Electropneumatic Airsoft Guns

[pace]

Purely looking from a practicality point of view:

Yesterday i was playing a lovely game where i was defending a hut, i had both my M4 and M700 with me.

Sharp shooting with the 700, some good kills there! Then when the sneaky ones reached my min engagment distance and were popping rounds in the window i could jump on to the M4, having gas tanks floating around would just of got right in the way, small place tones of incoming fire, 4 of us hiding swapping out weapon as mags jammed or the others got hit. You can see the issue here.

 

Next, the site i play on is down in a sub valley of a valley, how would one keep extra C02 down there being that it is a totally outdoor site. On top of this we would have the hire fleet to think of, for anyone that runs a site already i'm sure you know the issues of trying to keep a hire fleet running, bits go missing parts break, guns are miss treated. Electrics + gas would just offer to much to go wrong.

 

In theory i think the idea of the eletropneumatic box is cool, but i cant see it replacing the boxs we have already.

 

Moving on to the FPS problems people have bought up, we run a for Jersey a very large site but even here where FPS laws don't exsist (I.E, 500FPS in aeg is not a problem as far as the law is concerned) people don't like getting shot by that sort of power at close range. I my self take pride in sniping from a long range and getting the hits, however i still sometimes get in a little closer than i should.

The fact that a gun could easily reach 500fps with the twist of dial would scare people, sites would be even more FPS NAZI and i can see it leading to allot of problems.

 

Well thats my take on it anyway

[Sale]

A few comments to the discussion.

 

The Escort system offers strong blowback and very consistent velocity. Combined with a proper barrel and hop-up it's accurate as well, so the skirmish-necessities and realism factor are fulfilled.

 

The remaining drawback of the Escort (for some) is the external rig. The system is very economical with gas (whereas the older BV guns are horrible gas hogs), so it could be ran even off a moderately sized internal tank. Even a 74 gram CO2 cartridge provides enough gas for several hundreds of shots, and may even go over one thousand. (I haven't tested the exact amount yet.) Such a tank could be fitted inside the suppressor/hand guard area of an MP5 SD model (with the barrel running through the center), or inside the stock if it's solid.

 

The only problem is: No-one makes a designated tank/regulator combination, which would fit exactly inside these things. If I had the time and machinery to make one, I'd probably hit it, but it would not be any help to other people: I wouldn't want to bear the liability of someone else using a high pressure tank I built.

 

---

 

I wish people stopped spreading these rumours about classic guns, that you can go from 328 to 600 fps simply by turning the regulator. You can't. Some systems allow it, but the majority of classic and other gas guns don't. You can fine-tune the velocity, but any bigger changes require fiddling with springs and possibly O-rings and other parts. It's not something you can do in the blink of an eye.

 

Further, there's an easy solution to stopping people from adjusting the pressure in the field (if they have a weapon which makes it possible)= regulator locks. And there's the point about the honesty of airsofters as well. We shoot each other with guns and are expected to call the hit, even if no mark was left. Would you play at all with someone you don't trust?

 

A solenoid system does not offer any realism over an AEG. Gas guns without a specific effective blowback aren't any bit more exiting to shoot than AEGs. The realism issue goes out of the window if you start adjusting the ROF to 1800 rpm just like that.

 

I think some hardcore gamers would adopt an airsoft gun with this kind of a solenoid system, and it wouldn't even have to be a replica of any existing weapon. Then again, there are classics which can be tuned for this role (insane ROF and muzzle velocity), and people with this mentality are more likely to play paintball in the first place.

 

-Sale

[Corkie121]

I've played paintball for a while before wanting to start airsoft and the only reason that they need such a huge gas tank is because of the sie of the balls that they fire. they can also be fired off the small 12g co2 cartridges and the mechanism of almost all markers can be changed to fire airsoft. Dunno if this'll be any help to you but it is possible and you could experiment with it for less than 50 quid.

 

Have a go,

Corkie

[SDellJunior]

Okay so I'm not a paint-baller and most of the technical stuff goes right over my head. Heres my thinking on the innovations topic though:

 

The #1 problem is cost. I don't mean the actual price of these hypothetical new guns but the cost to the airsoft community. This concept, while innovative and with its strong points, is an entirely new direction. While the concept is interesting to me, I can't help but think of all the guns and accessories the many people I know who play and myself have and I shudder to think what this would mean. Think about all the money you've sunk into AEGs and accessories and upgrades for them and then consider starting over from square one (so to speak) with a whole new setup. I'm not bashing this concept and I think it makes for an interesting discussion but I would venture to say that airsoft needs an improvement on the current system and not a revolution as this seems to me to be. Just my thoughts I felt like chipping in.

