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Apocalypsemeow

www.fire-support.co.uk

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You're annoyed at them lying, when you yourself lied to us and FireSupport regarding what gas you used?

What lie? I didn't lie, to me Cybergun gas was cybergun gas! You can't expect everyone to be educated in gas pressures and it doesn't even say "summer" or "winter" on the cans.

Anyway it doesn't change the fact that it's a con selling a gun without any recommendations at all, I mean jeez, you're going to sell a lot of Maruis if all your customers are using Walther gas! What a scam!!

Oh and by the way Fire Support is out of stock for Abbey Predator 144a, the recommended gas for Marui....coincidence?" Nevermind if they don't have any I'll just get some Ultrair, they say it's fine....it's only 30°c outside"^^

Who gives a damn if the item got here quickly or not or whether communication was good when your 200€ gun doesn't work after one game?!

By the way, they should have first asked me to send the gun to have a look at it before blaming me for using the wrong gas...who knows, it might be a manufacturing problem, there is no such thing as zero defect;)

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What lie? I didn't lie, to me Cybergun gas was cybergun gas! You can't expect everyone to be educated in gas pressures and it doesn't even say "summer" or "winter" on the cans.

Anyway it doesn't change the fact that it's a con selling a gun without any recommendations at all, I mean jeez, you're going to sell a lot of Maruis if all your customers are using Walther gas! What a scam!!

Oh and by the way Fire Support is out of stock for Abbey Predator 144a, the recommended gas for Marui....coincidence?" Nevermind if they don't have any I'll just get some Ultrair, they say it's fine....it's only 30°c outside"^^

Who gives a damn if the item got here quickly or not or whether communication was good when your 200€ gun doesn't work after one game?!

By the way, they should have first asked me to send the gun to have a look at it before blaming me for using the wrong gas...who knows, it might be a manufacturing problem, there is no such thing as zero defect;)

 

Firesupport state you should only use Cybergun SUMMER gas in Marui GBBs on their warranty page. You stated you did, at first. Now you change your story and admit you used "the wrong gas :( ". Any good legal advisor will tell you that a retailer only needs to put up a link on their website to the terms and conditions of a warranty that is to be given upon sale of a product. Do you really, really want every single product page on every website of every online retailer to state details already mentioned in the warranties they provide?

 

You used the wrong gas.

You tried to convince others of wrongdoing by FS, stating you had done as instructed.

You then admitted fault.

 

The fact that they provided recommendations and made them readily available to be viewed by everyone means the onus is on you not them and they are well within their rights to say what they have.

 

Your arguement is nearly as flawed as a motorist complaining to the dealership he bought a car from, demanding his money back, for the fact his petrol car won't run on the diesel he just filled it with. Take responsibility and make sure to fish out all the details provided in warranties in future. Fingers crossed it will save other retailers from having their names sullied due to ignorance.

Edited by Phubar
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I disagree still and they won't hear from me again as it's their responsibility to make sure customers won't be disatisfied as opposed to just covering THEIR asses by slipping a tiny sentence on the warranty page mentioning a gas nobody uses!

I'll leave it at that now knowing some will unfortunately endure the same dilemma.

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I'm sorry but anyone who's bought a Marui pistol generally knows to run 144a gas with it. Be that predator or cybergun. As long as its duster gas. Perhaps a bit of research as to what you were buying would of helped before purchasing it?

Before I buy any GBB I look into their gas efficiency, range, accuracy and durability through reviews. The only time you can run green gas or red gas with a TM is if it's a fully upgraded pistol with a metal kit. This is on your head whether or not you want to acknowledge that is your own problem. Perhaps in future look into what you're buying and don't rely on what retailers state on their sites.

 

Many of the UK retailers sites don't even go into the basics of what you're buying. Since fire-support state cybergun summer gas it would of been fairly obvious to run it with a gas that is of equal power.

