The Bushman Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 How about a thread where specific hardware is not discussed or equipment is not the focus. A thread about the mind set and skills used to get results in a game. Without these skills a bolt action player is at a disadvantage up against higher ROF 6mm guns. What are these skills then? Well each player will find different things work at his site, dependant on game length, area used, number of players, seasonal foliage and weather conditions. What i am asking here, is for you to write a tip down for us all that you feel is important and gets you results. I'll start off... EVASION. It is important to withdraw from an area way before opponents start to infiltrate it. Once you spot an opponent try to predict his intended route and reposition to a new area to ambush that predicted area. Keeping opponents at longer range is the best way to level your chances against AEG's. Keep them over 30m away whenever possible. Evasion will keep you in the game. Have the mind set, that staying safe is more important than getting the hit, on the target. I forgot that guideline recently, and it cost me a point. Do not rely on your sidearm to get you out of trouble. Try not to get into such situations in the first place. Withdraw early. This hit and fade tactic will annoy your opfor; after a while and they will tend to move up quicker, in an effort to keep in contact with you. Use this to your advantage and now and again ambush them early rather than completely evading, if they get sloppy. Evasion sometimes involves running, sometimes crawling or a combination of the 2. Do not evade in a straight line, as your route is too easily predicted by anyone following up. Vary your evasion tactics and do not use the same routes or areas that could be learnt by the opfor. Stay one step ahead and if in doubt, don't hang about, just reposition instead. ------ Hopefully this thread will spark off some conversation/debate about what really makes an effective single shot player. Happy Hunting Link to post Share on other sites
Staceh Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Your side arm is your best friend, practise practise practise, a decent sidearm can hit out to AEG ranges with as much accuracy, so at the ranges you'll be using it you want to be able to point shoot and hit every single time. Link to post Share on other sites
Staceh Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Learn when to withdraw, as stated above. As a addenum, fire - move - fire - move, if you stay stationary you will get spotted, then your dead. Link to post Share on other sites
Anatonic Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 If you don't mind me adding my two pennies worth... My personal opinion is that communication can make or break a game, mainly if you are playing as a part of a structured team or side. If there is one thing you can guarantee on for most games - it's that the opposing side will always try and flank you. This isn't always possible at some sites, but regardless most people seem to be stuck in the mindset of "sneaking around the back" of the enemy which has become all too predictable. So with this in mind, you need to be always aware of where your "escape route" is should you feel the enemy are starting to make ground towards your position. With a standardised comms net, your friends can be your peripherals and keep you updated about things you might not be able to see - allowing you more time to make a better judgement to take evasive action and re-deploy in a more sensible area. Radios are a common tool in the field, but are under-used and often lack the discipline required to make the comms effective rather than distractive. The most sensible way of doing this in my opinion is to do the following: - Appoint an overall leader and have them setup a Command Channel (e.g. Channel 1) - Split the team into either peer groups or sensible sized "fire teams" and have them assign an IC and 2IC within each small unit of players. - Assign each unit a channel (e.g. Channel 2, Channel 3 etc.) and have all the men except the 2IC tuned into this. - The 2ICs of each unit tune to the Command Channel and it is their job to relay messages between the teams and the overall command. The IC of each unit is then responsible for ensuring that his team is briefed according to what command intend to do. - Snipers / spotters tune directly to the Command channel and work on their own, or selctively with a unit if they so desire. This method is probably the easiest and most effective way of stopping the clutter of an entire side trying to talk to one another. The commander deals with appprox. 3 - 5 people who each represent a unit of men in the field and he can simply stay aware of the status of the overall battle. The ICs of each unit then have their own channel to talk to their team with and make the smaller decisions of how to tackle exactly what is going on in their vicinity. It gets all too messy if you don't do it this way as you end up crossing conversations with people on the other side of the field who are stuck in a firefight - making you less aware of what going on in your own area. Just a very brief look at it and I'd welcome any tips on improving the setup - it works but the only issue that is continually faced in the field is that of actually hearing someone. With the differing equipment and standards and choices of mics available, it can often mean the comms are useless if you can't hear them. Personally as a sniper I always used to use a throat mic which sufficed until I got a full headset with boom mic. There's