Seeking cure for the VSR "right hook"

[sirrith]

Its meant to do that. In brand new rifles, the hop rubber still has its original shape, so when its turned off, theres enough space for the bb to roll out, since nothing is blocking the way.

[greg]

Scorp, if the problem wasn't there at the start it is unlikely the barrel. The problems I described were apparent straight away.

 

Bushy, bb's will roll out with hop off, as it's the only thing that keeps 'em in. 6"@10m doesn't sound good, but I've seen worse. Could be the bb's, at 500fps .25's are a little light. What brand are they? How long & what make are the barrels? Has the longer barrel cured the original problem?

 

 

Greg.

[asinapple8805]

you guys are silly. you guys think that it's the aftermarket parts he's put into the gun whe the problem is right there staring you in the face.

 

he wrote "The rocker arm in hop chamber had to be modified to hold a spacer as it originally had two fingers pushing down on the packing. This simply did not give enough pressure to overcome the FPS the rifle puts out."

 

the original hop arm on the VSR with the two point connection should give the vsr AMPLE hop up on lower fps setups. the problem is that you modified this hop arm probably by filing or cutting down the two "finger" points. If you say your bb hooks off to the right then that means that there is more spin being applied to the right hemisphere of the bb as it leaves the barrel causing it to pull right slightly.

 

proof: when you apply pressure directly on the top of the bb, you will see that the bb will pull upward showing you that the bb pulls to the side that the spin is generated. try firing your gun upside down. the pressure is now placed on the bottom of the bb which would cause the bb to seemingly drop off rather quickly. same principle applies when you fire your gun rotating and holding it 90 degrees from level, the bb would hook terribly right or left depending.

 

what i'm trying to say is that the two new pressure points where the hop arm touches the nubbin is not level causing excess pressure to be placed on the right side of the bb more than the left.

 

the whole purpose of the VSR hop arm's two point contact system is that it provides a more stable axis of rotation in comparison to a single point system. a more stable axis of rotation equates to a more consistent backspin which would partially eliminate the horizontal point of impact deviations and slightly decrease the vertial point of impact deviations. ultimately, the best would be a rifled barrel and a bb with a spiral spin that does not rely on backspin for range.

 

think about real guns... as long as you rotate the gun and keep the barrel at the point of origin of rotation, the gun should theoretically hit the same spot everytime assuming everything else constant. sadly such is not true for an airsoft gun that relies on hop up.

 

the second beautiful thing about the VSR is that the amount of total pressure put on the top of the bb is relatively consistent. this lack of variation allows more predictable shots. predictability is a good thing especially if you only have one shot and you have to make it count.

 

because this seems to have been a problem for a while, i'd also change your hop rubber also because chances are that the right side of the hop rubber is worn down more than the left from the uneven pressure.

 

what i did to make more hop up in my VSR is to just wrap the bucking where the arm contacts the rubber with teflon tape. this would cause the bucking to appear "fatter" so when the arm pushes down on the bucking, it would also push down on the teflon tape.

 

don't believe me? try firing your gun but with the gun rotated slightly counter clockwise. you'll see that the bb doesn't hook anymore with the right amount of rotation.

[asinapple8805]

i also forgot to mention that the cuts on the left and right of the barrel match up with walls in the hop up chamber and the hop up chamber is held steady by that big *albatross* block of pot metal that is screwed in by two screws.

 

that big *albatross* block of potmetal is then attached to the reciever by another big *albatross* hex screw, so chances are his barrel isn't misaligned if he screwed down everything snugly.

[sirrith]

you guys are silly.  *snip*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are silly.

He also said:

for about a week after I installed the barrel and packing it was shooting perfectly level and straight. I had a 4in grouping at 250ft every time.

If his hopup arm was improperly modified, then his rifle would NOT have been shooting "perfectly level and straight" for about a week.

[angelmaker]

I think it's the soft type bucking and the lightweight bb.

[sc0rp10n]

Hah! Guess I missed all the fireworks, but as sirrith stated the arm is fine. I used a bench vice to lock the arm and then used a drill press with an angled grinder tip to carve the arm. Trust me there is no variance in the cut.