Edited by Sam-Beta

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I'm sorry but anyone who's bought a Marui pistol generally knows to run 144a gas with it. Be that predator or cybergun. As long as its duster gas. Perhaps a bit of research as to what you were buying would of helped before purchasing it?

Before I buy any GBB I look into their gas efficiency, range, accuracy and durability through reviews. The only time you can run green gas or red gas with a TM is if it's a fully upgraded pistol with a metal kit. This is on your head whether or not you want to acknowledge that is your own problem. Perhaps in future look into what you're buying and don't rely on what retailers state on their sites.

 

Many of the UK retailers sites don't even go into the basics of what you're buying. Since fire-support state cybergun summer gas it would of been fairly obvious to run it with a gas that is of equal power.

 

Point made ;)

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The only time you can run green gas or red gas with a TM is if it's a fully upgraded pistol with a metal kit.

 

I disagree. I have had thousands of rounds each through my TM pistols and I have used nothing but green gas and whatever the most 'powerful' I could find. I've yet to have one break on me. I know plenty of other people in the exact same boat as me too.

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I disagree. I have had thousands of rounds each through my TM pistols and I have used nothing but green gas and whatever the most 'powerful' I could find. I've yet to have one break on me. I know plenty of other people in the exact same boat as me too.

 

I ran red gas through a 5.7 and the frame nearly shattered. I've run green through a desert eagle and had a simular affair. Running green through a TM during winter is fine, but during a hot summer day it's not something I'd recommend.

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I'm not saying it doesn't happen, quality control can always fail, but to say that the only time you can run green gas with TM pistols is when you have fully upgraded it with a metal body is a load of tish. Thousands and thousands of people all over the world use green gas in TM pistols with no issues whatsoever.

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I'm not saying it doesn't happen, quality control can always fail, but to say that the only time you can run green gas with TM pistols is when you have fully upgraded it with a metal body is a load of tish. Thousands and thousands of people all over the world use green gas in TM pistols with no issues whatsoever.

I disagree with you, it's not a matter of quality control!! 134a is the RECOMMENDED gas!

Doing research I've found plenty busted up guns from using green, here's just one of many:

 

226x.jpg

 

Temperature is an essential factor when deciding what gas to use! (see, I learn quickly^^)

Edited by Mack Bolan

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I disagree with you, it's not a matter of quality control!! 134a is the RECOMMENDED gas!

Doing research I've found plenty busted up guns from using green, here's just one of many:

 

Temperature is an essential factor when deciding what gas to use! (see, I learn quickly^^)

 

Of course temperature is a factor when deciding what gas to use and of course you are going to find examples of broken pistols but what you generally won't hear about are all of the perfectly serviceable pistols that are used with green gas.

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The Five-SeveN, Deagle, and XDM I've heard of problems with Green gas; However, I've owned many TM pistols, and I've never had a problem with any 1911, Detonics, Hicapa, PX4 or Beretta 92's using Green Gas; On particularly hot days I've had the slide of a G17 jump off the rails at the rear, but without causing damage.

 

Saying that, I've seen evidence of XDM's blowing the cylinder, Five-seveN's generally annihilating themselves and Deagles having issues on Green Gas.

 

In the end though - I know certain TM models will handle Green Gas and run like trains on them; I know there's an increased likelihood of damage, but I'm willing to run the risk - However, I'm also fully aware the risk I'm taking is a broken gun I have to repair myself.

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This has turned into one hell of a discussion that no longer has anything to do with Firesupport.

 

All I want to say on the point is this... Mack Bolan, do you really expect Firesupport to go out of their way and state exactly what gases can and can't be used in each pistol they sell? If so, they may as well stop selling guns right now, it'll take them decades to research and test every single gas available on the planet with every single pistol they sell.

 

As has been mentioned, they do make a recommendation of what should/shouldn't be used, the rest is down to common sense. It's a massively well known fact that the recommended gas for TM pistols in 134a/144a/Duster. Most cans of gas state what is in them anyway, so all it would have taken was for you to check your can, google it, and find out other people's experiences were!

