Retailer Suspended and Game Site Cautioned

[kerberos_]

I can't disagree there Pablo

 

I'm not a lawyer and I'm no English language scholar, but I guess my main issue is that the UKARA sheets/advice are not entirely clear and maybe this has been a significant contributor to all this.

 

In other words, maybe they should hold their hands up and take part blame. People would have far more respect for them (ok, witch hunts and slaggings will happen). The 'punishment' is excessive because of these factors.

 

The UKARA should make things VERY VERY clear before issuing processes and then suspending small businesses for 3 months.

[snorkelman]

The government requirement is that the purchaser be a member of a recognised club. Period.

 

The governemt recomendation is that the ABA, having set up a scheme (which as yet does not exist) will ensure new memberships ie those after the act comes into force, be restricted to folks who have played three within two.

 

Restrict membership before the first? Or place similar requirement on them - not a lot of point given anyone who had the nonce to join before the 1st of October could have just filled their boots with a big cartload of RIFs before ther first of October anyway.

 

 

UKARAS requirement for sites that sign up to its scheme is that new members are not provided membership unless they have completed '3 over two'

 

UKARAS requirement is greater than the government requirement/recommendation and thus is perfectly legal (ie they arent offerign registration for players who play once when the government actually states four times in a week and twice on sundays)

 

It really comes down to wether NCIS had a clear understanding of what the new in that requirement refered to - all new/existing members they already had or simply new members they allowed to join their site after the 1st of Oct when the VCRA came into effect

 

As Iv'e said before given the amount of emphasis on "last chance to buy in unrestricted manner before the 1st" "pay before the first and you can still receive the item and avoid the new requirements" etc is it really that much of a stretch to assume NCIS could have been confused about which date UKARAs proposals for the 'offering of new memberships' were actually to come into effect, and be a retroactive pre october 1st as well as post october the first requirement?

[{MIA}Gmac]

Gmac

 

Did you 'go after' or investigate those who publicly offered similar?

 

Surely UKARA were aware of LW's offer prior to acceptance of them on the UKARA or before the last week?

 

Did UKARA just accept any retailer to sign up with no 'background checks' or anything?

 

It just feel that the UKARA as the forefront of this, also has responsibilities to it's people and subsequently both, parties (retailers and UKARA) their people - the airsofters.

 

The problem with Land Warrior is nothing to do with their pre 1st October Scheme to join customers to NCIS as members, although it seem a pointless offer by them and NCIS.

I think if you asked the HO whether being made an honorary member of a remote Airsoft site made you eligible for a retailer to use the defence to sell to you, I think the answer would undoubtedly be no.

 

UKARA makes checks to the best of their ability to ensure Airsoft Retailers are bona fidi before accepting them, the current waiting list is the region of 23.

 

Retailers cannot verify a player form only a Game site can, therefore retailers can offer what they like, in the end its for the UKARA registered game site to approved and confirm that a player has fulfilled the UKARA criteria, they are taking the responsibility.

 

The investigation was not due to any previous offers made by Land Warrior it was because players had come forward and offered information which was confirmed as being true.

There was no sting in this I think they were more concerned as to whether they were really listed properly on the data base, which of course they were not and therefore will have to reapply, a waste of time for them and UKARA.

 

"Were the registered sites not told (maybe it was bad grammar from the UKARA) they could go ahead and upload information without a stamp, due to admin and Royal Mail delays?"

No we have never ( to my knowledge) said that, Sites cannot upload information anyway, they could have had their players fill out their forms with the other details, but they would need to hold the forms until they could stamp them and return them to there players to post to a retailer.

 

A retailer should not accept or enter the information from a Players Application form if it has not been stamped with the site UKARA Stamp and completed correctly.

[greebo_Brat]

The '3/2' reccomendation only applied to site membership following 1st October.

 

There is nothing in any of the government guidelines to state otherwise.

 

Tom.

 

UKARA isn't a govt entity and can put what ever regulations it deems sensible to it's members and registered game sites. Whether or not us as players or site owners agree with UKARA on what is sensible or not is another matter, UKARA isn't mandatory by law (although if the majority of retailers demand UKARA registration before selling RIFs it will become a defacto mandatory registration).

 

So yes, for a player to be registered with UKARA the 3/2 reccomendation applied prior to the 1st of October (note, UKARA registration for a player, not site membership, site membership doesn't automatically mean UKARA registration from what I've seen).

[tom_chant_uk]

UKARA isn't a govt entity and can put what ever regulations it deems sensible to it's members and registered game sites. Whether or not us as players or site owners agree with UKARA on what is sensible or not is another matter, UKARA isn't mandatory by law (although if the majority of retailers demand UKARA registration before selling RIFs it will become a defacto mandatory registration).