 

EDIT: I just wanted to address the realism issue because to get technical the most realistic MilSim you could do would be with SimMunitions.

[Kama]

I have been thinking of this magnet driven "gearbox" system before. And i have always thougth about a piston riding inside a electromagnet and driving the replica bolt and air-piston. The piston would be made of steel and longer than the travel of the bolt /air piston, that way you should not need to use as strong magnet as if you used a pushing magnet in one end. The problems would be to get the initial movment of the piston started and limiting the magnetism outside of the "piston area". Its all theories.

 

If i remember corectly a electric motor is a electromagnet that turns a Central axel, and everting dont stick to motors all the time! what i want should then be a pushing electric motor? why dont i remember more from sience class!!

 

 

If someone manages to combine the escort system and hpa tanks with a decent capacity in the gun or a smaller one in mags all this is unnesesary!!

[Nic @ Airsoftworldwide]

Yeah,

 

but no I'm afraid. Its been explored before and I believe its been dabbled with in classic airsoft but for this that and the other its not taken forward anymore.

 

[Stealthbomber]

What you're talking about is, basically, a solenoid.

 

People have considered using them to pull an AEG spring back. That won't work, though, because solenoids aren't really that powerful.

Equally, people have considered using a solenoid to push the piston forward. This is unlikely to work very well either since the solenoid is unlikely to accelerate fast enough to compress the air well enough.

 

All in all, an electromechanical gearbox would be easy to build but it'd probably end up taking a helluva lot of modifying and tuning to get it working properly.

[Xantos]

What you're talking about is, basically, a solenoid.

 

People have considered using them to pull an AEG spring back. That won't work, though, because solenoids aren't really that powerful.

Equally, people have considered using a solenoid to push the piston forward. This is unlikely to work very well either since the solenoid is unlikely to accelerate fast enough to compress the air well enough.

 

All in all, an electromechanical gearbox would be easy to build but it'd probably end up taking a helluva lot of modifying and tuning to get it working properly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At work we have a special piece of equipment that's called "a shaker". It's basically a strong electromagnet that can produce up to 30G's of acceleration and is intended for testing accelerometers. So it is possible to make strong enough magnets. It all comes down to battery capacity and introducing a proper mechanism.

[Stealthbomber]

At work we have a special piece of equipment that's called "a shaker". It's basically a strong electromagnet that can produce up to 30G's of acceleration and is intended for testing accelerometers. So it is possible to make strong enough magnets. It all comes down to battery capacity and introducing a proper mechanism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it small enough to fit inside an AEG?

[Kama]

Found what i was talking about on the net!

 

Linear motors:

http://www.linmot.com/lm_typo/index.php?id=15

seems to have enoug power, stroke length an maybe even size to be useable.

 

Problems? I cant tell but i get a feeling they run of 220 volt are expesive and maybe to slow. Did not manage to find the information.

[mcnuggets]

I think it's going to be hard to match the efficiency of the Mauri gearbox. Especially with a linear solenoid system. It might be possible but a large solenoid and a larger battery pack to make up for that loss in efficiency might be necessary. Then again I'm no engineer.

[mcnuggets]

DP

[amateurstuntman]

Is it just me or is the WA Jatimatic not basically just what you are talking about?

Electrically operated mechanism shooting measured ammounts of gas?

The solenoid is unneccesary, you could use the same system as the monster gas gearbox but with a proprietary design.

Perhaps with the motor in the buffer tube and a gas reservoir in the pistol grip?

 

The way I see it classics already give you all the felt recoil you need and fun but with (in most cases) an external tank.

AEGs don't have the external tank but they sound like sewing machines.

 

These two camps split airsoft.

 

If someone made a gun that had all the best features of both types then that would be impressive but I think it would have a limited market.

[Nic @ Airsoftworldwide]

At work we have a special piece of equipment that's called "a shaker". It's basically a strong electromagnet that can produce up to 30G's of acceleration and is intended for testing accelerometers. So it is possible to make strong enough magnets. It all comes down to battery capacity and introducing a proper mechanism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats a thought. Is it anything like those rail systems? I'm not sure if thats what you're reffering to but its basically accelerating something at an incredible velocity through erm, *engage crappy physics knowledge* negatively or positively charged rails (depending on the charge of the projectile) and then giving the rails a surge of positive or negative charge which then hurls the projectile down a long and narrow barrel.

 

I believe a lot of modern subs and battleships have them except the fire depleted uranium. Sabots I think the missles are called.

[Sale]

Is it just me or is the WA Jatimatic not basically just what you are talking about?

Electrically operated mechanism shooting measured ammounts of gas?

The WA JaTiMatic is basically an NBB, with an electric gear train to move the nozzle back and forth, and to cock and release the internal striker, which opens the valve.