 

So, i'm sorry your pistol is broken, but blaming Firesupport is wrong. You used the wrong gas, you voided the warranty by doing so, and Firesupport were well within their rights to say no to fixing it. for free.

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This has turned into one hell of a discussion that no longer has anything to do with Firesupport.

 

All I want to say on the point is this... Mack Bolan, do you really expect Firesupport to go out of their way and state exactly what gases can and can't be used in each pistol they sell?

 

 

They could and should do it, at least refering to the gases they sell.

 

It's a massively well known fact that the recommended gas for TM pistols in 134a/144a/Duster. Most cans of gas state what is in them anyway, so all it would have taken was for you to check your can, google it, and find out other people's experiences were!

 

 

 

Untrue. People all over are using the gas they found in the shop where they bought their gun or just using ultrair because their buddies (who have full metal KJWs) use it!

The info is really hard to find and retailers generally know """"" and just jumped on the airsoft band wagon.

 

By the way, why does Fire Support recommand Cibergun gas in the warranty and not Abbey Predator 144a which is the true equivalent to Japanese 134a???

Do they have an exclusivity deal with them? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Cybergun the exclusive importer of TM guns?

 

The Five-SeveN, Deagle, and XDM I've heard of problems with Green gas; However, I've owned many TM pistols, and I've never had a problem with any 1911, Detonics, Hicapa, PX4 or Beretta 92's using Green Gas; On particularly hot days I've had the slide of a G17 jump off the rails at the rear, but without causing damage.

 

Saying that, I've seen evidence of XDM's blowing the cylinder, Five-seveN's generally annihilating themselves and Deagles having issues on Green Gas.

 

In the end though - I know certain TM models will handle Green Gas and run like trains on them; I know there's an increased likelihood of damage, but I'm willing to run the risk - However, I'm also fully aware the risk I'm taking is a broken gun I have to repair myself.

 

Yes we "hear a lot of things" but nothing clearly said on the website (when I buy a Marui,knowing their reliability, the warranty is something I look at if I have a problem, it's not something one tends to be concerned with when getting a new gun (the safety, fps, reviews, canon length, upgrade possibilities...etc).For each gun there should be a mention of the adequate gas(es) for the specific gun ( depending on t°c).

Using the wrong gas, contrarily to Hwagan, was not" a risk I was willing to pay" :(

And as for repairing guns, some of my friends are really good but Marui replacement parts are like hens' teeth (except Hi Capas and 1911s)!

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They could and should do it, at least refering to the gases they sell.

 

Untrue. People all over are using the gas they found in the shop where they bought their gun or just using ultrair because their buddies (who have full metal KJWs) use it!

The info is really hard to find and retailers generally know """"" and just jumped on the airsoft band wagon.

 

By the way, why does Fire Support recommand Cibergun gas in the warranty and not Abbey Predator 144a which is the true equivalent to Japanese 134a???

Do they have an exclusivity deal with them? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Cybergun the exclusive importer of TM guns?

 

 

 

Yes we "hear a lot of things" but nothing clearly said on the website (when I buy a Marui,knowing their reliability, the warranty is something I look at if I have a problem, it's not something one tends to be concerned with when getting a new gun (the safety, fps, reviews, canon length, upgrade possibilities...etc).For each gun there should be a mention of the adequate gas(es) for the specific gun ( depending on t°c).

Using the wrong gas, contrarily to Hwagan, was not" a risk I was willing to pay" :(

And as for repairing guns, some of my friends are really good but Marui replacement parts are like hens' teeth (except Hi Capas and 1911s)!

 

 

Ummm Cybergun don't import any TM guns. Also as I said Cybergun summer gas is the equivalent to duster gas. It's all down to common sense. Fire-support aren't in the wrong here.

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They could and should do it, at least refering to the gases they sell.

 

Why? They already state as such in the warranty page which is all they, and other retailers, are required by law to do.