no mistaking now that the clarity of my voice is superb and that I can hear team mates a lot more easily as well. As much as people tell me "Oh but you can't whisper like you can with a throat mic", you'll never change me back. Besides, if you have to whisper then you shouldn't be talking at all - use the PTT button to simply key a message to your team mates. The command channel should know when talking to a sniper that if they key a certain number of times it means yes and no - this should always be decided beforehand so that they are aware. I think the final advantage with this setup is your comms will be effectively unbreakable. It's not rocket science for them to scan the channels and find the conversations - they did this at DT 2006. However, it also means they'll never get the full picture - they can't listen to all the channels and even listening to just the command channel won't help them - they can't tell where any of the other teams are or what they're upto without listening to their channel. Link to post Share on other sites
RyanH Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Attaching natural foliage obviously gives a much greater effect of breaking up your shape and helping you to blend in. My local site is fairly dense woodland, and at the moment, there is very little natural foliage that could be used in that way. There's brown leaves over the floor, but thats about it. Are there any concealment tactics which would help in this situation? Link to post Share on other sites
thunderhammer Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Great topic! I'm writing an article about airsoft sniping for my local clubs website. It will be in finnish, but i have every intention of translating it to english. I will post it when its done. This thread will be of great help for me! Link to post Share on other sites
The Bushman Posted February 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 RyanH : First, you need to look at buying HUNTING clothing for that sort of environment to replace your combats/BDU's. ADVANTAGE, REAL TREE or MOSSY OAK all do several patterns. Look for the ones that have mainly brown leaf pattern. Real Tree (CLICK) have a big range of patterns. Check it out. Look at Classic. Don't get the orange version it is to fool colour blind animals. I don't want to discuss equipment in detail here.... more on the field craft, to make it work. In an open leafy environment, many players only hide by sitting behind a tree trunk. These places are too obvious (unless you get good cam for the trees in your area) and stand upright pressed to the shape of the tree. I have seen this work effectively. Winter is tough for local camoflague in my locations (not all) as much wilted foliage gets too brittle to stay stuffed in a cam loop for long. Leaves cannot be secured easily either. Instead you need to look at how you move around and probably crawl more. You will be able to see along way even if prone, in a winters barren environment. Being prone means you need to take your time and mix movement with stationary periods. The skill here, is knowing when you need to get down and crawl and when you need to move quicker in an upright stalk. Again size of site is the big factor in the difficulty of this. Small sites mean you wil have to crawl all the time to remain undetected. Big ghillie suits can draw the eye to you as the only lump in that area. Although many evergreen bushes (like holly) can be effective (but prickly) places to set up using a greener ghillie. Throw leaves over your back and hat (get your buddy to do it) some will stay on due to you moving slower and being prone. If ambushing, again make best use of the leaf litter and try to blend into the floor. Lastly keep as still as possible, but remember you will need to slowly shift your weight around now and again to keep the blood flowing . Here is the same subject as pictured above, from a wider shot. Anatonic : Sneaking around the back is one thing, but on larger sites this is still tough as you don't often know where the "back" is. Thunderhammer : Good luck with your project. Good Hunting Link to post Share on other sites
The Bushman Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Well looks like this important thread has been replaced with more talk of equipment. Time to get it back up to the top with some questions to create discussion: What are the benefits of upright and prone stalking? What are the downsides? What works for you, in what environment and why? Link to post Share on other sites
cl_metal_snake Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 This is a good one, that i use everytime, and has never let me down: "MAKE THE SHOT COUNT! IF IT AINT A CLEAR SHOT DONT TAKE IT!" Link to post Share on other sites
Bengali Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 This is a good one, that i use everytime, and has never let me down: "MAKE THE SHOT COUNT! IF IT AINT A CLEAR SHOT DONT TAKE IT!" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> remember when moving, that your bolt action with practice is capable of a reasonable ROF, not up to AEG levels obviously but its possible to get a few shots off in the time it would have taken to draw your secondary. but for extra protection when camped always have your secondary already drawn, cocked and infront of you ready to snatch up and fire should the situation call for it Link to post Share on other sites