 

I can rotate the rifle counter-clockwise and it won't change the way it fires. It just goes straight up faster. If I turn the barrel it won't change the way the hop reacts nor will it prove anything. It will just turn the "right hook" into a "vertical hook". Oh and about the rifled barrel idea - think again. Bullets work with the twist generated from a rifle groove because they are in constant contact with the barrel and have an extreme amount of friction placed on their CONE SHAPED surface. Hence if you ever saw a bullet intact after firing you can see "grooves" cut into it's surface. Now I don't need to type out the equations but I think you can imagine how much force it takes to cut channels into a metal surface.

 

You say a BB, a spherical object, would perform better from rifling right? WRONG! You couldn't be more wrong in your logic if you tried. The aerodynamics of a BB are about the same as a greyhound buss doing 75mph on the freeway. A spherical object is subject to ANY force applied to it's surface at ANY point. Thus if you rifled a spherical object as soon as it left the barrel it would spin violently to the side in the direction of it's last "twist" provided by your rifling.

 

And should any of that not make sense then just imagine this. It take us 600fps on a .30g BB to propel it 300ft. The BB is 5.96-5.98mm on average and the bore it travels is 6.01-6.05mm. It takes 600fps to power a BB with a smooth surface down a smooth bore without active friction at all points and near free motion once it leave the barrel with only the backspin working on it.

 

Can you even fathom the amount of chamber pressure it would take to propel a 5.99mm BB down a 6.00mm bore with 100% active friction courtesy of your rifling? I don't think you can otherwise you wouldn't have posted in the first place. Before you lend any more of your advice asinapple8805, go back to physics school and study hard.

 

 

Before anyone else posts anymore PLEASE wait for me to post results from the hard type firefly packing and new H-hop spacers!!

 

Cheers!

 

EDIT - Oh and angelmaker you really ought to read the original posts more carefully. I clearly stated that the same effect is caused with .30g AND .43g(the heaviest plastic round made in 6mm).

[he's in the bushes!!!]

i cant see how a rifled barrel would help seen as if you hold an airsoft barrel up and drop a bb in it falls straight through on a real rifle it doesnt the bullet has to be forced through in order to make it grip the rifling and to spin it

if you rifled an aifsort barrel the bb wouldnt touch the rifling at all certainly not enough for it to produce an equal and consistent spin to make it accurate

 

i put the longer barrel on this seem to of i'mproved it (from what i can tell so far anyway) i just need to crono it now to make sure i'm not above the site limit but i only have .25's anyone know what sort of difference in fps this makes?

[asinapple8805]

let me begin by quoting myself

 

yes i did say

 

ultimately, the best would be a rifled barrel and a bb with a spiral spin that does not rely on backspin for range.

 

but i also said

 

sadly such is not true for an airsoft gun that relies on hop up.

 

it is quite obvious that it would be difficult to apply real gun physics of rifling to an airsoft bb however a manufacturer was able to accomplish this or something similar. Ever heard of the Tanio Koba Hop Twist barrels? the principles behind the hop twist barrel is that the bb would ride on a spiraling puff of air in conjunction with the backspin that is created by the normal hop up. this would allow the bb to travel on an abnormal axis of rotation causing increased range and accuracy on a lower fps gun if tuned correctly.

 

i'm pretty certain that the axis of rotation of the bb when using the hop twist barrel is somewhere between a front-back pole axis and a right-left side pole axis.

 

it would be nearly impossible for an airsoft gun to fire a bb with a perfect spiraling for multiple reasons including the nature of airsoft guns and the nature of a spherical projectile... i'm not arguing with you about that. plus how would you get a bb to rotate on a purely front-back pole axis in a smooth bore barrel? i just stated that theoretically it would be the best however in this case the best is obviously too difficult to obtain... i'm glad we agree.

 

like i said before, it is obvious that your problem is an uneven distribution of contact pressure on the bb which is most likely caused by either your hop rubber, your arm, or both simultaneously. you proved my point when you said

 

If I turn the barrel it won't change the way the hop reacts nor will it prove anything. It will just turn the "right hook" into a "vertical hook"

 

so it is obviously a problem with your hop mechanisms and not your barrel.

 

before you try your firefly "kurage" bucking on your high velocity setup, i'd like to remind you that japanese law requires all airsoft guns to remain under a 328 fps limit (on .2g bbs). Firefly, being a japanese company, has created their buckings under different hardness ratings, soft, extra soft, hard, extra hard (or spicy is the correct term i think). if i remember correctly, the last time i talked to a member of the former killer studio tuning company's official skirmish team, which wasn't long ago, he explained to me that firefly buckings, even the extra spicy ones, aren't made for high velocity applications. by installing a FF bucking, you will see a slight decrease in your fps (maybe about 15 or so depending on setup) and under super high velocity setups, you risk shooting out those little "teeth" that make it special.