 

-Sale

[Husky]

i think that if people in the airsoft community opened their minds to paintball and learn slightly how the guns work, they'd realize that an electropneumatic airsoft gun is entirely plausible. It would probably operate at quite a low pressure, seeing as how bbs are much lighter and smaller than paintballs, so even a small hpa tank would last a full game, and you could just change out tanks between games. The way RAP4 markers work is pretty close to the right idea.

 

edit: after reading through the whole thread, i realized that everyone seems to think that the gun has to be run by a spring powered piston to create compression. Thats not what would happen with a pneumatic gun. Air would flow through a bolt to push the bolt forward to chamber the round and fire it out the barrel. air through a different area would then blow the bolt back to return it to battery. The air flow would be controlled by a circuit board, more than likely housed in the grip, and the trigger would hit a microswitch on the circuit board. the real trick would be getting Select Fire selector switches to control firing modes.

[ZAXAQUAR]

I like simunition I'd have to say, it's the best. Besides the fact that you're talking 700-800 fps rounds flying around. Anyhow, it's never bad to try to push technology. So keep ideas coming. take care guys (sorry if this post made no sense; I'm half asleep).

[blooboi]

I am always surprised when people chime in on how the hose is annoying when they haven't used them yet or how Tanks are cumbersome. Does your 2 Liter bladder flop around when you play? I run 2 20oz tanks and a 9oz thank in my hydropack and still have room for the 2 liter bladder filled with water. My MGC 10/22 can get about 300-400 shots with a 12 gram bulb. When hooked to the 24oz tank I use for tuning, I don't think i have ever refilled it. At my local army navy surplus store, i can have those 20oz refilled for 2 dollars ( plus tax, so actually 2.15) Actually, having my tanks in my bladder pack tends to make my water cooler with each shot, not freezing temperatures but who can refuse a cool sip under desert sun.

 

The hose is again a poorly understood issue. THERE IS NO FLEXIBILITY LOSS, I have an externally powered shotgun, rifle, smg and pistol, all have enough slack to throw down, switch plugs if i have to and re-shoulder after I reload. Allot of people argue that the hose might get caught on a obstruction, so what? i have had my vest, sling, parts of my body caught on branches/low laying brush/roots as i crawl thrice as often as my hose. If you just attach it any old place, you might, MIGHT, have issues, but who here haphazardly places random items on their kit without fore-thought? From the bladder-pack to my arm pit and up to my guns. Simple.

 

Upkeep wise. I was tired of AEG's Gearboxes when i took the plunge. Thanks to Spiggy the switch was simple and painless. I've witnessed/experienced TM's, CA's, ICS, VFC's ###### out in some form. Come check out the repair rack at the shop and you can see electrical problems, sealing issues and the sort, several being stock. I am not saying classics are error proof, nothing can't be solved with common sense, AEG or Classic. Feeding issue, take-down and lube/correct O-ring position. Shooting too fast/weak? place a spacer in the BV unit's barrel spring for some punch and reduction of FPS.

 

The reason they can't have realiable internal tanks is because of needed input pressure and space. The cooldown effect of green gas matched with the small container gives you sub-par performance.

 

Realism wise, Yes, there are gun in real steel that cannot have direct ROF control. Hitting power/ FPS, well thats based on ammo used, steel/copper core/grain and the sorts, but that a different story. But you can't, CAN'T, counter that everybody in the AEG world uses stock ROF/FPS for realism. Its simply too large of a blanket statement. Granted many do enjoy the realism, but there is reason the industry ends up creating/selling/installing High powered springs, turbo motors, high-speed gears, 9.6v-12v batteries, these people want their guns shooting harder and faster than the other guy.

 

To each their own, but don't down on one side until you have experienced both sides of the genre.

 

And comparing classics users to paintballers because of our tanks, thats pretty misguided.

 

After all this, I still use AEG's

 

Btw, the TM video with the bike pump. PROPAGANDA! IIRC the MGC berreta was the gun in question.

[Xantos]

Thats a thought. Is it anything like those rail systems? I'm not sure if thats what you're reffering to but its basically accelerating something at an incredible velocity through erm, *engage crappy physics knowledge* negatively or positively charged rails (depending on the charge of the projectile) and then giving the rails a surge of positive or negative charge which then hurls the projectile down a long and narrow barrel.

 

I believe a lot of modern subs and battleships have them except the fire depleted uranium. Sabots I think the missles are called.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they're based on a permanent magnet. The drawback here is that it uses a very high current.

 

If anyone has time and is quite good at physics to make calculations of how much compresssion, force, etc. replica has to have, then we could see if these theories are feasible or not.

