellow posters feel. It shows that the US Customs are utterly inept at pursuing the Big Fish. They are impotent in the war on terror, in keeping illegal immigrants out of the US, so what do they do? They crack down on the harmless and the innocent, so they can continue to justify their budget to Congress. Similarly, if the Secret Service were so inept, you would soon see people being arrested and prosecuted for laminating dollar bills. (And the President would probably be replacing the SS with some other agency.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, let's ignore all the laws we don't agree with. That's fair!

 

Since others are getting away with completely seperate, different crimes that have nothing to do with what we are talking about (illegal immigration?), its okay to ignore other laws that don't even vaguely reflect them. (orange tips)

 

Sorry, you're not above the law, and ignoring it only causes annoyance. Your point makes little sense.

 

On top of that, trademarks are illegal for a very good reason. Somehow, some airsoft manufacturers are able to ignore the international copyright of real steel gun companies and their logos. In America, that is illegal. As it should be. Maybe some people want their guns that look exactly like M4's to actually say M4, but if the airsoft manufacturer doesn't have permission from the people who make M4, why should they be allowed to even copy their names? They shouldn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your not understanding the facts that i'm trying to bring up my self. Of course having trademarks that are unlicensed ARE illegal but there ARE airsoft companys that pay real "steel" firearms companys for permission to use the trademarks on their airsoft guns. Why should the airsoft guns with "legal" trademarks be destroyed or returned? There are plenty who paid for the right to use trademarks including western arms, classic army, ICS, I believe G&P and a few others. It's mainly Tokyo Marui that didn't pay for licenseing in the US.

[Sherlock]

It's not even April 1st. This thread is priceless.

[Erestheux]

Your not understanding the facts that i'm trying to bring up my self. Of course having trademarks that are unlicensed ARE illegal but there ARE airsoft companys that pay real "steel" firearms companys for permission to use the trademarks on their airsoft guns. Why should the airsoft guns with "legal" trademarks be destroyed or returned? There are plenty who paid for the right to use trademarks including western arms, classic army, ICS, I believe G&P and a few others. It's mainly Tokyo Marui that didn't pay for licenseing in the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are those guns returned or destroyed for that reason? I thought that airsoft guns with legal trademarks were completely legal?

[PILMAN]

Are those guns returned or destroyed for that reason? I thought that airsoft guns with legal trademarks were completely legal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've heard uninformed agents will normally seize them however i'm also hearing that it's a realism issue apparently now? Redwolf made a post saying that anything with trademarks would not be shipped out for the time being so apparently it's one of the issues.

[Mikeydog]

Just a correction. Redwolf said they wouldn't send anything with trademarks through Fedex, not that they wouldn't send anything with trademarks period

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...pic=62024&st=75

[PILMAN]

Just a correction.  Redwolf said they wouldn't send anything with trademarks through Fedex, not that they wouldn't send anything with trademarks period

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...pic=62024&st=75

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do they have an alternate carrier?

[Erestheux]

Just a correction.  Redwolf said they wouldn't send anything with trademarks through Fedex, not that they wouldn't send anything with trademarks period

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...pic=62024&st=75

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Arrghh, that's depressing if the story about the customs guy with paint thinner is true.

 

The hell amounts to "Permenantly affixed" then? You can't make orange metal. Besides, if you could, somebody could melt it off, or even cut it!

[PILMAN]

Arrghh, that's depressing if the story about the customs guy with paint thinner is true.

 

The hell amounts to "Permenantly affixed" then? You can't make orange metal. Besides, if you could, somebody could melt it off, or even cut it!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Annodizing is permanent though technically you can just paint over it. Permanent in regards would be "unremovable" though a hacksaw will make anything removeable in my opinion.

[Mikeydog]

Do they have an alternate carrier?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes they use speedpost which comes via USPS, and they also use DHL, I think..

 

Arrghh, that's depressing if the story about the customs guy with paint thinner is true.

 

The hell amounts to "Permenantly affixed" then? You can't make orange metal. Besides, if you could, somebody could melt it off, or even cut it!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah there is no such thing as permenant.. And even if there were. It's nothing that Kylon couldn't fix..

[PILMAN]

Yes they use speedpost which comes via USPS, and they also use DHL, I think..

Yeah there is no such thing as permenant..  And even if there were.  It's nothing that Kylon couldn't fix..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Speedpost, that's their more expensive 1-2 day shipping right? I think I used speedpost or express something like that but I could have sworn it was fedex.

