You know what really grinds my gears?

[hsimoorb]

Fine then. The sights on the Kalashnikov suck. They were manufactured and designed poorly. I don't know anyone who can use them quickly and effectively. Both the notch and post need to be bigger.

 

I can use AK sights just fine. Honestly I don't know what the heck everyone thinks is wrong with them, it's not like any other form of iron sight is drasticaly better.

 

Except for catching hot brass with their teeth?

 

You read what he said right? Catching hot brass isn't a big problem with the AKs.

 

Why a longer barrel? Because a longer barrel gives the weapon longer range and greater accuracy. The L85A1/A2 both have full length 20" barrels in them. The Kalashnikov has, I believe, an 18" barrel.

 

Both the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 were designed for 16 inch barrels. Making a longer barreled AK in the same caliber would not do a whole lot for accuracy. Remember how .308 winchester dosen't gain significant amounts of muzzle velocity/accuracy from 20 inch barrels as opposed to 18 inchers? Same concept. If you want an accurate long range "AK" get an SVD.

 

So you're happy using Sten Mk IIs instead of MP5s? SMLEs instead of SA80s?

 

If you want something that just gets the job done, you can go back to throwing spears. If you want something that gets the job done while being more comfortable for the operator, well, that's what firearms with rifled barrels firing self-contained charges were invented for. And we have a whole field dedicated to making things comfortable: it's called ERGONOMICS. Something the Kalashnikov doesn't have.

 

Again, the ergenomics of the pistol grip are 99%. Who's reay gonna *badgeress* about the tiny extra bit of comfortability?

 

The bayonet lugs on the Kalashnikov rifle fit Russian bayonets. Not American bayonets. Do some research on the Kalashnikov next time, why doncha?

 

How is that a disadvantage? I can see how that would discourage american users from picking up the AK, but in the larger picture, there is no reason to say that taking an american Bayonet is better that taking a russian one. The russian probaly intentionaly designed thier different than our so they couldn't be used as "battlefield pickups". Same concept around using a microcaliber different enough from the 5.56 to discourage ammo interchangeability....5.45

 

None of which accept the .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or the .30-06.

 

Again, in the larger picture, this isn't a disadvantage. 7.62x54 is a fine caliber.

 

I wouldn't say that all would be righted. But they'll probably sell a lot more rifles than they do now. (Which is, to say, not a whole lot.)

 

ummm....AFAIK russia still sells AKs by the boatload. Not to mention AKs are the most distributed assault rifle in the world. The only reason the US sells the M16 to anyone is because we sell the near protectorates, who can only use thier US military subsidies on US made equipment.

[PariahWolf]

<various non-sensical BS>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<cut>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Seems to be a perfectly fine rifle to me, it can fire underwater, it's the most copied design in the world and it seems to have killed a fair few Americans recently.

 

The design is such that anybody can use it, including peasants. Start adding to it and you reduce it's reliability.

 

Also I have no problems with AK sights. Loads of weapons eject brass out the left and cause problems for lefties, the answer is to stop being a retard and shoot right handed.

 

Ergonomics? Bringing ergonomics into an argument is completely retarded, I find the AK pistol grip 100% nicer than the crappy standard one on m4/m16s. It's all a metter of opinion.

 

Caliber and Bayonet lugs? Lets think carefully about this, where is the AK mostly used? Closer to Russia than Amercian I would say. So it only makes sense that they use Russian calibers and bayonet lugs.

[sekiryu]

SVD exists, and is a variant.

 

The Dragunov SVD is not a variant of the AK. It wasn't even designed by Kalashnikov: it was designed by Dragunov (hence the name)

 

The main problem with the AK is that the barrel wobbles horrendously when fired, making shots inaccurate.

 

And what's all this talk about calibre? The Russians use 5.56x45 now...

[nsitgahltker]

lol

You know what grinds my gears? People who can't spell...

 

o.0

wait... that had nothing to do with airsoft...

