sekiryu Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 Right...worthless....when insects are nothing but pests that spread disease and bite you. And in some cases poison you. Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 The only animals I enjoy killing are insects... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I kill prairie dogs. Saves horses and cattle and feeds ferrets. And I don't have to worry about such petty things as 'season' or a game warden telling me that I'm using a cartridge that isn't powerful enough. And it's precision shooting. Link to post Share on other sites
T.P.Evan Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 I find killing mourning doves that fly in the path of targets in trap most fascinating. Nailed two or three this year Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltSky Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 What I fail to understand about the 5.56 argument is that if you hit someone in the chest or head they are going down pretty quick no matter how small the hole is. No amount of adrenaline can compensate for a collapsed lung. Not to mention the ballistic effects on bone I saw someone who fell on their back and smashed their shoulder blade; he had no inclination to get back up again and I'm sure that having it shattered by a bullet would make the issue just slightly worse. You may be able to carry on with a broken limb, but if an arm is out of action then I'd really like to see you try and hold a rifle effectively like that. Finally: I have shot both 5.56 and 7.62 at the range, I know what I'd rather be using if it were a choice between the two as far as recoil goes. Much more comfortable to shoot. Link to post Share on other sites
Insanejoe Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 What I fail to understand about the 5.56 argument is that if you hit someone in the chest or head they are going down pretty quick no matter how small the hole is. No amount of adrenaline can compensate for a collapsed lung. Not to mention the ballistic effects on bone I saw someone who fell on their back and smashed their shoulder blade; he had no inclination to get back up again and I'm sure that having it shattered by a bullet would make the issue just slightly worse. You may be able to carry on with a broken limb, but if an arm is out of action then I'd really like to see you try and hold a rifle effectively like that. Finally: I have shot both 5.56 and 7.62 at the range, I know what I'd rather be using if it were a choice between the two as far as recoil goes. Much more comfortable to shoot. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yeah a.22LR is more comfortableto shoot too but its cra in combat, and i shot a deer right through the vitals last weekend and watched it run for another 50 yards until it layed down and i had to finish it off. Another uncited source was a cop a while back who was on the force with my friends ad took 9 bullets and he lived to shoot multiple ciminals in the shootout before dying. you can do amazing things with adrenaline. Funny you should mention bone as hte tiny 5.56mm as it has been know to be deflected by bone. often bullets cause some initial shock and many pople dont even realise they are shot, which is why our US military is having the JCP competition and looking at other rifle rounds suh as he.8x43SPC Remington. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 yeah a.22LR is more comfortableto shoot too but its cra in combat Really? There was a news story awhile back where a kid killed 5 burglars with a .22 bolt action. I saw a video of some Palestinians running away and getting shot by the IDF. Yeah, one hit from a 5.56 round and they immediately hit the pavement. One sat up, but just sat there. Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Actually, if the 5.56mm NATO round were insufficient to the task, LE personnel wouldn't be using 5.56mm NATO carbines. Militaries are hard to change and have a shedload of bureaucracy to slow down any change-over in weapons and/or equipment. It was, afterall, the LE community that got cartridge and handgun manufacturers to invent the .40 S&W, the 10mm Auto, and the .357 SiG, in response to LE crticisim that the 9mm Parabellum was too weak and that the .45 ACP was too powerful. LE changes quickly. The military change slowly. LE personnel were carrying semi-automatics while most military officiers were still strapping revolvers to their thighs and running around with Thompson SMGs while most military personnel were using M1903 Springfields. Link to post Share on other sites
Insanejoe Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Actually, if the 5.56mm NATO round were insufficient to the task, LE personnel wouldn't be using 5.56mm NATO carbines. Militaries are hard to change and have a shedload of bureaucracy to slow down any change-over in weapons and/or equipment. It was, afterall, the LE community that got cartridge and handgun manufacturers to invent the .40 S&W, the 10mm Auto, and the .357 SiG, in response to LE crticisim that the 9mm Parabellum was too weak and that the .45 ACP was too powerful. LE changes quickly. The military change slowly. LE personnel were carrying semi-automatics while most military officiers were still strapping revolvers to their thighs and running around with Thompson SMGs while most military personnel were using M1903 Springfields. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> umm no, LE used revolvers mainly until the 80's as opposed to the military who has used them since the year 1911. 10mm and .40S&W were both invented by the FBI, the 10mm first for its power, and then the .40S&W because the 9x19mm was doing terrible in their drug raids and because the 10mm kicked too much(wusses) on the 10mm "Although having been selected by the FBI for use on the field, it proved too powerful to handle by many of its employees and too large for smaller handed individuals, both of which were a common problem with female agents. These issues led to the creation and eventual adoption by the FBI of a shortened version of the 10mm, known as the .40 Smith & Wesson. Although famous for its accuracy and stopping power, scarcity and high prices have made it a niche cartridge, with a small but enthusiastic group of supporters." Link to post Share on other sites