 

I was also told that the firefly bucking does not work well as one would assume in conjunction with the h-hop for either AEGs, pistols, or sniper rifles. Ya know, but hey, it's your life and your money. i'd rather spend my money on beer.

 

Edit:

 

Also, just to let you know, i'm here to help. last time i checked, you don't insult people who come to your aid when you ask for help. That just doesn't make sense.

[asinapple8805]

while reading through the topic thoroughly again, i'll try to help the other people who have similar problems.

 

to whoever is claiming that their bbs travel in a spiral path (not rotating spirally, but making an actual loop), try rotating your gun just like i suggested earlier. if there is a point at which you can make your bb fly near perfectly on a vertical path from the POV of the shooter, then it too is a problem with excess pressure being placed on one side more than the other.

 

to the person who claims that bbs roll out of your barrel, such is the case for many guns with the hop up turned off it happens to some gbb pistols and even AEGs. simple fix, turn on the hop a little at least or modify your hop arm so it is always slightly engaged even if the dial is in the "off" position.

 

i might be imagining things but i remember someone saying that they have different fps chronoing with hop all the way on and all the way off. that's because with the hop all the way on, it holds the bb back until the piston is further through it's cycle allowing slightly more pressure to build up behind the bb before the bb is fired. think of it as having your mouth open with your lips puckered and blowing has hard as you can vs. lightly putting a finger in your puckered lips, plugging it, then blowing as hard as you can to shoot your finger from your puckered lips. the initial velocity of the air without your finger there is much less than when your mouth is plugged first.

 

to the other guy's question about heavy bbs for sniping. you would want a heavier bb because it would be affected by the wind a lot less, however the Straight .36gs and the Straight .43gs are only heavy... and nothing else. also remember that bbs, because of their shape, will start to fly out of control at a certain velocity regardless of the "perfectness" of the bb. Ultimately you would want your bbs to be heavy, perfectly round, and consistent in size and weight with every other bb that you are using. i suggest either .29g Maruzen Super Grand Masters, or the Marui perfect .3g. but with too hot of a rifle, even those might be too light.

 

the trick is to match the perfect ammo, for the correct match.

 

i'd also listen to bauer as he runs his own website that is dedicated to airsoft snipers.

[sc0rp10n]

I was not wrong in my approach to the situation, even though the outcome was the above. You again stated rifling on a BB, a spherical object is possible. It's not, It's just not. the BB doesn't travel down the barrel smoothly, it bounces randomly off the surface of the inner barrel. You're welcome to think it doesn't, and I'll be glad to disagree with you.

 

As for Taino Koba barrels, I've worked on quite a few AEGs and GBBs with TK barrel kits. They have no "special" effect on the BB whatsoever when compared to a 6.03mm prometheus or laylax tightbore of the same length.

 

The only barrels I've seen actually shoot farther and straighter then a TK or 6.03mm are the PDI 6.01mm.

 

And thirdly about the FF packings, if you take the finger tips off and leave the v-cut paired with an H-hop white type spacer you can power long distance high fps shots. I have only seen this done, I've not been able to perform the mod myself, but I am eager to try it in case the FF fails on first install.

 

I double checked the depth of the cut on the arm with a micrometer last night, each side was within .01mm of the other. That's no where near enough to effect the Hop this severely.

 

I know you're here to help, It's just a bad habit of mine to viciously attack any misinformation or in this case, "not well phrased" statements in my threads.

 

Oh and that bit about the beer, I only drink the hard stuff

 

Cheers!

[asinapple8805]

i've built 4 VSRs in my time, 2 fully built laylax setups, and 1 fully built PDI setup, and 1 mild PDI setup.

 

i've got the best results with using either the laylax purple packing (it's under the subcompany Nineball or 9ball) or the stock TM hop rubber. I've had a friend use the laylax hop up chamber with great sucess, however i stuck to the stock G-spec unmodified hop arm and the stock g-spec hop unit. All of the full built setups that i tuned were easily able to hit a man sized target at about 300 feet (i used a golf laser range finder) and could range well past 325 feet with the exception of the mild tuned PDI setup.

