Frenchie has resigned as Chairman of UKARA

[Sale]

Now this is a bit funny.

 

What we have here is a bunch of players arguing whether or not one retailer broke a deal with other retailers (UKARA), and what the other retailers should do about it. And whether it has anything to do with the resignation of the chairman of UKARA.

 

Before the facts roll in with warden Andrews, it's all just rumours. There's a question mark over these:

 

Why exactly did Frenchie resign?

Did Z1 actually breach UKARA rules?

What should other UKARA members do about it?

Why would a player give a toss?

 

Disputes between retailers aren't going to suddenly change the law or anything. You, as players, are free to shop at any shop you want to, and you can choose where you are a member (or if you want to be a member of anything at all).

 

-Sale

[kizuna132]

this is sad day i think. we better hope there is no long term impacts on airsoft in the uk

 

thank you dazzjw for pointing this all out for us

[Libris]

The UKARA database wasn't set up to demonstrate anything to anyone, it was designed to make life easier for member retailers, so they could just look at the database instead of checking each new customer personally, etc.

 

Whether is was set up or not to do so, the UKARA database did demonstrate to the government that the airsoft retailers are (or apparently were) seriously concerned as a business community about identifying skirmishers.

 

Is HMV part of the UK music-listening community or is it just a shop selling music? Is Halfords part of the UK cycling community or is it just a shop selling bikes? Do you get where I'm going here?

 

Not really. Shops selling airsoft guns could potentially be breaking the law with every sale.

 

It's not up to retailers to police the "community," nor should it be. That's what ABA/UKAPA should be doing, but sadly they keep ceasing to exist because trying to herd the cats gets too demoralising...

 

This is quite true but if they don't then the government will step in, see that it's like herding a bunch of cats, see that it's going to be too much hassle and just cancel the defence. They did it with real guns without as much as second thought to the business's involved or the enthusiasts.

 

 

 

 

 

[creepingfear]

Good point, and when LW admitted their breach of UKARA's rules, UKARA issued a statement almost immediately and LW were dealt with quicker than a quick thing...........

[imp1864]

and lo and behold, there in lies the problem. its double standards on behalf of UKARA. landwarrior get nailed to a wall, zero one does the same thing and not so much as a sweek out of UKARA. i agreee with every one who says its a retailers dispute. I for one have never believed that UKARA should have as much say as they do. the only reason they have is because they did what we didn't, shut up, formed up and at least to the public stopped trying to *badgeress* and outego each other. now its all gone a bit ratsh*t, why is anyones guess. post christmas slow up, less people wanting to jump through hoops, personal imports? Your guess is a good as mine, but one thing is for sure retailers sell, thats it primary mission. Yes, you get on with them, yes they're nice people, but like the rest of us they also have to make a living. frenchie, tim, and every one else spent years on this. WE let it go. WE did not stand and say I'll go. we ended up with UKARA. The irish republic has a governing body IAA. take a look at their website and see what they did. for years anything like airsoft was illegal in the republic. they fought the law and won what they wanted, not half measures, not an approximation, what they wanted. I for one salute them. Its time to stop hiding behind the safety of forums and organise into a force for the greater good of our sport. are you telling me thay we don't have lawyers and solicitiors who air soft, are you telling me taht collectivly we do not have access to polititians, web designers who could start a page for us. Are we legion? or a pretence, whinging endlessly on, but not willing to do anything about it. Pat.

[imp1864]

by the was if you want to herd cats lead them with ham. think about it

[DazJW]

Why exactly did Frenchie resign?

Because his faith in the UKARA system was shaken so much by this incident.

 

Did Z1 actually breach UKARA rules?

Yes.

 

What should other UKARA members do about it?

Serious disciplinary action against Zero One/Ground Zero, scaled proportionally to LWA's punishment.

 

Why would a player give a toss?

Because Z1/GZ are undermining an organisation (of which they are a core member) which is supposed to be helping people to continue buying RIFs for airsofting. If the closest thing we have to a representative body can't stick to it's own rules it's not going to look great in any government review of the defense. It's excellent ammo for people like the GCN who are bad enough when they're making stuff up, I don't think they really need to be gifted an angle of attack.

 

Now that this is out is it not arguable that any retailer which uses the UKARA database to check a buyer's info is no longer showing "due diligence", as they are checking against a database known to hold false information?

[creepingfear]

Emailled to me by a mate of mine who has ASC access:

 

Statement on behalf of myself as current UKARA Admin and committee member.

 

I am very unhappy that Frenchie has resigned as Chairman, although he has, he is still in contact and will be involved, I hope, in sorting all this matter out.

I quite understand why he has resigned.

 

I have been and will continue to act as Admin for UKARA, unless told otherwise, and as such have already issued notification to Ground Zero that their game site advertising is breaking UKARA rules and I await a reply.

 

I cannot for the life of me understand why some retailers have apparently thought they could bend, break or ignore the VCRA regulations or the rules they signed up to when joining UKARA.

Retail sale have been very poor post 1st October ( In my opinion ) but that is not an excuse for anybody to act in a reckless manner.

 

I have not been paying a great deal of attention to the forums this month and the first I heard of this was a few days ago from Frenchie.

January was supposed to be our Airsoft month off, but we have spent most of it trying to recapture cattle that some right to roamer let out, and we still have 20 loose around the surrounding couple of square miles.

 

I have however been answering all / most mail aimed at the UKARA site and processing Game Site applications etc. I have had no mail concerning this matter from third parties directed at UKARA.

 

With Land Warrior the whole affair was quite simple, there was self evident hard copy proof of deliberate misconduct, they got caught they got suspended in way designed to do the least harm to players, case closed.