 

Oh. Right. People who substitute "mag" with "clip". "OMGZ HE DROPPED HIS CLIP!"

[Tinkerton]

People like you grind my gears. Why?

 

The Kalashnikov is a flawed design, simple as. But you're defending the design as though it were Holy Writ. Well. If you had a religion, anyway.

No. I'm defending the design becuase, surprise surprise, it's not flawed It provides reasonably accurate, powerful automatic fire up to and over 300 meters. exactly what it was designed for.

 

Why? becuase you're used to it on your armalite and like not having to charge the weapon, ergo making sure that you KNOW it's loaded and good to go?

 

So that when you're firing semi-auto, the first hint that you need to slap a fresh mag in doesn't go like this: *CLICK!* As the hammer falls on an empty chamber. Having a bolt that holds itself open is a much better (and faster, safer) indicator that you're out of ammo than having to manually check the bolt. If the bolt holds itself open, you'll see out of the corner of your eye that the charging handle is not forward and know that your rifle has either jammed or you need a new magazine.

It's good habit and practice to charge a weapon when you insert a new mag. If the bolt holds open when its raining, during a dust storm, in the snow, etc etc, who's to say that various gunk wont get in there and cause it to jam?

 

Notch and post sights are perfectly fine, thankyouvery much. Shotguns have them, Pistols have them, some, if not most SMG's have them. why are 'ghost rings' or 'peep sights' so much better?

 

Fine then. The sights on the Kalashnikov suck. They were manufactured and designed poorly. I don't know anyone who can use them quickly and effectively. Both the notch and post need to be bigger.

In your opinion Who are you to say how the AK sights were made? who are you to say how much money was spent on them? you can only speculate and assume. The smaller the notch and the post, the more accurate the sights are.

 

As for a brass deflector, well... do you REALLY need one? people have been firing AK's both right and left handed for years without any major problem, as far as I'm aware.

 

Except for catching hot brass with their teeth?

 

Got any proof to back that up? people fire the MP5 series left handed without any major side effects, far as i know the ejection port is in the same place in relation to everything else.

 

 

As for the longer barreled version... Why? the brits are fine with just the L85 A2... and the carbine? well.. again, the brits are fine, and so, it appears, are the russians... Why d'you want so much from such an already fine weapon?

 

Why a longer barrel? Because a longer barrel gives the weapon longer range and greater accuracy. The L85A1/A2 both have full length 20" barrels in them. The Kalashnikov has, I believe, an 18" barrel.

The AK-47/M actually has a 16" barrel. But, it still has enough accuracy to hit a target out to 300 meters. Guess where most of the fighting is going on today? Cities. Built up areas. Even if the AK was accurate to 1000m, would you ever really use it?

 

And the people who have the resources to modify the Kalashnikov design and choose to adopt it as their service rifle do so. It's not a 'fine design' if everyone is changing it towards what I described, now is it?

Each country has their own idiosyncracies, and so each country will modify any weapon they use. The Canadians use different style magazines in their Diemaco (Colt Canada, now) rifles, do they not?

The Chinese add their own bayonet and markings to the old Type 56, do they not?

 

Nations that have their own, domestically produced, modified Kalashnikovs: Israel, Switzerland, PRChina, South Africa, Finland. They all have the resources to modify the design and they have. And most, if not all, have been modified to the point where they would make an acceptable service weapon for a professional army.

Various russian military units, including the VDV and various 'special forces' units still use the AKM, even though there are newer, 'better' versions of the AK available. Are you implying that the Russian military is not professional?

 

As for the pistol grip... well... I dont like G36 pistol grips.. or Armalites... hell, im not even that love struck on the AK one. but it does the job it's meant to. that's all you can ask of it, really.

 

So you're happy using Sten Mk IIs instead of MP5s? SMLEs instead of SA80s?

Yes. i like 'shotgun style' stocks. And i would rather use them instead of the newer 'pistol grip' style, truth be told.