 

By the way, why does Fire Support recommand Cibergun gas in the warranty and not Abbey Predator 144a which is the true equivalent to Japanese 134a???

Do they have an exclusivity deal with them? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Cybergun the exclusive importer of TM guns?

 

That's a question to ask the retailer themselves. But IIRC CG are trying to get a monopoly on the market by driving out TM and other competitors.

 

Yes we "hear a lot of things" but nothing clearly said on the website (when I buy a Marui,knowing their reliability, the warranty is something I look at if I have a problem, it's not something one tends to be concerned with when getting a new gun (the safety, fps, reviews, canon length, upgrade possibilities...etc).For each gun there should be a mention of the adequate gas(es) for the specific gun ( depending on t°c).

 

They already have mentioned it. It's in the warranty.

 

What you are asking is for the retailer to test every single pistol type and record their findings. If the retailer does so, they must then mark the product as used as a demo model, therefore lopping off value from the RRP. It also takes up more hours in labour inputting the info into each page, saying the same thing over and over, which is why it is stated in the warranty so it can blanket cover the issue concerning all TM GBB pistols in general, whilst keeping costs to a minimum. Taking the hypothetical route as I described really isn't going to help their revenues, especially in today's economic climate, is it? The retailer gets the same info given to them by the manufacturer as the end user receives in the instruction handbook of Marui GBB pistols "Only 134a gas or equivalent to be used". Firesupport have noted this in the warranty which blankets all GBB TM pistols, and as the warranty is posted on their website's frontpage as according to the laws of this country, I can't for the life of me see how you find it hard to locate this.

 

In British contract law, if the information is provided by the retailer in the warranty or on the page describing the product, the customer is the one at fault if they do not read it as it is classed as being their choice whether to do so or not.

Edited by Phubar
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Phubar said "What you are asking is for the retailer to test every single pistol type and record their findings. "

They don't need to do research, they just need to know and make sure their customers know and are fully satisfied and do not blame TM like I've been hearing at airsoft games lately.

TM makes the ultimate pistols and deserves retailers to make sure the gun will used as it's been designed to. Pity people have to spend tons of cash to become "educated" but then again "in today's economic climate" people gotta make money!

 

 

Loadout

TM L96 + PDI internals (465 FPS)

TM M14 + Guarder/SHS internals (356 FPS)

G&P M7A1 (300 FPS)

G&P Mk.23 Stoner (330 FPS)

TM Mk.23 Socom (345 FPS)

 

 

@ Phubar: I see in your "loadout" above you have a TM Mk23 clocking 345 Fps, what type of gas do you use to attain this velocity may I ask?

Edited by Mack Bolan

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The MK23 is a non blow back pistol AFAIK? A lot of the issues with TM pistols and high pressure gas is the slides crack or break. When the slide is fixed I don't see that issue cropping up.

Edited by Sam-Beta

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Loadout

TM L96 + PDI internals (465 FPS)

TM M14 + Guarder/SHS internals (356 FPS)

G&P M7A1 (300 FPS)

G&P Mk.23 Stoner (330 FPS)

TM Mk.23 Socom (345 FPS)

 

 

@ Phubar: I see in your "loadout" above you have a TM Mk23 clocking 345 Fps, what type of gas do you use to attain this velocity may I ask?

 

Green Gas. I skirmish with Phubar and he's a good friend of mine, so hopefully he won't mind me answering on his behalf here. Like myself, Phubar is happy enough that the TM produced pistols he owns, in the UK climate, are perfectly capable of handling Green Gas without suffering damage as a result. Like me, Phubar is happy that the benefits of running his pistols on Green Gas outweigh the very minor risk of failure in his specific models of pistol. My Foliage Warrior cycles and performs like an absolute nutcase on Green Gas, and I'm thoroughly confident, short of a ridiculous heatwave, that it will continue to do so. If it breaks, I will buy replacement parts and repair it myself, or send it off to be repaired and pay the full cost due to my deliberate, calculated, considered voidance of the warranty.