Senor Bear Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 When using my gspec and not in a crouching or prone position i.e. standing up, AND moving, I will have it slung over my shoulder and have my secondary drawn, this prevents me from having to use what is comparably a large and cumbersome weapon in a difficult situation. I can get off many more shots at an AEG gunner with say, my p99 than I could with my gspec in a short space of time where quick reactions are needed and stealth is left on the shelf. To put it in context, I need something mobile and able to fire faster than a bolty if i am jumped by some tangos. Link to post Share on other sites
MooCow Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 hmm... what i find useful and worked? doing something they dont expect. i.e. when they wanna rush you in a horde, they'll probably win with the odds of being out-numbered or with a cloud of BBs. me and my sniping buddy, rush them back. worked once... take 2 quick shots when still prone, rush forward a few metres at a time while recharging the boltie, taking a shot at them each time you've recharged. element of suprise and using the last few seconds of time before they're in range. and another thing, if you know you can squeeze a shot off and run off without being noticed. think for a second, if that shot can wait longer for a better shot or score numerous kills? dont rely on your secondary only use it when there's poop being flung at the fan. i try not to acknowledge i have a secondary unless i'm trying to hide and/or evade a group of people passing by... then i'm ready to pop up and scream and make funny noises while i pull the trigger as quick as i can waving my pistol/mp7 around like mad hoping it'll hit them all Link to post Share on other sites
The Bushman Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Well, the art of stalking.... Say the word "Sniper" and people suddenly conjure up thoughts of ghillied individuals, crawling slowly an inch at a time, across the forest floor. Spending hours moving into a firing position to take a single long ranged shot. Hitting the mark and then slowly crawling away again to a new position. Many peoples thoughts are based on films they have seen, or photographs of the military snipers in action. However, that is not the reality of using a short ranged 6mm gun in an Airsoft game (or even many real modern military situations). ...... Say the word "Hunter" and people imagine a camoflagued man sneaking through the undergrowth and looking out for quarry to shoot or track. His shots are more oppertunistic and after shooting he moves off to look for more quarry or to follow up his shot. Now to me, this sounds like many Airsofter players in reality. ....... Both HUNTER and SNIPER use the same tactic of laying ambush. Now and again they stop moving and watch for sign of a target coming their way. What are the advantages of the two styles and the downsides too? Well, crawling is great at keeping you undetected at a glance, even in more open areas. A crawling stalker can easily freeze at any stage and become part of the forest floor. However, when it comes to several things, crawling is disadvantagious. Crawling through cover and hiding amongst it, is great, until you realise your own LOS is vastly reduced and therefore the possibilities of firing at longer range can be vastly reduced, unless the contours/terrain favour it. Crawling means you are limited to facing one direction without lots of movement. This can mean you can be flanked without being aware of it. Indeed, crawling means you can get close to people without them knowing, but also means they can be close to you and not seen too. Indeed, if you are amongst grass then your eyes are low down and limited by the foliage. However, your head and back could still be high enough for them to be seen at longer distance. Many would say that is what a ghillie suit is for, but no matter how good your suit is, movement is what gives you away. Meanwhile the upright stalker has many differences to the crawler. Firstly, he is upright and therefore his eyes have far better LOS over the foliage. This is like ancient man as a hunter on the plains of africa. He is tall to see prey at far longer distance. He can look in all directions without much movement of his body and can keep an eye on his rear and flanks easily. OK, his concealment is far harder and no matter what his ghillie is like; while upright he is often obvious from long distance. Stalking a target upright means you can cover ground far quicker and also get away in 1 second too. If the prey is not looking your way, you can use your upright advantage to move up into range quicker or cross a gap in cover. So there you go: stance is a trade of Concealment vs LOS vs Movement. Therefore in short, crawling is a stalking technique, that is best suited to a player who wants concealment over observation. I suggest the best combination is therefore to start stalking upright (just like a lion does) until the prey is spotted. Once the lion reaches a position where it feels that the quarry is unaware of her presence, she starts to crawl slowly forward until within striking distance. Crocodiles do similar. They float on the surface where they have best LOS until they see an oppertunity. They then note the targets location and dissappear under the surface. They crawl along the bottom until they are within striking distance. Take a leaf out of the natural predators book and adopt this style of stalking to get success. Personally, I hardly ever go prone, other than for stationary ambush. Often I can get close enough upright to take the shot unseen. I suggest a player who mainly crawls all day, will get far fewer shots than one that stalks upright (to start with). Hope you got that Link to post Share on other sites