 

If you want something that just gets the job done, you can go back to throwing spears. If you want something that gets the job done while being more comfortable for the operator, well, that's what firearms with rifled barrels firing self-contained charges were invented for. And we have a whole field dedicated to making things comfortable: it's called ERGONOMICS. Something the Kalashnikov doesn't have.

 

I know what Ergonomics are, and for your information, its not making things comfortable, its the way an item or items interact with the human body. Ergonomics is everything from table heights to aerosol cans. Throwing spears got the job done, yes, but " firearms with rifled barrels firing self-contained charges" do the job better. would you rather use a blunt knife or a sharp one?

 

Err.... why? its not ambi on the Type 89. its not ambi on the L85A2... why should the AK be any different?

 

Because the Type 89 was designed for Japanese shooters and the SA80 was so full of small design flaws for its first decade and a half that it really isn't surprising that there would be larger design defects, like poorly designed and laid-out controls, as well as the complete inability to fire the weapon left-handed.

Becuase the L85A2 is a bullpup, naturally more difficult for left handed shooters. And just becuase the type 89 is Japanese doesnt change anything. i could name vast amounts of weapons with a non-ambi bolt. for example, the SIG 55x series, the M60, the M249, the M40, the AUG, the FN FAL, the FN SCAR, the G3 series, the MP5 series, the GALIL series, the M14...

 

...Again, why? are people really so lazy that they not only want a bolt release, they want to be able to do it with whatever hand they want? Pistols get by with a non-ambi bolt release... some SMGs (im thinking TMP here) do as well.

 

Because if you're going to allow lefties to shoot the damned gun, you might as well let them reload it, too.

You're assuming that 1: the 'new improved' Kalashnikov HAS a bolt release, and 2: that it's 'lefty compatible', with ambi safetys, fire selectors and mag releases.

 

...No thanks. i like it the way it is. Otherwise, you'd lose the zero each time you stripped it down/cleaned it/un jammed it/ etc.

 

Tell that to the Chinese, Finns, Israelis, Swiss, and South Africans. I'm sure they'd love to be informed that their rifles lose their zero everytime the fieldstrip their rifles. And then they'd laugh and tell you that they don't field strip their rifles the same way the Russians do.

See Tuulos' post above please.

 

So basically... stick an Armalite 'carry handle' on it?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a G36 carry handle or a permanently attached high scope mount, but sure.

What if someone doesn't like the scope? what if someone would rather use iron sights, or a reflex? Surely having the option to mount numerous scopes quickly and easily would be better than having one 'built in' scope which could be difficult and/or time consuming to remove?

 

AHEM. they already exist. do some research please ( www.kalinkaoptics.com www.posp.ru )

 

AHEM. I'm well aware of the scopes designed for the flawed Kalashnikov rifle. I'm talking about scopes designed for a new, improved Kalashnikov rifle.

Then they'd use the same damned scope rail, becuase its cheap to make, and easy to affix. Would you please stop calling the Kalashnikov 'flawed'? It's only 'flawed' if you expect miracles of it, which is not what it was designed for

 

...errm.. why? the AK 74 muzzle break is both of these.

 

It's neither. The AK-74 muzzlebreak reflects Russian post-World War II thinking: Automatic fire and lots of it. The muzzlebreak on the AK-74 is designed solely to reduce the recoil of the rifle when it is firing in full-automatic. It is not designed to hide the muzzle flash and reduce the likelihood of the soldier firing the weapon being spotted by the enemy.

 

If you look at the design of the AK-74 muzzlebreak, you'll note that it's design only pushes gases back (the larger opening in the break) and up and to the right (three smaller holes closer to the barrel).

Fair enough, i was wrong on this point, i'll concede that.

 

 

So... you've not heard about the RPK then? and the AKSU? foregrips are available with vert foregrips, rails etc. bipods are available, Bayonet lugs already exist on a majority of the weapons.

 

The bayonet lugs on the Kalashnikov rifle fit Russian bayonets. Not American bayonets. Do some research on the Kalashnikov next time, why doncha?