 

So yes, for a player to be registered with UKARA the 3/2 reccomendation applied prior to the 1st of October (note, UKARA registration for a player, not site membership, site membership doesn't automatically mean UKARA registration from what I've seen).

 

I've already covered this point in my post #174.

 

Tom.

[Xaccers]

I can't disagree there Pablo

 

I'm not a lawyer and I'm no English language scholar, but I guess my main issue is that the UKARA sheets/advice are not entirely clear and maybe this has been a significant contributor to all this.

 

In other words, maybe they should hold their hands up and take part blame. People would have far more respect for them (ok, witch hunts and slaggings will happen). The 'punishment' is excessive because of these factors.

 

The UKARA should make things VERY VERY clear before issuing processes and then suspending small businesses for 3 months.

 

Bovine excriment.

Sorry, are you a UKARA registered retailer or site owner kerberos?

If you were then you'd have the information and the contact details if even then you couldn't work out what the requirements were for UKARA membership, they're not exactly complicated.

LW with NCIS tried and succeeded in getting people onto the UKARA database against UKARA's regulations with NO attempt to ensure they were even airsofters!

As such they have been rightly punished, if a little leniently.

 

When this first was queried on this board, LW started out by claiming it was for "local repeat customers only" which it blatantly isn't, and when questioned further for clarification admitted that people who haven't attended NCIS from all over the country were being offered membership to be added onto the UKARA database.

If LW didn't suspect that what they were doing was dodgy, then why the need to claim it was for "local repeat customers only" when the fact is it was being offered to anyone who bought a gun from them, airsofter or not.

 

 

[greendragon]

The problem with Land Warrior is nothing to do with their pre 1st October Scheme to join customers to NCIS as members, although it seem a pointless offer by them and NCIS.

I think if you asked the HO whether being made an honorary member of a remote Airsoft site made you eligible for a retailer to use the defence to sell to you, I think the answer would undoubtedly be no.

 

UKARA makes checks to the best of their ability to ensure Airsoft Retailers are bona fidi before accepting them, the current waiting list is the region of 23.

 

Retailers cannot verify a player form only a Game site can, therefore retailers can offer what they like, in the end its for the UKARA registered game site to approved and confirm that a player has fulfilled the UKARA criteria, they are taking the responsibility.

 

The investigation was not due to any previous offers made by Land Warrior it was because players had come forward and offered information which was confirmed as being true.

There was no sting in this I think they were more concerned as to whether they were really listed properly on the data base, which of course they were not and therefore will have to reapply, a waste of time for them and UKARA.

 

"Were the registered sites not told (maybe it was bad grammar from the UKARA) they could go ahead and upload information without a stamp, due to admin and Royal Mail delays?"

No we have never ( to my knowledge) said that, Sites cannot upload information anyway, they could have had their players fill out their forms with the other details, but they would need to hold the forms until they could stamp them and return them to there players to post to a retailer.

 

A retailer should not accept or enter the information from a Players Application form if it has not been stamped with the site UKARA Stamp and completed correctly.

 

 

so would it not have been much better for everyone involved if somebody from UKARA not a million miles away from LW had phoned/emailed/pm,'d him etc and said something along the lines of look mate but your not aloud to provide membership to UKARA for players, that can only be done through a UKARA registerd skirmish site, if anybody wants to get there memebership to UKARA could you point them to said UKARA registerd skirmish site or sites. Then this matter could have been better dealt with, mistakes are going to happen due to the scheme being in its infancy and you cant tell me for one single minute that other UKARA retailers havent made mistakes wether knowingly or otherwise when it comes to "registering players" because at the end of the day they have buisness's to run and livings to be made. Instead what has happened is basically a conflict of interests between retailers almost resulting in one of the most helpfull retailers nearly being put out of buisness.

 

[rolling-thunder]

I doesn't matter what rules have been broken or who by.This is one case where it could have been dealt with an inquiry to the concerned parties,a written warning issued that they were in contravention of UKARA rules & given an opportunity to rectify the situation in a civilised manner.If the concerned parties made no attempt to fall into line with UKARAs rules then stronger action could have been taken against the retailer involved.This didn't happen & is beginning to smell of a business decision rather than one of a respectable group of retailers out to protect all of our backsides & the sport of Airsoft?

An even handed approach should be given in these early days & a punishment that can be escalated over time to discourage retailers from stepping out of line{if that is what happened in this case?}.Guidence rather than punishment should be the first recourse & i hope in future that LWA will be allowed to put people forwards for verification,after all they have admitted that they are wiser after the fact & i don't see them doing it again for fear of the punishments.

[kerberos_]

Gmac - again, thanks for the response.

 

One more Q - how should I, as someone running a site, validate (what is the criteria) for grandfathering players.

 

Bovine excriment.

