Worth it?

[crimsonfalcon07]

Incidentally, EdGI sells ported BAR-10 barrels these days.

[Rhyn0]

as for the longer barrel, i would recomend emailing rhyn0 first. he said that he was going to do a test on his vsr with a 430mm v. 555mm barrels, so he may be able to provide you with some good information on that.

 

was unable to properly sit down and test that extensively due to RL and my friend with the chrono being away on vacation, but a couple of skirmishes and a few hundred practice shots told me this:

-430 barrel is oddly enough more accurate than the 555mm barrel ( both Laylax 6.03)- groupings tighter by 5 cm at 28 meters + less fliers

-555 barrel adds some extra effective range over the 430( flat trajectory extends further by aprox 5 meters, and rate of descent afterwards is gentler than with the 430)

 

Will post complete results in the VSR thread as soon as i get my hands on the chrono.

I'm sorry i can't answer the 6.01 question as i do not have such a barrel.

[scithe]

Don't want to be picky, but.................

 

Why do you think a slower moving piston would cause more recoil?

 

Does any one else notice this?  More recoil with less powerful springs?

Greg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

no. i am saying that due to how the spring is originally moving at a certain speed and pushing at a certain amount of air pressure. then all of a sudden the spring hits what is like a solid wall of air since the bb is moving too slowly in relativity to the air behind it. the piston suddenly hitting against this wall of air would, i think, cause a recoil effect.

[Stealthbomber]

I've never felt an airsoft gun of any kind have recoil.

 

I've felt a couple of gas and classics that'd rattle a bolt around nicely but that aint recoil.

Equally, if you feel anything when you shoot a springer (airsoft or air rifle) it'll be the piston hitting the front of the cylinder.

 

If you feel that MORE with a 6.01 barrel it's because the piston is hitting the front of the cylinder harder.

 

If you still think you're right try this...

Find a gun such as a G3 or MP5. The ICS M4 will do as well.

Now take the lower receiver off so the gearbox is exposed.

Put the gun in semi auto mode.

Put your finger over the nozzle.

Pull the trigger.

 

If your right about the recoil then you should have just felt a huge kick as ALL the energy from the gun firing surged backwards.

Or something.

 

Except you didn't feel anything.

 

Because it doesn't work like that.

[greg]

Actually;

 

Action gives equal & opposite reaction.

 

So:

 

As the spring is released there will be a growing recoil proportional to the power of the spring as it decompreses & dampened by any resistance the bb in the pipe makes & the weight/mass of the gun v's the weight/mass of the piston.

 

Then, (as stealth states) a more pronounced 'coil' or jump forward as the piston stops suddenly against the cylinder head. (air break & damper pads reduce this.)

 

As the 'coil' is so close to & more pronounced than the recoil, it is unlikely that you would feel the recoil.

 

TBH unless you are using a massive spring in a really light weight gun you are unlikely to feel anything other than a slight vibration. I've fired a 190sp in a standard bodied g-spec & although the vibe was more noticable than a standard g-spec, I'd hardly describe it as 'recoil'.

 

Either way the 'effect' (call it what you will) will be more pronounced, the faster the piston moves (piston moves quicker with no bb to push) & the lighter the gun.

 

So if a barrel is, as you say, slowing the piston down, then the effect will be less, not more.

 

 

Greg.

[Stealthbomber]

Actually;

 

Action gives equal & opposite reaction.

 

So:

 

As the spring is released there will be a growing recoil proportional to the power of the spring as it decompreses & dampened by any resistance the bb in the pipe makes & the weight/mass of the gun v's the weight/mass of the piston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct idea but incorrectly applied.

 

The saying "For every action there's an equal but opposite reaction" is actually a simplified summary of the laws of physics that govern dissipation of energy.

 

Basically, there's nothing that says the "equal but opposite reaction" has to take place at the same time as the "action".

For example, If you accelerate in a car and then brake, you'll use a given amount of energy to accelerate and then, when you brake, you'll dissipate exactly that same amount of energy again.

It doesn't happen at the same time.

 

When you shoot an AEG the spring is in tension and wants to move forward or backward (it doesn't care) but there's a solid gearbox wall stopping it moving backwards.

When you pull the trigger the winds backwards (building energy) and then flies forwards (releasing energy).

If you feel any "recoil" from that cycle it should happen as the spring winds. Of course, you don't feel anything because the spring damps the movement and, besides, the cycle is happening inside a closed system.

If you could find a way to fling the piston backwards as fast as the spring flings it forwards again (kinda like you get in a classic with the bolt rattling around) then you WOULD feel some recoil on the rearward stroke.

 

Anyway, the original point was more that proper recoil is the result of the explosion that launches the projectile in a firearm. You aren't ever going to get that in an airgun of any type since there is no explosive compression caused by the charge detonating.

What you feel in any airgun is just the result of mechanical bits flinging themselves around inside the gun.

[Matthias]

Now im just thinking here... But assuming i have a 6.01 barrel, shouldn't my velocity increase when the temperature drops? Since the whole molecular structure of the barrel is compacting/contracting I "should" see a noticeable increase in velocity shouldn't I?

[TDS]

Now im just thinking here... But assuming i have a 6.01 barrel, shouldn't my velocity increase when the temperature drops? Since the whole molecular structure of the barrel is compacting/contracting I "should" see a noticeable increase in velocity shouldn't I?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Depends how it shrinks in relation to bb's, dont think anyone has ever tested that.

[Matthias]

Well, I would expect the bore to increase in size as the metal "contracts" away from it, i could be wrong though. You might try a refrigerated set of BBs which should be smaller than normal, which would negate the effects of the tightbore to test that out.