It accepts a bayonet all the same. why does it batter if its russian or american?

 

And again, the thing what you were referencing would be the improved Kalashnikov, not the original, heavily flawed design.

 

SVD exists, and is a variant. so is the Zavasta rifle (even closer to a 'normal' AK)

Iraqi style 'Tabuk' rifle has a longer barrel, making it perfect for DM work.

 

None of which accept the .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or the .30-06.

Why are these calibres so much better than 7.62x54r? becuase it's NATO approved?

 

 

So, pretty much, once you strip the thing down, and re-build it as an Armalite, you'd like it! lovely! well, i'll just send a quick email off to Izmash and Tula, telling them they're making their rifles wrong, and the world will be righted!

 

I wouldn't say that all would be righted. But they'll probably sell a lot more rifles than they do now. (Which is, to say, not a whole lot.)

Izmash have recently sold around 100,000 (one hundred thousand, just in case your innumerate) to Venezuela, so please, stop assuming nobody buys Kalasnikovs.

 

"yeah... well... i'd like it more if you changed so much it was actually a different gun. lets make it feed from STANAG mags too, oh, and change the calibre."

 

I forgot that part! Of course, the mag well will have to be redesigned, but it would stand a better chance of actually selling, then, wouldn't it?

Why should the mag be re-designed? it does the job well. Who cares if it doesnt fit in STANAG pouches? neither do G36 mags. See above point on selling.

 

Let's be frank. Mikhail Kalashnikov knew how to design a rifle for conscripts fresh from the farm. He did not know how to design a rifle for professional soldiers and if he ever heard of 'ergonomics', it was clearly after a couple drinks too many.

Stop bashing the father of the Assualt rifle as we know it, please. The rifle IS for proffessional soldiers. look at various eastern european countries, along with Russia. look at PMC's in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The design was and is flawed. I put forth various manners with which to improve the design, to take it from a fifty-year old dinosaur, into a new century.

Sometimes dinosaurs do the job better than a hi-tech peice of machinery. face it.

 

 

"The Dragunov SVD is not a variant of the AK. It wasn't even designed by Kalashnikov: it was designed by Dragunov (hence the name)

 

The main problem with the AK is that the barrel wobbles horrendously when fired, making shots inaccurate.

 

And what's all this talk about calibre? The Russians use 5.56x45 now..."

 

1: I know that the SVD was developed by someone differenet, but its still the same style as the AK. right handed pivoting safety/selector. pivoting mag catch. right handed fixed bolt handle, removeable dust cover, same sights.. etc

 

2: ...erm... No it doesnt. not more than any Armalite series.

 

3: Not all of them. some russians still prefer 7.62x39.

[sekiryu]

And just becuase the type 89 is Japanese doesnt change anything.

 

Yes it does, because all Japanese are right handed. It is nearly impossible to write their language left handed, so they are taught to be right handed. Thus they make a right-hand only rifle.

 

The "father of the assault rifle" was the guy who made the MP/Stg 44.

[MooCow]

systema grinds my gears

[oikoik]

TM-man: You can be my Gear-grinder any time!

Systema: Bulls**t! You can be mine!

 

 

Got dammit mustang! This is Gear Grinder 117, this grease is all over me. He's got missile lock on me. Do I have permission to shed teeth?

[Samm]

Who the hell gave oik LSD?

[Tuulos]

Sekiryu, Russians do not use 5.56x45mm, Americans do. It is 5,45x39mm

 

Samm, the important question is; where can i get some too?

[hsimoorb]

Sekiryu, Russians do not use 5.56x45mm, Americans do. It is 5,45x39mm

 

Russia is currently issueing the AK-101 5.56 assault rifle.

[Tuulos]

How many Ak-101 have you seen in news? According to Modern Firearms its designed for world weapons market.

[sekiryu]

...erm... No it doesnt. not more than any Armalite series.

