Richwatts2002 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Hey this is the spirit! We're brainstorming now could lead to something ingenious! Just need someone who has dabbled in aerodynamics to put a comment in well the theory that a heavier weight at the front is a sound one, its essentially how arrows work as they have a forward center of gravity, meaning that there is more arrow behind the center of gravity than the front, to some extent this theory should work with the bbs. the main problem that has been stated is imparting spin to the projectile & having sufficient power behind the bb to make it worth while. maybe a custom made round with a semi flexible skirt at the back & custom barrels with propper rifleing this would work like old muzzle loaded miniball ammo as used with flintlock or percusion lock rifles, yet again is only an idea guys & feel free to shoot me down. Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 This spin thing is overrated. I will not go into details, but it is very easy to achieve without massive FPS or deforming bullets or casting magic. I have the whole system designed, I just need to obtain some aerodinamically correct, high quality 6mm, plastic projectiles in the 0.3-0.4 weight range. Any hint on that? Link to post Share on other sites
Richwatts2002 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 This spin thing is overrated. I will not go into details, but it is very easy to achieve without massive FPS or deforming bullets or casting magic. I have the whole system designed, I just need to obtain some aerodinamically correct, high quality 6mm, plastic projectiles in the 0.3-0.4 weight range. Any hint on that? would think that they would be a full on custom job bud! dont see what you mean when you say "spin thing is overated"! a spinning projectile has gyroscopic stability & will fly farther & more acuratly than a non rotating projectile as has been proved since the conception of rifleing! not having a go just really curious! Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I mean the way to obtain the spin. I've read through plenty of pages about this and most of them were centered around the way to apply the the correct amount of spin. The topics seem to go in circles. Like: Add fins or use rifling. Fins are problematic, because they may cause cuts and the RAP4 suck. Rifling is problematic because of low power and high friction. Also regular rifling will provide inadequate spin to stabilize the trajectory at low power. If you cranck up the power the rifling will start to work properly, but the muzzle energy willl be waaaaay over any limits. Somewhere around the 5-10J region or above. That is not good, how about fins? Fins are problematic... I'm reluctant to spend money to custom make the projectiles. I'm not convinced that they will fly further on safe energy levels. Or even fly as far as a BB with hopup on the same energy level. However if I had spec projectiles, I would be able to test how does it stand up against the regular BB+hopup combo. As I said, bullet side spin is not a problem. Feeding is not a problem. Best projectile shape (safe and stable) and sample manufacturing is a problem. If the system is usable (comparable range, increased accuracy, affordable ammo), it would be easy to mount it into bolt action rilfes, such as the L96 or the VSR and of course into my M82 (that would be semi auto). Link to post Share on other sites
Richwatts2002 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I mean the way to obtain the spin. I've read through plenty of pages about this and most of them were centered around the way to apply the the correct amount of spin. The topics seem to go in circles. Like: Add fins or use rifling. Fins are problematic, because they may cause cuts and the RAP4 suck. Rifling is problematic because of low power and high friction. Also regular rifling will provide inadequate spin to stabilize the trajectory at low power. If you cranck up the power the rifling will start to work properly, but the muzzle energy willl be waaaaay over any limits. Somewhere around the 5-10J region or above. That is not good, how about fins? Fins are problematic... I'm reluctant to spend money to custom make the projectiles. I'm not convinced that they will fly further on safe energy levels. Or even fly as far as a BB with hopup on the same energy level. However if I had spec projectiles, I would be able to test how does it stand up against the regular BB+hopup combo. As I said, bullet side spin is not a problem. Feeding is not a problem. Best projectile shape (safe and stable) and sample manufacturing is a problem. If the system is usable (comparable range, increased accuracy, affordable ammo), it would be easy to mount it into bolt action rilfes, such as the L96 or the VSR and of course into my M82 (that would be semi auto). right that has cleared it up thanks for that! was putting some thought into custom projectiles last night & the only thing i tought of was to mold them yourself but then the problem is finnish & consistancy of round! my dad used to make his own ammo for his magnum that he used for practical pistol so could put the question to him & see if he has any ideas on the subject! Link to post Share on other sites
Kipper Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Didn't someone make some sniper ammo not too long ago? A year or so (maybe 2) And don't forget the old Asahi M40/M700 which used to fire those 'blade bullet' things. Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 You mean the RAP4 airfins? They are supposed to be utter ######. 0.19g only and low build quality. The Asahi blade bullets are impossible to get. I couldn't even find a decent picture about them. Noone sells them anymore. I even considered the light plastic Prometheus pellets but they would need some spec barrel because they come in .22 size. Link to post Share on other sites
Kipper Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Ah yeah they're the ones. There used to be a review on AirsoftPlayers of an Asahi M40 but the website doesn't exist anymore. It had great pictures of the blade bullets and the system. Might be worth trying to track it down, see if it was copied anywhere or cached. Link to post Share on other sites