 

the problem i had with the laylax purple packing was that it was too hard of a rubber to give the required hop without hop modification and tuning. i haven't heard of a laylax soft packing before, but it's been a while since i purchased any new parts for my gun.

 

i've found the stock hop up easy to tune and would recommend it for everyone.

 

scorp, i'm still convinced that it's your modified hop arm. with the two places that you measured it with a mic being so close together, it could still be a possibility. had the two points been an inch apart, i probably wouldn't continue to harass you, but since they are less than a centimeter apart, just the slightest deviation can be the culprit.

 

here is my setup

 

full PDI setup (PDI bore up reciever, Bore up stainless cylinder, stainless bore up cylinder head, bore up vacuum piston, 9mm spring guide, SPR 300% spring, bore up v-trigger)

 

this is an older picture, because since this my second stock was painted a nice woodland camo and texturized.

 

i'm getting about 7xx fps on .2g bbs according to a guarder chrono. the pull is easy enough for me to cock it in prone with my eye in the scope (where xx = 15).

 

[sc0rp10n]

Roger that!

 

That is the exact packing I am using, the purple soft type Laylax/First Factory/Prometheus/Nineball one.

 

Would you happen to know of a place to buy a replacement TM arm for the VSR?

 

Nice barrel by the way, really fits that short style.

[asinapple8805]

i know you can buy entire hop units for the VSR made by TM as a replacement for the old style Pro sniper and realshock versions because they used the old type of arm while the g-spec used the new "innovative" type of arm.

 

the purple packing that you're referring to is actually made of a harder, not softer, rubber. i used it in my super high fps setup because it meant a longer life with a lower chance of the packing tearing and such. a harder rubber also means you need more force to push down on the rubber to get the same amount of hop. this means that you might want to somehow put a spacer between the packing and the hop arm fingers that won't negate the magicalness of the two point hop arm.

 

the bauer mentioned something earlier. you might want to re read his post.

 

it's been a while since i tuned my VSR. i already got it to the point that it's not worth the countless more hours to get that extra 10 more feet of range. ever since i got my 2 systema PTWs, i only use the sniper on occasions like 1) to hurt people that don't call hits when i play public games 2) to impress people with range/accuracy/power 3) to punch right through the wall of empty green gas cans in a single shot.

[sc0rp10n]

Well no surprise there, ask anyone who knows me, I don't even bother with my VSR unless it's to do options 1 and 2 around here. As for the softer bit I am using the prometheus equivalent in all my AEGs so I only assumed since it was the same company it would be the same "soft" material.

 

Asinapple8805 you are quite the refreshing perspective on here. Thanks for the ideas and I can't wait to post results from my firefly packing as well as possibly cutting the barrel down.

[greg]

The nineball hop is a bit 'yesterday'.

 

Fire fly 'v' is the way to go.

 

Koba have stated that the 'rifling' reduces friction/contact points in the barrel on the travelling bb in an effort to reduce internal bouncing & therefore improve accuracy. Nothing to do with inducing spin.

 

Traditional, shaped bullets & pellets are spun to keep their orientation the same (basic aerodynamics) & help keep trajectory constant for as long as possible to help with range & accuracy.

 

This is not applicable with a sphere, as, whatever it's orientation, it will still show the same drag characteristics. It's a sphere!

 

The only effect spinning has is to reduce/increase air pressure on opposing sides.

 

 

Greg.

[sirrith]

before you try your firefly "kurage" bucking on your high velocity setup *snip*

Sorry, but the guy you talked to seems to be wrong. I'm using a firefly SOFT v-hop bucking in my 2J gspec, and its holding up fine. before that I had the nineball purple one, and quite frankly, I'd never go back to it after having used the firefly v-hop.

And FYI, laylax (nineball) is also a Japanese company. So is PDI. Yet they both produce parts allowing for upgrades far over the Japanese limit of 0.89J

 

I don't know who told you this about the buckings, but the firefly v-hop is just short of amazing when used with the dual pronged arm that the vsr hop unit has. I have a TM M4S with a big out H hop nub installed, running over forum limits, and although I did notice a slight difference between before installing the H hop, I noticed more of a difference when comparing my purple nineball bucking with the firefly bucking in my vsr.

[SomeRandomWhiteGuy]

Although I imagine it's different when the gun is firing as those high velocities, I've found that turning the hop up just a little too high can cause a hook without causing the traditional "overhop" flight pattern.