AGuy Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 anyone got any advice as to where to "hide" or what have you? I always seem to be vulnerable Link to post Share on other sites
cl_metal_snake Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 anyone got any advice as to where to "hide" or what have you? I always seem to be vulnerable <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well when i play players always spot me because of my black hair (cause we play in a very light green bush) So i tried to find a place to hide, and effectively hide my hair. And this worked for me very effectively. Link to post Share on other sites
amsniper Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 correct me if im wrong Bushman but you sound like a hunter? i agree - stalking rather than sniping is more appropriate! - i find being (for lack of a better phrase) a "sneaky bast**d" works a treat! - i do not own a bolty - i have a full length G36 rifle and i love it! - im more of a squad marksman ie i move with the squad as and when. a few weeks ago - i was ghillied up and making use of it when i could! - but mine is a stalker (jacket) style ghillie so i can move more easily! at one point we were engaged in a firefight with a bravo! - now i hadnt been seen at all - so i crawled through the bush we were behing - popped out the other side and double tapped him. (you could say you could do this without a ghillie and indeed you could.) the look of suprise and shock - that the seemingly innocent bush had moved and shot him was priceless! - i guess the point is that he didnt expect me to be there! which i used to my advantage! - so - when doing an ambush try and hide where you probably wouldnt normally! -it only takes another sniper on the opposing team to think - i know where id be - for them to have a good idea where you are! ie dont hide in the great big thick bush - hide in the little bush with lots of heather (or whatever) - if you do that then you will need to be more reliant on camo! - i hope you all understood that??? ambushing is fun! on the same day we tried to lay an ambush (sadly it didnt work) but the theory is sound! get the rest of your squad to go forward - to an enemy position and mix it up a bit - in the hope that they will be followed upon retreat. lay in wait behind the retreat and ambush any who follow! he he he then retreat yourself obviously regards amsniper Link to post Share on other sites
Senor Bear Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 If you exclaim like that in airsoft it is a wonder you don't get shot all the time Link to post Share on other sites
amsniper Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 If you exclaim like that in airsoft it is a wonder you don't get shot all the time <{POST_SNAPBACK}> clearly you have never experienced the "rent-a-guns" at GZ indeed i'd stay well clear if i offended you! - my apologies to any whom i offended with my comments. i did not mean to cause offence. many thanks regards amsniper Link to post Share on other sites
Anatonic Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Love this topic - I have to agree that going prone is a rareity in any airsoft games I've played, unless it is specifically for a pre-setup and known ambush (e.g. you know the opposing team will have to move through a certain area). I've always found it much more advantageous to move in a slightly crouched walking fashion - especially during summer months in the more dense sites. Sites such as these provide ample cover to keep you from being noticed, but once a target has been acquired, it doesn't mean you have to lay down. More often than not, stood behind a tree will keep you from being spotted and gives you a much clearer shot at the target than through possible deflections from undergrowth. I find if you're playing a very open site (like Dover) which doesn't necessarily have cover all the time, then it's probably an idea to move much more quickly and hit the floor once you've spotted a potential target. If nothing else when you pull the shot it gives you a extra second or two before they see where the shot came from - which is ample time to get your *albatross* into gear and move on out, hitting the deck again when clear and when you find your next target. The only gripe I have with some snipers is the fact that they do crawl everywhere and sometimes never even get a kill all day. To them it's a success because they were never spotted but how can they be spotted if they're at the back crawling upto the front?! I say you may as well get a bit more stuck in - take a chance and learn how to achieve a better success rate with those chances. You may get hit, but hey you've just got to go back and try again! You soon learn to gauge when to move, when to wait and when to shoot - I've found it frustrating over this past year and I still do - but there are those times when everything comes together, you get some kills and the adrenalin high is second-to-none! I'd be interested to hear peoples approach to being a 'hunter' in more open terrain - always wondered if anyone had any tips or possible things to try out? Link to post Share on other sites