 

750 rpm equals 12.5 rps equals 12.5 Hz. So this is the frequency the electromotor would have to operate at to achieve somewhat realistic rate of fire.

 

The core of this electromotor could be from neodym magnets that are fairly cheap and can achieve a magnetic field of 1T (that's so strong that you can't pull two magnets apart...you'd have to slide them apart). Quite a lot of force and I think this would be perfect for this kind of application - strong and small.

[M14]

If airsoft turned to CO2 or air powered I would stop playing. One reason I stoped paintballing was bacause the realism was horrible. Either you has this heavy bulky tank attached to you gun or you had this annoying cord running to your gun and a heavy backpack. Also air powered things are just a pain in the *albatross*. Leaks and ###### like that were allways problems. A purly mechanical or electrical gun is a lot easier to troubleshoot and fix than a air powered gun. Also one of the best things about airsoft is realism and a tank is not realistic, except for a damn flamethrower.

[mcnuggets]

Either you has this heavy bulky tank attached to you gun or you had this annoying cord running to your gun and a heavy backpack.

 

Sure, you take a hit with realism with the remote cord hanging off your gun. But you can dress it up like it's a retention line. And some of that realism is made up for with that satisfying pop oppose to the completely unrealistic crazy sewing machine sound.

 

A purly mechanical or electrical gun is a lot easier to troubleshoot and fix than a air powered gun.

 

I wouldn't say that. The problems for my paintball gun (and most of the guys I play with) were usually fixed with a simple o-ring swap. I mean you have to admit paintball guns have a durability advantage over airsoft guns. Full metal bodies are the norm and there's no gears or cylinders to strip.

[adidadrenalin]

as a crossover player from paintball to airsoft, i feel like a majority of those opposed to this concept don't realize how far paintball manufacturers have pushed the technology that the classic airsoft guns used. Let's face it...in 3-5 years, things can easily become outdated, so why not in 10? my point is that with the advent of the use of solenoids in paintball guns came untouched consistency and reliability of the guns. all of the top paintball manufacturers now utilize solenoids in their electropneumatic guns. Its fast, easy, reliable and consistent. Also, if a 48 cubic inch HPA tank, which is about the size of a gatorade bottle, can run a typical paintball gun for about 800-1200 shots, propelling a paintball which weighs 3 grams, you could easily get 15 times that with an aeg. Even more if the cycling system in the gun used smaller parts, which i would venture to say it would.

 

As far as increasing velocity, simply leaving the electronic buttons for adjustment inside the aeg with the solenoid would be simple enough, just like a lot of paintball markers. This makes it accessible for chronographing purposes, but inaccessible during gameplay.

 

I would also venture to say that the concept of filling a stock of a gun with hpa would work also, as long as the walls of the stock were aluminum, or steel or carbon fiber. You wouldn't get a lot of shots out of it, but it would definitely work. And HPA works consistently in any temperature as long as the regulator on it is decent.

 

I know this isn't exactly mil sim, but i mean if you were truly mil sim enthusiasts, get your hands on a simunitions gun or the miles gear laser system.

[deepsprayj]

I concur with the others who have had paintball gun experience. An electropneumatic system would work very well in airsoft. The reduced weight of an airsoft bb would allow for extremely low operating pressures. A 45/4500 hpa tank might provide one with 1,000 shots before refilling due to the small amount of air needed to push the bb. The system would be about equal in complexity to that of an aeg, just in a different way. Paintball solenoids would work and they cost about 50 to 100 dollars. A fiber wrapped stock shaped tank is also entirely possible. The solenoid needs a circuit board to control it, but this is what allows for burst modes and rampnig and such. It might be cool to see something like this. The cost is going to be in machining the parts that hold gas. These parts need to be able to handle quite a bit of pressure if one of the in-line regulators fails.

[Redcap]

Personally, I can't see what all the fuss is about regarding the internal mechanism process (gears, gas, etc); the whole idea behind the GAD we tried to work up was to reduce the mechanical noise (the sewing machine against your ear, lol) from an AEG; the best process to our minds was a solenoid (good find on Linear motors, btw, Kama ); the problem, as others have noted above, was the lack of motive power vs available energy source, while retaining the overall external looks of the model; that and the fact that we weren't that good at the design theory side, lol, but that's getting away from the point at the moment.

 

My current argument is therefore this: What on earth does it matter if something was designed for paintball markers, if the technology involved can successfully be transferred over to the Airsoft world? Purism? Don't make me laugh - I greatly suspect that most of us wouldn't give two stuffs as long as (for example) the M16 looked like an M16, accepted Marui style magazines, and did the job - firing off 6mm Airsoft pellets at a fairly high rate of fire, maintained range, and took the current batteries that are available.

 

I'll continue watching this thread with interest