Religion

[Sledge]

So you don't believe in the complete and utter tolerance of other beliefs. You believe in tolereance as long as it doesn't bother you.

 

[rizzo]

That makes no sense. Is free will more important than human survival? That logic implies that we AREN'T better than animals, because if god made us to be better than animals, wouldn't we be also more sancrosant? Apparently not, since we're allowed to run free and savage, kind of like, well, ANIMALS.

 

In my opinion yes, and Sledge puts it very well. Would you rather be alive but unable to do what you want to do? Think what you want to think? I'd rather not exist at all frankly.

 

Free will, and the knowledge that we are mortal is what separates us from animals. You say it yourself, 'we're allowed' to do what we want. If we want to be like animals, fine. If we want to hurt someone, fine. If we want to lead a good life, fine. An animal is an animal. It has NO concept of good and evil. We, as humans, have a choice between the two. Besides, even if animals did have free choice, it doens't matter, the theory still stands, that God gave free will and choice to all creatures, because it is the best of all possible worlds.

 

And how do we know animals don't have free will or concious thought? That's full of holes... Is the life of a mouse pre-determined? Can it not conciously decide, based on what it's learned, to avoid a mousetrap?

I don't know- animals may have concious thought, buts thats another debate. The point we're discussing here is whether a benevolant, omnipotent God can exist when there is evil and suffering in the world.

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[PlasticMag]

Well, as neither of us can convince the others, then hey, we agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.

[Sledge]

Not sure you've explained your point well enough for me to agree or disagree with it, PlasticMag.

 

[Joss]

So you don't believe in the complete and utter tolerance of other beliefs. You believe in tolereance as long as it doesn't bother you.

 

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Thats not what i said sledge.

What I meant is that any religion or belief is okay so long as it doesn't incite violence or discrimination towards other people. If it does, then its not a real religion anyway.

[Sledge]

Ah, so a religion is fine as long as you say so. I can't see how anyone ever accuses Christians of being intolerant.

 

[Ubar]

the only side of religion i support was the crusades. that was pretty bad *albatross*

[Joss]

Cmon sledge, thats not what im trying to say.

What i mean is that violence against other people in the name of religion is wrong.

[Sledge]

According to you. Not according to some other people's religions. The problem here is the use of the word "tolerant." Most people aren't tolerant, but like to describe themselves as such because it's perceived as a virtue. It isn't. To be tolerant of everything is as much a dumb idea as being intolerant of everything. I can be very intolerant. I am intolerant of opinions that cannot withstand logical debate, for instance. Instead, I like to be open-minded. I listen to someone's opinion. I am only intolerant of it if I can show where it is wrong, and the person continues to espouse their opinion.

 

Do you perhaps mean you are open-minded?

 

[Joss]

Ok sledge, you win mate.

Perhaps my first post was a little misleading and badly phrased.

Open minded is what im trying to get at.

 

You get +1 reputation for putting up a good argument.

[Lance Jackass]

In my opinion there is no religion, there is no reason, no meaning for it all. Sh!t just happens.

[joeking27]

Religion? Nah.

 

Faith however...

[PlasticMag]

Sledge, my basic point is that god can't exist as a benevolent being with free will still allowed - a classic paradox, really. Rizzo and Jay Bee counter with god loves everyone but would rather we twiddle away in a prison of our own making, which I don't agree with.

 

That's all it really is.

[rizzo]

No no no no no no no no no, you completely misunderstand.

 

 

God IS benevolant BECAUSE he allows us free choice.

 

If God stopped evil acts we would have no free choice and that would not be benevolant.

 

It would not be benevolant because-

- We would not have choice

-We would be slaves to God

 

Capisce?

[joeking27]

Sledge, my basic point is that god can't exist as a benevolent being with free will still allowed - a classic paradox, really. Rizzo and Jay Bee counter with god loves everyone but would rather we twiddle away in a prison of our own making, which I don't agree with.

 

That's all it really is.

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Why can't God be benevolent and us have free will?

