spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Evening all! Some may remember I had this vague idea many years ago, but unfortunately given that my base gun was a piece of junk top M60 that broke before it even showed up, the project never got off the ground. Well, I'm now the proud owner of two Inokatsu support guns, and I've decided that lugging 10kg+ of aeg around isn't impractical enough so I've decided to resurrect my death machine project. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a 'death machine' is this: Originally built by the mad scientists at China Lake in the vietnam war for the Seals, the idea was to provide a machine gunner with sustained, extensive fire without frequent reloads. However, it was never widely adopted as it was extremely heavy and impractical for use in the hot jungles. This idea has seen resurgence in recent years in Afghanistan however, in part due to some American soldiers having a few beers and watching predator and knocking up their own version of the M134 gunner Blaine's feed system in their motor pool. This was then adopted by Tyr Tactical and other manufacturers and has seen the system out on the field in a few places. As for my project, I'm basing my inspiration off the FOB ghetto-mod look, ie THIS: I will also be including elements of Blaine's system from predator: And the smart gunners from Aliens: I will be using the following components: - Tactical Tailor padded MALICE frame in black - Black MG sling, cut into two pieces. - Stainless steel D rings x2 - Military heavy duty carabeener. - Stainless steel buckles. - 50 rounds of inert 7.62 linked ammunition. - 3 hydration tube covers. - cable ties. - 2 24-inch continuous-length extension springs, 7.94mm width. - Stereo wire. - Modified Inokatsu Box mag feed system. - .50 calibre ammunition tin. - 2x Ratchett straps. - Associated craft bits- tupperware plastic, heavy foam, polyproplene webbing. Plans and progress report to follow. Link to post Share on other sites
Avenger96 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Very, very nice. How are you going to feed rounds to it? Link to post Share on other sites
Horsem4n Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 id say do something akin to killbuckets feed rig. Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Now, my airsoft death machine will be designed to be compatible with both my Inok Mk43 M60, and my Inok M240. Both share a similar feed system, through a section of 7.94mm continuous length tension spring. The ammo hopper will be in the top of the tin on my back lashed to the frame, which will feed automatically when firing through a 48-inch feed tube masked by a long belt of 7.62 rounds. I estimate the hopper will carry approximately 10,000 rounds. I don't 'spray and pray' believe it or not- this won't be too easy to just keep dumping ammo in the top, I intend to use it to cut out the cumbersome reload process in long games, improve manouvrability of the support guns (yes, really!), and make something a bit different and a bit more aesthetically pleasing to me than a big fat cardboard box on the side. Rest assured, this isn't being made so I can hose everybody down. When support gunning my priority is suppression anyway, so half the rounds won't even be hitting anyone. Total weight of the rig should be no more than 4kgs maximum fully loaded, which is actually lighter than the rig I run currently, and all the weight will be spread over my shoulders and trunk, which is where I'm strongest, and should absorb a lot of the weight of my gun as well. 1st up: The sling design. This is essentially an improved, integrated version of the system Jesse Ventura designed for his M134 in Predator. He used a set of LC2/Alice suspenders, hung around his neck. Being that I’m not Jesse Ventura and that if I hung this round my neck all day I’d probably crack a vertebrae, I’ll be making the sling a part of the pack itself to spread weight. Taking the backpack I've got on the way, I'm going to cut a black issue MG sling I own in half, and securely stitch/hot glue/rivet the two padded ends of the sling into the shoulder straps of the rig, and add a sternum strap. These attachment points wil bear most of the weight of the gun, and will balance the can on the back. Those two slings will then buckle into a central stainless steel heavy-duty D ring, from which I will hang a carabeener. Next, on the gun itself I will run a length of polyproplene black webbing from the two sling loops, buckled securely with stainless steel sliders at both ends, and in the middle on the point of balance I will add a second of the heavy-duty D rings. This will then hook the gun into the carabeener, hanging on the point of balance as a pivot. When everything’s up and running, I should then be able to use the rig to transfer most of the weight to my shoulders and core, and use my arms to manipulate and aim the gun. This should also still allow me to go prone with the weapon, shoulder it and use it however I normally do. 2nd up: The feed tube assembly. The feed tube for the inokatsu support guns is a 7.94 outer diameter continuous-length extension spring. Now, I could only find a 24” one of those, the longest available apparently, so I bought two to get me to the length I needed. I will need to connect these. However, the spring provides a reliability that PVC tubing will not provide- pvc tubing kinks, contorts and can cause jamming over time in many different ways; the spring however is cleaner, easier to maintain, tougher, and retains its shape. Seriously, you can run bbs through these babies at near to 180 degrees without a single jam. Providing I can link the two springs, running bbs through it will just be a matter of putting a powerful enough motor behind it. More on that later. I will be running a length of stereo wire back from the auto feeder connection point on the main gun to the main feeding mechanism in the pack. This will hopefully not cause any kind of resistance problems, as it’s only meant to start the autowinding mag; the winding mechanism will have its own power source separate to the battery powering the aeg itself. The feed tube and wiring will run through three cordura hydration tube covers stitched