 

With this new matter there would appear to be various allegations aimed at possibly more than one retailer and or possible game site/s, it is up to UKARA to sort out this matter where it is in contravention of UKARA rules.

 

If there are criminal charges to answer to then that is up to the appropriate authorities not UKARA.

 

I think we all wish this to be settled, blame attributed, and appropriate penalties dealt out, but I would also hope nobody would wish vindictiveness or kangaroo court justice to be involved at the detriment of Airsoft and its players.

 

Ironfoot and MIA are not involved in any of these irregularities, perhaps because we don't suffer the same financial burden of most shop and sites, perhaps because we are old fashioned and still believe in being honestly and straightforward.

 

UKARA as an association and the database :- despite the current and previous problem I still think that the UKARA system is the best that's available and I believe that most of the retailers and most of the game site are acting in good faith and honestly observing the rules and conditions, and it is this group I feel most for and is, I think, a major reason Frenchie has quit.

 

If once all the information has been gathered and filtered and blame can be proven and attributed I expect suitable corrective action to be taken by UKARA in-line with offences, but that will be a matter for UKARA and not anybody else.

This will take time and must be done in a manner which causes the least damage to Airsoft as a whole.

 

If its not done to what I consider acceptable standards then I will certainly also resign from the UKARA board.

 

[imp1864]

Because his faith in the UKARA system was shaken so much by this incident.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Serious disciplinary action against Zero One/Ground Zero, scaled proportionally to LWA's punishment.

 

 

Because Z1/GZ are undermining an organisation (of which they are a core member) which is supposed to be helping people to continue buying RIFs for airsofting. If the closest thing we have to a representative body can't stick to it's own rules it's not going to look great in any government review of the defense. It's excellent ammo for people like the GCN who are bad enough when they're making stuff up, I don't think they really need to be gifted an angle of attack.

 

Now that this is out is it not arguable that any retailer which uses the UKARA database to check a buyer's info is no longer showing "due diligence", as they are checking against a database known to hold false information?

 

 

what have just said? If we are so angry with UKARA, vote with your wallets. UKARA= retailers, retailers need customers. no customers no sales. this is not rocket science. why are we not hitting the media?, liasing with police, local government?. why we have no representation apart from UKARA. good god, AI magazine writs about them as if they are the answer to a prayers. why has no one approached them? Why not steal from our good friends at GCN and the answer "well they have government approval,ect" won't wash.

[creepingfear]

AI write about them because some of the Core members pay for advertisement space!

 

Actually I wonder whether AI will have this incident in one of their next issues? Did they have an article about the LW incident? I don't know as I never buy toilet paper.

[chris u'5]

I never buy toilet paper.

What do you wipe your backside with then? Your hand?

[cazboab]

From reading the thread on ASCUK and expand slightly on Dazjw's answers to hopefully cut off the next few questions:

 

Why exactly did Frenchie resign?

 

Frenchie pointed out to the UKARA committee that z1 had broken the 3 skirmishes over not less than 2 months rule for registration on the UKARA database, and the committee decided that it was okay for Z1 to do it.(this information comes from one of the other folk who works at airsoft Scotland posted on ASCUK)

 

Did Z1 actually breach UKARA rules?

Yes. They agreed to abide by the restriction of no less than 3 skirmishes over no less than 2 months for new members, and didn't and admited to such when asked by frenchie.(as above)

 

What should other UKARA members do about it?

One would assume something similar to the punishment Landwarrior was given for a very similar occurrence- removal of their ability to ad new registration and any and all questionable entries removed. Removing their ability to check registration details isn't in my opinion the best way to deal with it(as it wasn't with LW), they should definitely loose their status as a core UKARA member and any benefits such as voting rights that go along with that status.

 

Why would a player give a toss?

In Finland or Hong Kong there's no reason to. Its hard enough to understand the difference between laws, home office regulation and self imposed regulations on purchasing new replicas in the UK if you actually live here, so forgive me if I don't explain this too well(or wait for pablo to fix it), but essentially we're allowed to buy new replicas even though its illegal, because "we"(the home office would make no distinction between airsofters importing privately and airsoft retailers) agreed to self regulate, whereby only genuine skirmishers would be able to purchase realistic replicas.

 

If "we" are seen to flaunt the regulations "we" agreed with the home office (3 skirmishes over 2 or more months) then the case for self regulation is null and void, and the worst case is the home office can change their regulations to say that airsoft skirmishing is no longer an acceptable defence for importing, buying, selling or manufacturing realistic imitation firearms.

[imp1864]

AI write about them because some of the Core members pay for advertisement space!

 

Actually I wonder whether AI will have this incident in one of their next issues? Did they have an article about the LW incident? I don't know as I never buy toilet paper.

 

 

I believe they did, if I remmber correctly it was a very small article. right I have to check that. If I'm wrong I will flay myself with a cheese grater.

[Marlowe]

As the thread has now started to get very far off tangent, I think it may be wise to close it until more facts about this matter are presented.

 

Everyone appears to have had a choice to voice their opinions, but as most of what has been said is based upon personal conjecture, I think it would be best if anyone wishing to comment further wait until more information is available. At that time, if someone wishes to request the thread be re-opened, I'll be happy to oblige.

 

Until that point please be satisfied with Cazboab's summary of this latest episode of Airsoft melodrama, and feel free to view the rest of the forums.

[Pablo]

Just to add to Cazboab's post:

 

According to my source (and Gmac's post above), UKARA haven't decided anything about Z1 yet - in fact they haven't met since October - so either my source is wrong, or the decision about whether to take action against Z1 hasn't been made yet.