 

If you had created everything, would you want everyone to blindly follow you, or for everyone who does make the choice to follow, to have made that choice freely?

 

Classic Paradox? Not really. In fact I'm fairly sure that that particular logical inference is invalid.

[jay bee]

Being a CofE christian i believe in complete and utter tolerance for all religions and beliefs. The only exceptions would be devil worship (practised by the depressed or just plain weird) and any belief that actively involves causing harm to another human being (such as those nutjobs who were allegedly importing children for ritual sacrifice).

      However, i think that sometimes religion is taken too far and that some people hide behind religion so that they can carry out violent and evil acts (ie; suicide bombers and the 9/11 terrorists), in the end they only alienate the non-violent followers of their religion.

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Ive actually suprisingly had quite a lot of probs with CofE christians, especially when I was at a CofE school.

 

The thing with jihad and that is that the 9/11 bombers directly violated the rules of jihad. Now the rules of holy war in islam are clearly stated, its not like the rules of holy war in the bible which are up for interpretation, there are clearly defined rules of jihad in the koran. There is no way 'extremists' could misinterpret it, its just an excuse being used for them to wage war on america for helping out the israelis. Thats my opinion anyway...

[joeking27]

Ah yes. Religion causes conflict. Probably yes, as belief can be pretty fundamental. But religion gets blamed for a lot more than it should do.

 

But the Troubles in Ireland weren't really caused by religion. It was where you came from. Most the British "invaders" were protty. most of the locals were catty. Just a convient label.

 

September 11th, and the subsequent invasions of the Middle East. If the Muslims had a real problem with religion surely the Vatican is a better target? And the invasion, "You shall not kill" is pretty explicit to me.

 

Vietnam, Korea, WW1, WW2, Falklands. Definate all religion's fault.

[jay bee]

Sledge, my basic point is that god can't exist as a benevolent being with free will still allowed - a classic paradox, really. Rizzo and Jay Bee counter with god loves everyone but would rather we twiddle away in a prison of our own making, which I don't agree with.

 

That's all it really is.

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I would just like to point out I am argueing why the theory works, I dont necessarily believe it myself.

Ah, so a religion is fine as long as you say so. I can't see how anyone ever accuses Christians of being intolerant.

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Oi careful, be nice, this topic will have to be deleted if people get nasty, tis rather techy, im treading a fine line starting this(though it seems youve sorted it out further down the line, im just saying be careful pweese).

 

I agree with Joss, I have no problem with people of another religion, infact I encourage people to explore lots of religious avenues. However I dont approve of religions which promote or involve any form of hurting other people, eg traditional satanists (some modern satanists dont actually set out to hurt other people but rather just cant be bothered to walk on eggshells for god).

[Sora000]

Gay marriage has every right be be allowed. If you say it doesn't u ARE a bad person. Don't start flaming me now just keep reading.

 

(I am talking American not Britain when i say this) the Supreme Court says that church and state have to be separate. There for u can't say gay marriage shouldn't be legally allowed because of what god says. After that argument there is no valid argument to stop gays from marrying.

Them being married doesn't effect u so leave them be. The fact that u think u have the right to voice(not believe but voice) that someone can't do something (that doesn't hurt anyone) because u think it is wrong or think it is gross makes me so incedably mad................there are no words.

 

 

I would just like to say, b4 anyone says something else, i have no problems with any religion execpt organized religion.

[rizzo]

Gay marriage has every right be be allowed.  If you say it doesn't u ARE a bad person.  Don't start flaming me now just keep reading.

 

(I am talking American not Britain when i say this) the Supreme Court says that church and state have to be separate.  There for u can't say gay marriage shouldn't be legally allowed because of what god says.  After that argument there is no valid argument to stop gays from marrying. 

Them being married doesn't effect u so leave them be.  The fact that u think u have the right to voice(not believe but voice) that someone can't do something (that doesn't hurt anyone) because u think it is wrong or think it is gross makes me so incedably mad................there are no words.