 

The long and short of it is this;

 

1: You voided the warranty on your gun. Unfortunately, due to a very hot day and high pressure gas, it's suffered a failure. I know that's annoying, and you have my condolences. However, FireSupport aren't even in the slightest bit at fault. At all. In any way, shape, or form. They've abided by the retail law they're obliged to, and frankly there's absolutely no cause for harming their hard earned and excellent reputation as a result.

 

2: Some models of TM pistols are fine on Green Gas. There are plenty of ways to research and establish which models of TM pistol handle Green Gas, and which don't. The usual logic is TM pistols with big cylinders to give a harder kick on 134 (XDM, Deagle, 5-7, etc) aren't likely to handle GG well due to the increased volume of gas going into the blowback cycle. Others with smaller cylinders tend to be okay, unless you use them in the height of summer or with exceptionally high pressure gases. Using GG in a TM pistol is a calculated risk which many of us gladly take; If the evidence available suggests the model you own is likely to handle it (Such as a 1911 or Hicapa), you'll reap the benefits of a quicker cycle and better performance. However, if it breaks, you'll be paying for the repairs.

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2 different retailers (including FS)

 

Description

1.

Marui MK23 non blow back pistol

Supplied with case, LAM unit and silencer.

Amazingly quiet gas pistol when silencer fitted.

approx 320fps using American Eagle gas

Marui make the best quality and relaible gas pistols on the Market, approx fps 260 on cybergun gas , spring, summer, autumn.

2.

Widely employed by US Military Special Force division. Socom Mk23 is a powerful airsoft gun and well built. Taking HFC22 gas and achieving 330fps out of the box. "

Gas Injected Pistol with Semi-Automatic Shooting Mode

Innovative Hop-Up Thumb Dial located inside the gun (can see after dissemble the slide)

Ready for Green Gas (HFC22), achieving 330 FPS of muzzle velocity (Power)

So is it 260 fps? 320Fps? 330Fps? or 345 fps like Phubar's? Is it green? ExtremeBB?American eagle? HFC22?

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What's your point? Are you doubting the fps? I'm sorry but it's already been stated several times it's not fire-supports fault your gun has fault. While it is an unlucky thing to happen it is down to you. If you live in a warmer climate running a high pressure gas will cause problems surely? It is common sense.

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Thank you, Hwagan. I'll add a few things on the side though:

 

@ Phubar: I see in your "loadout" above you have a TM Mk23 clocking 345 Fps, what type of gas do you use to attain this velocity may I ask?

 

Green gas and an extended VSR-10 6.04mm diameter barrel hidden inside the silencer. The longer the barrel, the higher the fps for the gas powered firearm (without the need for any modification to the magazine or type of gas used). The values you read on a chronometer vary according to the temperature and atmospheric pressure in which the pistol is used, so there will always be variances to the standard stated by the manufacturer. But this is not the point of the arguement.

 

As Sam mentioned above, it is a NBB (the gas feeds straight through behind the pellet only, no cylinder is fitted inside the slide) therefore there are less moving parts and less of a chance for problems to arise. I check into the theory behind what I plan on doing; there is a large sticky thread within the sniping haven centered upon sniping pistols and I took the knowledge and modified my own pistol to conform to the limits of my site, which are well within the structural integrity limits of the pistol. If something goes wrong I am fully prepared to pay for the repairs personally and not request the retailer do so.

 

My point is not a personal one, which I believe you are under the impression that I am making. Simply, I am pointing out that from a legal point of view the onus is on you, the consumer, to gather the knowledge on how to use your purchase correctly. Firesupport do provide this info in their warranty and that is sufficient for the laws of the land. This forum also contains a wealth of knowledge from people better in the know than I, hence why I consulted it. If you wish to purchase something, not read the instructions in the box or the warnings on the website available prior and post purchase, then the fault lies with you.

Edited by Phubar
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