[sc0rp10n]

Alright gents,

 

Nothing but bad news.

 

Ordered and installed a fresh hop arm with tabs intact - didn't change a thing!

Ordered and installed the Spicy hard type Firefly - didn't change a thing!

Ordered and used fresh Straight .43g AND KSC .30g - didn't change a thing!

Cut barrel down to 500mm from 550mm - didn't change a thing!

 

So I give up, she's officially for sale as of this post. Anyone that makes an offer can receive a full parts list in PM if they want, I'm not looking for much maybe $400. I will also consider trades for TM M14s, SL-9SDs, and any other LONG barreled DMRs.

 

Thanks for all the help, but I'm just not in the mood to own a VSR that can't kill at 320ft anymore. Since I have an m4 that can kill at 230ish

[Travis_2]

How about barrel spacers?

[sc0rp10n]

How about barrel spacers?

 

 

Already have them installed, the deepfire set.

[SomeRandomWhiteGuy]

I just realized something when I was cleaning out my BAR-10, but perhaps the hop up sleeve is turned slightly in it's housing....I'm no expert, but it seems like it might be something to look into

[fal]

The nineball hop is a bit 'yesterday'.

 

Fire fly 'v' is the way to go.

 

Koba have stated that the 'rifling' reduces friction/contact points in the barrel on the travelling bb in an effort to reduce internal bouncing & therefore improve accuracy. Nothing to do with inducing spin.

 

Traditional, shaped bullets & pellets are spun to keep their orientation the same (basic aerodynamics) & help keep trajectory constant for as long as possible to help with range & accuracy.

 

This is not applicable with a sphere, as, whatever it's orientation, it will still show the same drag characteristics. It's a sphere!

 

The only effect spinning has is to reduce/increase air pressure on opposing sides.

 

 

Greg.

 

Do you/Have you used Firefly hopup on your vsr?

 

Nineball hopup is nothing of yesterday. It's the hardest VSR hopup rubber todate and still is very valid candidate. Bewarned, Firefly hopup is very soft and not really made anything for high velocity setup nor anything heavier than .25g bb. Accuracy was also erratic when much hopup is applied more or so than the others.

 

It can't pull enough hopup even on .28g bb. And that's for the gun shooting 4xxfps. If the gun shoots 1J, there is no way in the hell it will get good hopup while retaining good accuracy, unless you are using like .2g BBs.

 

If anyone planning to use heavier than .25g, go with either KM RH55 or Nineball. Mind you, KM RH55 is also quite soft, although it's still harder than "Extra hard" Firefly hopup.

 

Firefly hopup is definitely not a way to go.

 

 

And remember folks, more hopup you apply the more accuracy you lose. Also don't use Digicon straight BBs. Especialy graphite coated ones. They are ###### compare to SGM .28g or TM .3g. Good alternative is SIIS .28g/.33g, which I personaly use, although it's a bit too soft for my liking.

[sirrith]

Nineball hopup is nothing of yesterday. It's the hardest VSR hopup rubber todate and still is very valid candidate. Bewarned, Firefly hopup is very soft and not really made anything for high velocity setup nor anything heavier than .25g bb. Accuracy was also erratic when much hopup is applied more or so than the others.

 

It can't pull enough hopup even on .28g bb. And that's for the gun shooting 4xxfps. If the gun shoots 1J, there is no way in the hell it will get good hopup while retaining good accuracy, unless you are using like .2g BBs.

Nonsense. If you actually bothered to read my previous post, you would know that I've been using a firefly SOFT hopup (yes, soft, not hard or spicy) in my 2J vsr (thats around 450fps) with .3g and heavier. I get enough hop on 12 clicks with .3 and 14 with .36 washed. My rubber is still perfect, and gives BETTER accuracy than my previous nineball rubber.

I'm sure other snipers on this forum will agree with me.

 

 

[sc0rp10n]

Quick update!! She's not for sale, she's fixed! I've no idea what I did different this time, nor how it happened but I just put 10 consecutive shots into my 6in target at my range's 275ft marker. I'm hoping this will last, or I'll be in the market for a SL-9SD real soon.

 

My new setup is the following

 

Custom cut 499mm PSS10 6.03mm

Deepfire barrel spacer set

Firefly spicy hard packing

TM hop arm

TM hop assembly

.43g BBs