 

Yes it does. There was a show on the Military Channel some time ago, showing both the AK and the M16 with a high-speed camera. The M16 fired smoothly, with little barrel wobble. The AK's barrel was bouncing up and down like a twig. As the narrator put it "The AK was throwing itself around". Even the director of some firearms museum (the big guy) backed this up. I think his name was Atwater or something, can't remember.

 

Becuase the L85A2 is a bullpup, naturally more difficult for left handed shooters.

 

The L85 cannot be modified for left handed shooters, unlike the AUG or FAMAS. There are two bullpups (P90 and FN2000) which can be fired left-handed without modification.

 

Come to think of it, the Type 89 isn't completely anti-southpaw. You can get a left-handed selector switch for it, and the shell casings eject forwards (I think the round charging handle acts as a shell deflector). The only bad part is the pistol grip.

 

How many Ak-101 have you seen in news? According to Modern Firearms its designed for world weapons market.

 

Russia is now part of NATO. So they would naturally use NATO standard rounds.

[Tuulos]

Since when did that happen? And Russia is a big enough country to say "Nay to 5.56"

 

According to Nato's website, Russia is not a member country

[sekiryu]

I guess I'm wrong on that notion. Although I have seen pictures of a Russian unit fielding the AK101.

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu10.htm

M16 vs AK47 ergonomics

 

the Minute of angle of a standard issue AK-47 is 3-4 MOA, which is not very accurate.

 

The M16 came from the factory shooting with an MOA of 2 and under which allowed it to reliably hit targets up to 500 yards.

 

The "ghost ring" or aperture sights of the later M16A2 are superior to those used on most earlier assault rifles. Using an aperture rear sight, a small hole to center the front blade in, the human eye automatically centers the front sight post, making aiming faster and more consistent. The M16A2's rear sight features two aperture settings. The larger aperture enables faster sighting in poor lighting conditions. The smaller aperture permits more precise aiming for long-distance targets. The AK-47's sights are of a more traditional "open" style. The rear sight is a simple U- or V-shaped notch in which the front post is to be centered. This requires more concentration to use, as both the front and rear sight must be kept in alignment, and must be placed further away from the eye, or the same 'blurring effect' of the aperture sights will hinder performance. The M16's sight radius (the distance between the two sights) is greater, which contributes to more precise sighting.

[PariahWolf]

cut

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can people please realise that a rifle that isn't made for lefties is not a design fault.

 

In the British army you are all taught to shoot right handed. Firstly because the rifle is left handed. Secondly because the respirator is right handed, thirdly because it makes more sense to make everyone do things the same.

 

I can almost certainly gaurantee that no British service man has lost his life because he was shooting right handed.

 

Now if you don't want this to decend into another l85 argument stop using it as an example.

 

Edit: Those wiki quotes don't prove anything. Issue AK, made on the cheap. M16 could be from any number of places and probably was more expensive.

 

The guy in the last one clearly doesn't know what he is talking about either.

[Tuulos]

You take older American and ask him what he thinks about this Soviet rifle. What do you expect? Cold war anyone? "The AK has a reputation of being extremely reliable, although I never have problems with an AR, as long as it is well-maintained." Thing is, Ak has no need to be well-maintained for it to work. I could pretty much take a dump to the barrel and it would be shooting. The Ak didn't have original stock so ergonomics drop out of conversation. "I find this an uncomfortable movement to perform.

 

While the AK magazines are very stout, they must be carefully "locked" into the rifle." Mags are locked securely on place and you can't accidentally drop them. Besides, it's easy to put mags on, it's not uncomfortable and you don't have to bang your mag onto anything to make it feed properly.

 

"To charge the AK, the shooter must reach over the reciever and pull the charging handle fully to the rear." They normally do it with right hand. And it's perfect for lefties. Very easy to charge it without losing line of sight. And it looks very discomfortable when he charges the Ar Do you really aim the gun with your head so far from the rear sight? "The "sweep" of the safety is long and noisey." If you know what you are doing, ie you are not extremely stupid, it can be operated without a sound. And it isn't noisey even if you ram it normally. Besides, you can't accidentally change it's position, unlike Ar

[Kris2456]

Guys really. Who cares?