[Blake]

No, the bore size decreases as the barrel material gets colder. Heating it will cause it to expand.

Also, it would take a change of 100 degrees C to effect a change of .01mm on a stainless steel barrel like the PDI or Prometheus. So unless you make a habit of playing someplace that goes from freezing to boiling, chances are you don't need to worry about it.

[Matthias]

I would expect, however, the effect to be quite different on whatever type of material is used in a BB.

[Stealthbomber]

What makes you think that your BB wouldn't alter AS WELL as your barrel, due to temperature?

[Matthias]

Before i said you might try refrigerating the BB or even putting it in a freezer so you could have them at different temps,

[scithe]

for the "each action creates an equal and opposite reaction", this, as has been stated, is obviously irrelovent with airsoft guns. so the recoil effect i had in my g-spec could not have been related to that.

 

someone before said that silent dampers and airbrake would decrease this recoil effect... i was using both not to mention that i weighted my g-spec so that it weighs about 10lbs, so there should not be any kick at all, just vibrations as has been stated before.

 

now, it wasnt a large amount of recoil, but it was a firm push backward... it actually kicked more firmly than any gbb except the ae homeland deffender (not harder, just more firmly)

[greg]

I was describing the effect in a pre-cocked ba when fired (as I thought we were on about vsr's), not aeg.

 

& stating 'action etc' as a simplified & easily understandable metaphor.

 

& am stunned that scithe is experiencing 'recoil' in the gun described.

 

At a loss to explain that one. But stranger things have happened.

 

 

Greg.

[Sale]

Plastics usually expand and contract about ten times as much as steel in the same temperature range. (Depending on the exact polymer composition of course.) Making the barrel and BB colder and colder would never cause the gap between the BB and barrel to close.

 

In air guns you can feel some recoil because the piston accelerates forward very rapidly. As a kid I got a deep cut to the corner of my eye from pressing it against the diopter sight without the rubber cup part. There's still a visible scar from it, so don't tell me airguns don't have recoil. These are the 10 Joule kind with quite strong (and heavy) steel pistons, mind you. An APS or VSR with the aluminum pistons and most usually less than 3.8 joules of energy isn't going to kick much at all.

 

As the piston hits the front wall (I.E. Cylinder head), it makes the rifle jump forwards a bit. This is actually why some scopes designed for real rifles break on air rifles: The recoil impulse is reversed, and the scopes aren't designed to handle it. Adding an air brake (or a tightly fitting BB in the barrel) could slow the piston down before it hits the front wall, so the forward jump would be possibly reduced a bit. That would still leave the initial recoil in place, so theoretically you could perceive a bit more recoil as a result. But you'd have to have a really really sensitive shoulder to know.

 

-Sale

[greg]

So there you have it Scithe. Simple really, you've just got a sensitive shoulder!

 

 

Greg.

[DS_n1per]

Just a thought I've seen posts talking about a tight bore pushing the cyinder back and reducing power but logic suggests that the item of least resistance would get pushed further and since the bb would therefore be the item of lest resistance as apposed to the cylinder surely the bb propulsion would be greater ie: more fps..

 

Just a thought !

 

Oh and I know sod all about airsoft - so if I'm wrong , sorry.

[scithe]

So there you have it Scithe.  Simple really, you've just got a sensitive shoulder!

Greg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol, i guess so. it would make the most sense out of all the other theories.

[Matthias]

Plastics usually expand and contract about ten times as much as steel in the same temperature range. (Depending on the exact polymer composition of course.) Making the barrel and BB colder and colder would never cause the gap between the BB and barrel to close.

-Sale

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Im not looking for the gap to close, what I would expect is that, lets say you stuck the BB's in the freezer and they shrunk by .02 mm, and shot it through a 6.01 barrel then you should see a difference in firing that and a normal, unfrozen BB through the 6.01 barrel. Now according to what people in this thread have been saying, the frozen BB should travel with more muzzle velocity than the standard unfrozen BB do to the extra gap between BB and barrel. Just seemed like an interesting test to me.

[fadedcorona]

though the point was from earlier in the post and I'd hate to say it but I'm not about to read 3 pages... Reguarding why .01 barrels have a lower fps than .03 . I don't think it's that the bb can't accelerate that fast. the bb will accelerate almost as fast are you can make it given enough energy in the system if that is the only force acting on it. but remember the air in front of the bb. that air needs to get out of the way and with a tighter barrel it takes longer for the air in front of the bb to more as well cuasing a presure build up in front of the bb. so it's not as much as a limit in acceleration of the bb but it's fluid dynamics effecting that. Also with a smaller barrel it is more likley to rub against the sides inside ther barrrel cuasing more fristion and possibly requiring more hop up to maintain better control.

[scithe]

whats confusing though is that many people noticed an increase in fps with a .01 barrel..... so that is really confusing why some notice a decrease and some notice an increase..... and there doesnt seem to be any pattern or anything that would suggest that they are doing anything different.

[fadedcorona]

haha. there are probably more factors than noted. like cleanliness of the barrel/silicone oil present. BB type hop up, hop up setting, #of bbs trough hop up and probably way more. Either way, I think I may just get a .03 in the end. just because. ha ha

[scithe]

i dunno man, i tested it quite thoroughly for quite a few months both in skirmishes and target shooting. never found any difference in results.

 

but i am going to get a db .01 for my g-spec soon, so will do more tests then.

[hesperos]

yes, it seems like some solid numbers will help this debate out quite a bit.