T.P.Evan Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Really? There was a news story awhile back where a kid killed 5 burglars with a .22 bolt action. I saw a video of some Palestinians running away and getting shot by the IDF. Yeah, one hit from a 5.56 round and they immediately hit the pavement. One sat up, but just sat there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's possible that that can happen. I saw a video of an Iraqi insurgent with an RPG that was shot and one 5.56 round actually hyper-extended his arm, I believe it was, but it took nearly 3 shots to finish the guy off. Just shows how the results with 5.56 can vary. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 The finishing shot was to the head. Saw that video too. But, the first shot knocked him on the ground, then he sat up, and got one in the chest and one in the head almost simultaneously, while a few other rounds hit the pavement around him. Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 umm no, LE used revolvers mainly until the 80's as opposed to the military who has used them since the year 1911. Negative. LE in the 'Wild' West used broomhandled Mausers. LE during the 1920s used Thompsons and 1911s, while the military was still using revolvers. (Yes, the M1911 was adopted in 1912, but it wasn't around in sufficient numbers, which is why we got the M1916 revolver.) 10mm and .40S&W were both invented by the FBI, the 10mm first for its power, and then the .40S&W because the 9x19mm was doing terrible in their drug raids and because the 10mm kicked too much(wusses) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Again, LE moves faster than the military. The FBI is an LE organization, not a military or even a para-military organization. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 If LE moves faster, then why were they so slow in getting AR15s? Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Because of a thing called 'political correctness'? Because no one felt that there was a need for your average officer to have a patrol rifle? Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltSky Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Yep, before they encountered criminals using body armor there was no need for anything of higher calibure. The situation changed and it didn't take long before there was a rifle in every patrol car. Thats faster than the military would adapt to the situation. If military did then weapons like the SA80 and M16 wouldn't still be in service because they would have been replaced rather than simply making constant fixes. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I believe I do recall someone saying that you can't kill a deer with a 5.56? Well, I just remembered that a few years ago I went to a friends farm. His dad had a Mini-14 in 5.56x45mm. He went off hunting that afternoon and came home with a deer carcass. Obviously 5.56 did something. Odd thing is though, the rounds had green plastic tips on them Link to post Share on other sites
evilliboba Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I believe I do recall someone saying that you can't kill a deer with a 5.56? Well, I just remembered that a few years ago I went to a friends farm. His dad had a Mini-14 in 5.56x45mm. He went off hunting that afternoon and came home with a deer carcass. Obviously 5.56 did something. Odd thing is though, the rounds had green plastic tips on them <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hollow-points? I believe the green tip is to help spread the round at the point of impact. Correct me if I am wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 No. I'v seen hollowpoints and they don't have green tips, much less plastic tips. They weren't standard rounds with green paint on the tips either. 4mm of the tips were green colored plastic attached to the metal bullet. It was weird. I've seen similar bullets with orange colored plastic tips too. Link to post Share on other sites
Tommygunn Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 They are hollow points except they have the plastic tip to maintain a ballistic ogive. This results is greater accuracy than standard hollow point ammunition and also protects the bullet's hollow point tip plus aids in feeding . Link to post Share on other sites
Insanejoe Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 I believe I do recall someone saying that you can't kill a deer with a 5.56? Well, I just remembered that a few years ago I went to a friends farm. His dad had a Mini-14 in 5.56x45mm. He went off hunting that afternoon and came home with a deer carcass. Obviously 5.56 did something. Odd thing is though, the rounds had green plastic tips on them <{POST_SNAPBACK}> polymer tipped bullet, like a scirroco. not hollow points either as *shock* the tip is full of polymer. and they arnt more accurate then hollowpoints as a whole, just depends on teh loading i.e. sierra's HPBT Match King is far more accurate then any polymer tipped bullet. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 So....what's the point in the polymer tip? Link to post Share on other sites
Tommygunn Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 i? Link to post Share on other sites
Insanejoe Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 So....what's the point in the polymer tip? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> suppose to have the aerodynamics of a pointed bullet with teh expansion close to a hollow point, upon impact the polymer tip shoves back into lead and causes rapid expansion. Polymer tips have also recently been used in Hornady's LEVERevolution which is the only pointed bullet which can be used in your standard tube mag lever action, it bends flat against the primers but when fed into the chamber instantly regains its pointed shape. as soon as the stores get some in im pickign them up for my marlin 336. Any other questions? Link to post Share on other sites
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