[Tuulos]

We're just grinding Sekiryu's gears We just got carried away from the "Ar it best" attitude, sorry

[oikoik]

less grinding, more sliding.

 

edited out naughty image

[Jagdraben]

In MOUT and CQB you need to be able to fire left-handed.

 

If you're right hand security in a column you need to be able to shoot left handed.

 

Generally, this need can be partially abated by having left handers pull right security. Well, OK. It isn't a need, but it's a damned good idea. You expose less of yourself and should your right hand be, for whatever reason, unable to pull the trigger on your rifle.

 

Ambidextrous rifles are natural and friendly for the following people:

-Righties;

-Lefties, and;

-Cross-eye dominant people.

 

This is why special operations groups in the UK and elsewhere have adopted G36s, Diemaco C7/8s, and other more traditional designed rifles.

 

The 5.56mm NATO round was designed specifically to be most efficient when fired from a 20-inch barrel, such as that found on the XM16E1 and later models (M16, M16A1, M16A2, M16A3, M16A4).

 

Lastly, the design modifications that I suggested were intended as a 'making the Kalashnikov rifle an acceptable general issue long arm in the militaries of the United States'. Hence the STANAG magazines. Hence the M9 bayonet compatibility. Hence the ambidextrous controls (British battle doctrine might be designed around righties-only, but US battle doctrine includes lefties). Hence the faster-to-aim sights. Hence the non-Russian optics.

 

And, to clarify, the optical sights were supposed to be placed in an area where the iron sights can still be used. The optical sights, furthermore, would not be permanently attached.

 

And, lastly, the only reason Venezuela bought the rights to locally produce the AK-103, along with multiple Russian-maunfactured versions, is so that if the US were to enact a trade embargo, Venezeula's military would be unhindered in its efforts to arm itself. No one buys the new AKs because everyone can get a virtually identical rifle for much cheaper than Izhmash is willing to produce. Hell, buying old M16s is probably cheaper than buying new Kalashnikovs. Of course, as I mentioned, Venezuela has its own reasons for buying the new rifles, which has nothing to do with their design or cost and everything to do with politics.

[sekiryu]

Wait...why are we wasting our time comparing the AK47 with the M16? The AK47 is a machine gun first and a rifle second--designed for urban warefare. The M16 is a rifle first and a machine gun second--designed for open fields and the like.

 

It's like comparing a Rapier with a Katana: a Rapier is meant for stabbing and a Katana is meant for slicing.

[Samm]

It's gone off so far on a tangent that's it more about "I WILL WIN!" I'm afraid.

[otherrandomhero]

Wow...this AK arguement is going nowhere slowly. The ak is nice to hold (as compared to the armalite, which i just plain dislike), shoots well, has great sights which i find i can zero in better with than armalite sights, but there's still something i don't like about it. Probably the look. Other than that, i can't think of any issues i have with the AK. The armalite, however, is where my problems lie.

 

1) The handgrip is too big. This sounds dumb, but i have stubby little fingers and huge palms so holding the front grip on the armalite is very uncomfortable.

2) The pistol grip is just bad. I can't really describe how i dislike it but i just do.

3) The rear sight hole is too big (even with the small one) and is tough to zero in with. On the AK it lines up perfectly, on the armalite it does not.

4) If you shoot lefthanded, getting at the mag release is a problem. However, if you shoot righty it is probably the best out there, seeing how you just move your finger up an inch to get it out.

 

Those are my armalite problems, and why i don't buy one. What else grinds my gears is how people are still saying to get back on topic. I know i did this about 15 pages back but remember: this thread is 27 pages long, it's bound to be off somewhere.

[sekiryu]

It's easy to release the mag with as a lefty on the Armalites. Just grab the mag and press the button with your thumb.