TDS Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I mean the way to obtain the spin. I've read through plenty of pages about this and most of them were centered around the way to apply the the correct amount of spin. The topics seem to go in circles. Like: Add fins or use rifling. Fins are problematic, because they may cause cuts and the RAP4 suck. Rifling is problematic because of low power and high friction. Also regular rifling will provide inadequate spin to stabilize the trajectory at low power. If you cranck up the power the rifling will start to work properly, but the muzzle energy willl be waaaaay over any limits. Somewhere around the 5-10J region or above. That is not good, how about fins? Fins are problematic... I'm reluctant to spend money to custom make the projectiles. I'm not convinced that they will fly further on safe energy levels. Or even fly as far as a BB with hopup on the same energy level. However if I had spec projectiles, I would be able to test how does it stand up against the regular BB+hopup combo. As I said, bullet side spin is not a problem. Feeding is not a problem. Best projectile shape (safe and stable) and sample manufacturing is a problem. If the system is usable (comparable range, increased accuracy, affordable ammo), it would be easy to mount it into bolt action rilfes, such as the L96 or the VSR and of course into my M82 (that would be semi auto). Look up the asahi blade bullet, inset fins that have no risk of cutting, also only chance of getting what you want. rifled barrel systems have to be for a specific fps range, the faster the bullet goes the faster it's going to spin and you will get different results. Link to post Share on other sites
fr3sh Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 ok just a suggestion. its true that rifled barrels work on higher fps, but if you increase the 'rifled-ness' (hope you know what I mean) can that compensate it enough to work on a slower fps? p.s. by rifled-ness lol I mean concentrate the rifling within the barrel, so more loops Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 My google-fu is appearently not strong enough. Could not find any relevant picture (threads and infos, yes, pictures, no) or a store that sells it. If you now anyone who has a few I'd glady buy a dozen. Link to post Share on other sites
fr3sh Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Does anyone know what it looked like? Maybe it can be recreated or we can hassle an airsoft manufacturer enough so that they make them again lol. I searched for it in google images came back with a samurai - go figure Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 At 4:28 Some comments about the asahi blade bullets here: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:PE11P...lient=firefox-a Link to post Share on other sites
scorch Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 After all that searching and waiting, it looked a bit disappointing. Link to post Share on other sites
Slim_Shady Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 There was an accuracy review of the Blades a while back but even with net archives I can't seem to find it - suffice to say for all the trouble a fin-stabilised design would cause in the development process the net results downranged weren't (as far as I can remember) worth it. Link to post Share on other sites
fr3sh Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 After all that searching and waiting, it looked a bit disappointing. I have to agree with you there, it didn't look anything like a blade bullet in my mind would on another topic that asahi m40 oh my gosh I want 1 I want 1! shame there are only like 40 left in the world Link to post Share on other sites
babuka Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Nice topic Have to admit, one day (sorry, one night) I had a very strange dream... Dream was about airsoft skirmish game somewhere in woodland I never been before. What made that dream strange - one guy was with a wide-barrel shotgun. When he shoot - the net flew from the barrel driven by attached BBs. That way he had captured an enemy. Second episode which made me very confused was about a debate between marshall and a player. Marshal said he is suspecting that this player using a spring over limit, i.e. BBs from his gun flew far to much away, almost twice distance than usually. And a player answered that he is using a spring in his gun within the limit, just different BBs. New BBs - they have special inclusion of tiny bit of much heavy plastic in the middle. Not right in the middle - slightly aside. And that moves the centre of gravity and BBs spin in the air and able to keep more energy. I'm not a technician in aerodynamics and it was just a dream. But... Link to post Share on other sites
AnotherJesus Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Well, there's no guarantee you'd ever get the center of gravity axis spinning the right way. It would likely throw the BB off in all sorts of funny directions. The reason SGMs are so good, is they have very few air bubbles. So a consistent center of gravity. Link to post Share on other sites
fr3sh Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Well... I'll have to get a bag of .12s and .43s to try this out lol Link to post Share on other sites
scar527 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 has anyone thought of making bb's with dimples, sorta like golf balls? I remember golf balls were originally just smooth, and then someone started tinkering and added dimples over the years, and vwella! I am not sure(correct me if i'm wrong), but wouldn't having dimples improve the flightpath, especially if you have backspin? Just food for thought, Hope that helps, Scar Link to post Share on other sites
TDS Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 has anyone thought of making bb's with dimples, sorta like golf balls? I remember golf balls were originally just smooth, and then someone started tinkering and added dimples over the years, and vwella! I am not sure(correct me if i'm wrong), but wouldn't having dimples improve the flightpath, especially if you have backspin? Just food for thought, Hope that helps, Scar BB's are not large enough to have a similiar effect Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I've heard of experiments with dimpled paintball, both conventional paintfilled and solid nylon versions. They were ballistically worse than normal paintballs in both range and accuracy. And it is economically impractical. http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache%3aPE1...lient=firefox-a Link to post Share on other sites
AnotherJesus Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I had the feeling someone was actually bringing out a dimpled BB. Thing I worried about, was that the dimples would mean each BB would sit in a different place in the hop. So you'd have terrible accuracy issues. Good flight path maby, extra range, no doubt. Not worth it if you can't hit a target though. Link to post Share on other sites
Pendra Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Search for Bioval BBB dimplex you will find some ?test results? a pic and marketing text. Link to post Share on other sites
fr3sh Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Search for Bioval BBB dimplex you will find some ?test results? a pic and marketing text. So are these available then and do they work with hop-up? I read the test it said something about a '6.1mm tightbore teflon coated inner barrel' - I assume 6.01mm but what inner barrels are teflon coated?? Link to post Share on other sites
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