amsniper Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Love this topic - I have to agree that going prone is a rareity in any airsoft games I've played, unless it is specifically for a pre-setup and known ambush (e.g. you know the opposing team will have to move through a certain area). I've always found it much more advantageous to move in a slightly crouched walking fashion - especially during summer months in the more dense sites. Sites such as these provide ample cover to keep you from being noticed, but once a target has been acquired, it doesn't mean you have to lay down. More often than not, stood behind a tree will keep you from being spotted and gives you a much clearer shot at the target than through possible deflections from undergrowth. I find if you're playing a very open site (like Dover) which doesn't necessarily have cover all the time, then it's probably an idea to move much more quickly and hit the floor once you've spotted a potential target. If nothing else when you pull the shot it gives you a extra second or two before they see where the shot came from - which is ample time to get your *albatross* into gear and move on out, hitting the deck again when clear and when you find your next target. The only gripe I have with some snipers is the fact that they do crawl everywhere and sometimes never even get a kill all day. To them it's a success because they were never spotted but how can they be spotted if they're at the back crawling upto the front?! I say you may as well get a bit more stuck in - take a chance and learn how to achieve a better success rate with those chances. You may get hit, but hey you've just got to go back and try again! You soon learn to gauge when to move, when to wait and when to shoot - I've found it frustrating over this past year and I still do - but there are those times when everything comes together, you get some kills and the adrenalin high is second-to-none! I'd be interested to hear peoples approach to being a 'hunter' in more open terrain - always wondered if anyone had any tips or possible things to try out? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> great post there anatonic your absolutley right about going prone! - i rarely do it! -as you say its only wher your near a target that you need to be extra sneaky staying prone for the whole day cant be fun surely? ok so you havent got hit! but getting stuck in is what its all about! - id like to bet that a good number of "snipers" have an aeg somewhere so that they cant get a bit stuck in occasionally. about being a hunter in open terain - well i am one. my shoot is a very large grassy field. so i have to be extra careful. - not only that i use an air rifle so i have to get quiet close as it is! generally - walk slowly in a crouched position, once a quarry has been spotted then its down on the belly and crawling into range - very slowly - in airsoft you dont have to be so slow as humans are no way near as wary as rabbits. on average it'll take 40mins to crawl say 30m - ish! then you just have to set up your shot slowly and fire. i would deffinately apply this to airsoft - indeed i do personally. on a seperate note - im not quite sure that airsofters in generally realise how important it is to control breathing, nerves/excitement and to ensure they squeeze rather than snap the trigger! the latter has lead to many a missed shot when target shooting! i quote BHD - SLOW IS SMOOTH, AND SMOOTH IS FAST. a better doctrine for sniping there could not be! regards all amsniper Link to post Share on other sites
Skorn Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 But there were like no snipers in Black Hawk Down (the only "snipers" had an M14 and an M733) Link to post Share on other sites
amsniper Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 sorry - its in the making on disc 2 - the main character quotes a doctrine! only watched it last night. lol back to field craft - what is the generally preffered ghillie suit? -full -full , rear only -jacket only (stalker style) other? i personally use a stalker style ghillie (primarilly for hunting) as it allows me to walk easily and retain a good lever of camo! regards amsniper Link to post Share on other sites
Bengali Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 i like cloak style, with hood, rolled up on my back for ease of movement, but when i find a nice spot i can deploy it, as a cloak over my back, a hood and two arm length strips about 8 inch wide with elastric wrist straps to do the back of my arms without getting in the way. can quickly be taken off rolled up and replaced allowing ease of movement however cant really do it under fire very well, so i just tend to leave it down once its down unless i get hot Link to post Share on other sites
MooCow Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 But there were like no snipers in Black Hawk Down (the only "snipers" had an M14 and an M733) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> isnt that more of a designated marksman? well similar tactics CAN be used but in BHD, there's not much long range shooting/stalking/C&C etc etc Link to post Share on other sites
amsniper Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 i like cloak style, with hood, rolled up on my back for ease of movement, but when i find a nice spot i can deploy it, as a cloak over my back, a hood and two arm length strips about 8 inch wide with elastric wrist straps to do the back of my arms without getting in the way. can quickly be taken off rolled up and replaced allowing ease of movement however cant really do it under fire very well, so i just tend to leave it down once its down unless i get hot <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i like the sound of that - piccies if you would! - about the BHD thing - i believe they are reffered to as snipers (but then it is a film) but thats way off topic - and i wasnt making any referance to them anyway! rather to disc 2. so lets get back on topic shall we? regards amsniper Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.