I would just like to say, b4 anyone says something else, i have no problems with any religion execpt organized religion.

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I agree, however, the church/ religion can, and has every right to, not allow homosexual marriage in their churches. But as you said, the consitution separates church and country in America, so gay marriage should be allowed technically...

[jay bee]

Gay marriage has every right be be allowed.  If you say it doesn't u ARE a bad person.  Don't start flaming me now just keep reading.

 

(I am talking American not Britain when i say this) the Supreme Court says that church and state have to be separate.  There for u can't say gay marriage shouldn't be legally allowed because of what god says.  After that argument there is no valid argument to stop gays from marrying. 

Them being married doesn't effect u so leave them be.  The fact that u think u have the right to voice(not believe but voice) that someone can't do something (that doesn't hurt anyone) because u think it is wrong or think it is gross makes me so incedably mad................there are no words.

I would just like to say, b4 anyone says something else, i have no problems with any religion execpt organized religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you, but I think that churches have the right to turn down gay marriage in their own specific church, but it should technically be allowed. I do think that its fair enough for someone to be against gay marriage, though I dont understand why christians should be when afterall the new testament had a bit on how u can be gay, it was just cut out by martin luther

[Dr Pepper]

I'm CofE and went to catholic schools for 8 years. I thought my belief in Christianity was quite sound until i read The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. This book really opened my eyes and made me think a lot about the Bible, the Church and God. So much so, that I'm not even sure what to believe any more, if anything at all

[joeking27]

Gay marriage has every right be be allowed.  If you say it doesn't u ARE a bad person.  Don't start flaming me now just keep reading.

 

(I am talking American not Britain when i say this) the Supreme Court says that church and state have to be separate.  There for u can't say gay marriage shouldn't be legally allowed because of what god says.  After that argument there is no valid argument to stop gays from marrying. 

Them being married doesn't effect u so leave them be.  The fact that u think u have the right to voice(not believe but voice) that someone can't do something (that doesn't hurt anyone) because u think it is wrong or think it is gross makes me so incedably mad................there are no words.

I would just like to say, b4 anyone says something else, i have no problems with any religion execpt organized religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm a bad person? I take exception to that.

 

Valid Argument, its in the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. I'd call that valid. And it doesn't hurt anyone. Except God. Going against his word probably isn't going to please Him.

 

Your next arguement is it doesn't affect me, so I'll leave it alone. That really isn't a very worthwhile thing to say. Your next door neighbour is about to kill his family, and then himself. Only you can stop it, but doing nothing will not affect you. By what you say, those people should be comdemed to death.

 

You say organised religion. What does that mean? Surely any religion is going to have something to say, which would be organised. So it sounds to me that you have a problem with any religion.

[Joss]

yep, orgainised religion is a very wide ranging phrase.

[Ghost_Rider]

Valid Argument, its in the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. I'd call that valid. And it doesn't hurt anyone. Except God. Going against his word probably isn't going to please Him.

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I'm sorry mate, I've got to take issue with that.

 

No-one can say that any holy book is the word of god. It is, at best, the word of god as interpreted by the person who wrote it. At worst, it's an interpretation that has been translated two or three times.

 

Try putting an English phrase into a translation program like the babel fish, then translate it into Spanish. Translate the Spanish into German, and the German back into English. Funnily enough, the phrase is VERY different to the one you started with.

 

In addition, there are MANY things in the bible that are no longer relevent to todays society.

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

 

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

 

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

 

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

 

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

 

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

 

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

 

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

I take issue to Sora000 as well however. There are spacktards in EVERY religeion who will use their religeon as a stick to beat other people with, to put forward bigotry under the guise of instructions from a higher being.

 

Sledge; some things are just plain wrong, regardless of your religeous bent. Violent action towards another person on the grounds of prejudice is one of these.

 

Tolerance has nothing to do with it; if a religeon espouses violence or removal of basic human rights as part of its dogma, then something should be done to prevent such actions.