[Mikeydog]

Speedpost, that's their more expensive 1-2 day shipping right? I think I used speedpost or express something like that but I could have sworn it was fedex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah but I don't think they charge any different. I think they just save more money going through one or the other. My gun went through FedEx, but I also have $500 worth of parts coming in a different order, and it's coming through speedpost right now.

[PILMAN]

Yeah but I don't think they charge any different.  I think they just save more money going through one or the other.  My gun went through FedEx, but I also have $500 worth of parts coming in a different order, and it's coming through speedpost right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats strange my friend got his tokyo marui ak47 from redwolf today through fedex it had a customs cleared sticker and the orange tip was removeable, no trademarks covered either. Came through anchorage.

[Sledge]

So customs aren't automatically stopping anything from Redwolf? So this thread is just total balls?

 

[PILMAN]

So customs aren't automatically stopping anything from Redwolf? So this thread is just total balls?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't think the threads completely BS I just think this paticular customs port (in california) might be seizing orders. It's not uncommon I've heard california ports are a nightmare to deal with. I haven't heard any issues with Anchorage, Alaska.

[Jagdraben]

Yeah, let's ignore all the laws we don't agree with. That's fair!

 

Laws do not carry inherent morality. Or would you have been so quickly to say this if the issue were laws about returning runaway slaves or making Jewish businesses illegal? If one finds a law to be morally lacking, it is one's duty to ignore it.

 

In this case, the law is amoral, but the execution of it is immoral.

 

Since others are getting away with completely seperate, different crimes that have nothing to do with what we are talking about (illegal immigration?), its okay to ignore other laws that don't even vaguely reflect them. (orange tips)

 

In the future I shall attempt to avoid metaphors, similes, and so forth like the plague.

 

Sorry, you're not above the law, and ignoring it only causes annoyance. Your point makes little sense.

 

My point made little sense?

 

Incompetent police agency cracks down on Small Fish because it is utterly iimpotent when it comes to the Big Fish. What the hell is so hard to understand about that?

 

On top of that, trademarks are illegal for a very good reason. Somehow, some airsoft  manufacturers are able to ignore the international copyright of real steel gun companies and their logos. In America, that is illegal. As it should be. Maybe some people want their guns that look exactly like M4's to actually say M4, but if the airsoft manufacturer doesn't have permission from the people who make M4, why should they be allowed to even copy their names? They shouldn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said anything about trades. But since you brought it up....

 

Trademark laws were invented to prevent someone from ripping off the product of someone else's imagination, making it for cheaper, and thereby reducing the ability of the person or company who put in the R&D to profit from that trademark (like a patent). In this case, the law should not apply, because these are not real guns, they do not take unfair advantage of Colt, H&K, &c's R&D time put into the guns.

 

To put it another way, no firearm manufacturer loses money because someone else put their trades on a replica. Therefore the original purpose for this law is no longer present.

 

Obviously, this does not hold true for if a firearm manufacturer were to attempt to make their own replicas and AEGs. But none do. AFAIK, American laws are so archaic that even officially licensed replicas (Steyr-licensed Classic Army AUGs, for instance) have their trades removed. Even though the original manufacturer is making money off of the trades being present on the replica/toy. Again, the original purpose of the law is violated.

 

The same applies to the orange tip law. It makes sense for replicas and toys intended for those under 18 yoa. But Airsoft cannot even be legally sold to those under the age of 18. And, in any case, the law makes no differentiation between crimes committed with a replica/toy and those committed with the real thing. Either way, you still go down for the same crime. Either way, a cop would be fully justified in gunning you down if you pulled one of these replica/toys on an officer of the law. In any case, the law does not serve its original purpose.

 

Now, one may say that if one is opposed to these laws, that one should lobby to have them changed. These people have quite obviously never attempted to lobby for anything. In our bureaucratic system of government, change takes years, decades, and centuries. It is far more efficient to ignore them. Like the Montana state law concerning Indian war parties, they are outmoded and outdated. It is more efficient to simply ignore them.

 

And if you feel this is a matter of personal safety, then you are misplacing your energies. There is few moral reasons to ignore laws concerning Speed Limits, but these are broken. Numerous times. Everyday. By nearly everyone. Speed Limits, at least, serve a purpose and work to make people safer (by rewarding slower, safer drivers and punishing faster, more reckless ones... in theory). Trademark laws and orange tip laws do neither.