together to protect them and keep from dust and *suitcase* getting into the feed tube (Also to keep things tidy and out of sight). This tube setup will then be attached via cable ties or other methods to a long belt of 7.62 inert rounds which will be locked into the appropriate place on the support gun and run back into the ammunition crate on my back. This will both protect the feed tube from damage, and prevent kinks- the bend of the belt should ensure an easy continuous feed. Down the line I will be looking at a way to build a ‘feed chute’ of the kind used by helicopter gunners that is seen on the real death machines; unfortunately this stuff is rare as hell and seriously expensive so it’s not going to happen in the short term. 3rd up: The backpack itself. Pretty damn simple externally. I’ll be using a .50 calibre US issue ammunition tin, with a small rectangular segment cut out on the left upper side to fashion a feed chute from (which will be covered by a pantac m60 pouch elasticated top to prevent grit getting in and bbs getting out around the inert rounds and feed tube). This tin will then be strapped via two or three ratchet straps to the top or bottom of the lightweight tactical tailor malice frame (probably the bottom despite the diagram and reference picture). About half of the frame will then be clear for mounting additional kit for longer games/mission specific items such as hydration, food, etc. I’d forsee no issues with mounting my tent, sleeping kit and everything I’d need for a 24 op out in the woods on this thing, there’s going to be a fair amount of space. Inside the tin, it will essentially be an enlarged version of the inokatsu box mag system. The feed mech itself is a motor driving a modified high cap VN m16 magazine. This is a reliable setup, and never misses a beat when cleaned and lubed in my Mk43 to date. I will build this system into a larger hopper with a velcro’d lid that will sit in the top of the ammunition tin. The tin will be lined with thick foam to prevent ammo rattle and to cushion the internals against any external impact. The hopper, feed mech and the battery I intend to connect to the feed mech to power it will all be removable in one go. There will be space in this insert for basic maintenance kit- allen keys, utility knife, screwdriver, etc, so should something jam the feed mech I can get it all out in one go, quickly access the mechanism and perform battlefield repairs pretty quickly. The bottom half of the ammunition tin will be ‘dead space’. I could either use this to store more kit (bit pointless as the frame itself provides much more storage space and doesn’t compromise on accessability) but I will more likely be cutting out segments of the lower and wrapping it in a lighter covering and then tape to save weight without compromising integrity of the tin. 4th up: The guns themselves. I will be using the M240 hip-fired and braced into the sling while moving around- it’s the RWC custom steel version so I’m afraid I wont be doing much firing from the shoulder! To this end I will be mounting a VFG on the side rail horizontally so I can easily traverse it, ala the Smart Gun from Aliens. I will also be attaching a powerful laser to assist my hip-fire accuracy, and a big eff-off torch for night games. I won’t be bothering with an optic for it. For the Mk43, I shoulder fire that all the time so that will be business as usual- VFG vertically halfway down the railed handguard, Eotech, and PEQ. Well, there you have it. The plan! Obstacles. As of now, aside from the fact I a. can’t sew for *suitcase* for the sling attachments to the shoulders and b. I haven’t got a grinder capable of cutting out the feed chute from the tin just yet, there are 3 main obstacles I must overcome. 1) Joining the feed tube. The two lengths of spring need to be joined smoothly with no internal kinks. Superglue won’t work. I intend to try a 7.9mm internal diameter silicone rubber tube around the two sides, with some kind of adhesive (jb weld?) forming a secure bond. This will hopefully do the job but would welcome suggestions. 2) Finding out of the motor is strong enough, and if not getting a new one. This is the one I have now: Now, it’s a pretty chunky motor and might well do the job. There should be a maximum of 40-50g of bbs in the feed tube at any one time, which isn’t a huge amount of weight, but this will be something I’ll be testing in prototype stage. 3) Sorting the wiring. I intend to attach a battery in parallel to the feed mech in the pack. Hopefully this will power the feed mechanism without draining the battery in the gun itself. The wiring running through the feed tube will then only trigger the auto winder, not power it. I am not too hot on electronics so have no idea if this will work the way I want it to, but fingers crossed. Future developments. If I get the system running smoothly, down the line I will probably make an M249 adaptor for a ‘light’ version. For *suitcases* and giggles I’d also like to mod a hip-fired replica .50. I also want to make/mod a helicopter-style feed chute to properly replicate the real deals. Lastly, I may well transfer the internals into a real-steel gunner pack or pouch for lighter weight use. There are some systems that don’t have the $4000 price tag of the Tyr Tactical kit! Thanks for reading. I’d welcome any opinions, suggestions or possible improvements, especially advice on the wiring, motor and spring joint issues. Dave Edit: Cheers guys, Horseman I'm not familiar with Killbucket's stuff apart from a couple of pics, how does he run his feed rig? Link to post Share on other sites
PianoBlack Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 1) Joining the feed tube. The two lengths of spring need to be joined smoothly with no internal kinks. Superglue won’t work. I intend to try a 7.9mm internal diameter silicone rubber tube around the two sides, with some kind of adhesive (jb weld?) forming a secure bond. This will hopefully do the job but would welcome suggestions. Examining my Inokatsu Mk43, I noticed that the internal feed tube threads into a piece of metal that the magazine feed tube clamps onto. Would it be feasible to see if you could find a metal tube with the same threading on the inside that you could use as a coupler between the 24 in lengths? Cheers, Piano Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 That would be a much more ideal solution than the rubber tubing, but unfortunately I have no idea where I would get such a thing. Haven't found anything on line with similar dimensions. Link to post Share on other sites
PianoBlack Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 If you could determine the TPI of the Inokatsu piece, you might be able to tap a length of metal tubing to make a coupling. I am going to see if I can find a threaded sleeve that might work here in the states. Cheers, Piano Link to post Share on other sites
Geri Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 It's simpy awsome, scarry and give me an "I-want-a-system-like-this" feeling at the same time, I'v never liked the "non milsim" ideas but it changed my mind... Link to post Share on other sites
shmook Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 For the feed chute, kill bucket has made them. Check out his site (I can't link as I'm on my phone...) Edit, I can link! here For a grinder, you can get them cheap from lidl sometimes. If not, eBay. They are heap Chinese rubbish, but will do for what you want. If you're struggling, post it to me and I will cut it for you! Edit, something like this. Go for 1mm cutting discs for it. As for joining the springs, test the JB weld on the silicone first, the solvent may eat it. Also, you may be aware of this, but don't let it run throught o the inside of the springs where it will cause jams! It's a great project and well thought out, good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
Vice Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Dave, when you mentioned this project to me I was dubious. But now I see you have it planned out quite well I think its doable. I'll try figure a wiring solution for you, a couple of fets wired to the trigger mech should do. Hopefully having a control wire instead of a power wire running along the ammo feed will reduce the wiring size and any losses/resistance. I'm sure my dad will have the equipment to do the cutting for the tin. I know we have a big set of taps/dies to try and make the spring connector. You know where I live so we should be able to make this happen Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Sam you're a gent mate, as obstacles go I don't think the 3 I have are going to be too tricky. .50 cal can is on the way as we speak now Edit: Schmook thanks very much for that. I didn't really understand Killbucket's CAD designs tbh but I'll have a read and try and puzzle them out! Piano what's the TPI? I'm not up on engineering terminology I'm afraid! The pack's arrived today, and I'm pleased to say is both VERY lightweight and strong, but also has attachment points at the base I can definitely use to strap the ammo tin onto. I've done some thinking and I think that I will need to create some interesting angles on the hopper inside if I want to ensure continuous feeding while both prone and upright. Link to post Share on other sites
U-TAG Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 You've neglected one important thing in this design, which hat you'll be wearing? Blaine's hat or the Beanie sported by th SF bloke? Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 May have got an australian bush hat on my watch list on ebay Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 This is frickin awesome. Where do you play? I must see this in action. Link to post Share on other sites
ariamark Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 dude this looks amazing hope it goes well Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Cheers guys! This will be used mostly at games in the Yorkshire area but may well get fielded further afield depending on site rules (not sure a 10k support gun will be welcome at the milsims I usually play lol) May well make a nam version too if I can save enough for a nam 60!! Link to post Share on other sites
Wild_XIII Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Dave, if you're ever down this way again feel free to bring it to my local. No disrespect to the site, but there are many, many hi caps there! Link to post Share on other sites
U-TAG Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'd drive to yorkshire to see this! Link to post Share on other sites
Tinkerton Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Yorkshire, eh? Nice to see a fellow support gunner! What sites you usually play at? been up here a while but not been able to decide on a site to try first. Link to post Share on other sites
PianoBlack Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 TPI is threads per inch. If you have a hardware store handy, you could bring the spring in and see which nut screws onto it best. I'm guessing a m8 would be cloae. I have a couple of metric and standard screw checkers in storage I can drag put to measure the tube with. Cheers, Piano Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Might drive on over to B&Q and have a look about Link to post Share on other sites
Vice Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Dave - get the external diameter and threads per inch/cm and I will take a look what I have here. Link to post Share on other sites
Dagonet Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Pure win next best thing would be "nuke it from orbit, only way to be sure" I first thought you where going to dual mount the M60s, love the pictures and research element, and the added bonus of being in North Lincs i might even see the finished article in play somewhere Oh and remember while building, when you slip with the tools and cut yourself " i ain't got time to bleed" Good luck, looking forward to updates. Link to post Share on other sites
U-TAG Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Dual mounted M60's that sounds dirty but in a good way. Link to post Share on other sites
Dagonet Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Most likely says more about me, apart from the weight issue, dualie mounted M60's fed from a back pack ammo carrier, is very very dirty Link to post Share on other sites
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