Sorry, are you a UKARA registered retailer or site owner kerberos?

If you were then you'd have the information and the contact details if even then you couldn't work out what the requirements were for UKARA membership, they're not exactly complicated.

 

LW with NCIS tried and succeeded in getting people onto the UKARA database against UKARA's regulations with NO attempt to ensure they were even airsofters!

 

As such they have been rightly punished, if a little leniently.

 

When this first was queried on this board, LW started out by claiming it was for "local repeat customers only" which it blatantly isn't, and when questioned further for clarification admitted that people who haven't attended NCIS from all over the country were being offered membership to be added onto the UKARA database.

If LW didn't suspect that what they were doing was dodgy, then why the need to claim it was for "local repeat customers only" when the fact is it was being offered to anyone who bought a gun from them, airsofter or not.

 

Thanks for dropping to levels of "bovine excriment" - bravo.

 

I don't OWN the site, but I do co-run it and are working on being registered. Hence why I'm quite interested - not here just to slate those around me, or throw rotten veg at anyone.

 

My involvement with anything to do with the bill prior to being passed is irrelevant. Just stop coming across as one of these pompous-posters who feels the need to talk down to people. It puts people off reading forums.

 

I've posted parts of documents the UKARA made available and it's certainly not clear. If it's clear to you, bully and good show. Perhaps you're in the wrong profession.

 

"local repeat customers only" yea, maybe they went to the same grammar school as the ...

 

 

[Xaccers]

Gmac - again, thanks for the response.

 

One more Q - how should I, as someone running a site, validate (what is the criteria) for grandfathering players.

 

3 skirmishes in at least 2 months.

Perhaps this link will be of use to you, maybe you missed it on UKARA's page, at the top, amongst all the other links http://www.ukara.org.uk/contact

 

 

Thanks for dropping to levels of "bovine excriment" - bravo.

 

You talk it, I'll point it out.

 

I don't OWN the site, but I do co-run it and are working on being registered. Hence why I'm quite interested - not here just to slate those around me, or throw rotten veg at anyone.

 

My involvement with anything to do with the bill prior to being passed is irrelevant. Just stop coming across as one of these pompous-posters who feels the need to talk down to people. It puts people off reading forums.

 

I've posted parts of documents the UKARA made available and it's certainly not clear. If it's clear to you, bully and good show. Perhaps you're in the wrong profession.

 

I'm sorry you've not been able to find/use the contact link on UKARA's page to clarify any matters you are having difficulty understanding.

Hopefully you'll find the link I've supplied of use.

 

 

[Maveric]

This didn't happen & is beginning to smell of a business decision rather than one of a respectable group of retailers.

 

Pritty much sums it up in my mind. and kudos to you for being the first to say it.

[Marlowe]

It appears that any productivity left in this thread has been all but expended, sadly.

 

I'll leave this thread open for another few posts, but should they appear to be just more people wanting to beat their chests, I'll consign this to history. CHeers.

[Xaccers]

I doesn't matter what rules have been broken or who by.This is one case where it could have been dealt with an inquiry to the concerned parties,a written warning issued that they were in contravention of UKARA rules & given an opportunity to rectify the situation in a civilised manner.If the concerned parties made no attempt to fall into line with UKARAs rules then stronger action could have been taken against the retailer involved.This didn't happen & is beginning to smell of a business decision rather than one of a respectable group of retailers out to protect all of our backsides & the sport of Airsoft?

An even handed approach should be given in these early days & a punishment that can be escalated over time to discourage retailers from stepping out of line{if that is what happened in this case?}.Guidence rather than punishment should be the first recourse & i hope in future that LWA will be allowed to put people forwards for verification,after all they have admitted that they are wiser after the fact & i don't see them doing it again for fear of the punishments.

 

What do you mean it doesn't matter what rules have been broken?

Why can people not understand the serious implications of what LW and NCIS did?

Adding people to the database who are not airsofters and then through that allowing them to be illegally sold guns is not a small or tivial issue!

 

[rolling-thunder]

What do you mean it doesn't matter what rules have been broken?

Why can people not understand the serious implications of what LW and NCIS did?

Adding people to the database who are not airsofters and then through that allowing them to be illegally sold guns is not a small or tivial issue!

Contraventions need to be addressed & stopped from happening again.I do not mean to trivialise what happened but a fair & even handed approach that is sustainable needs to be implimented otherwise those that wish to weild power will find that their big stick is broken.A healthy dose of respect has been lost for UKARA because of the overkill they chose to use.

Yes it sends out a messege but at the same time it deprives the community of a respected retailer.If UKARA{& any other body that may surface} wants to be respected then it really ought to look at how it deals with its own.The way LWA has been treated in this case brings to mind a shoal of Piranha feeding from a wounded member.

We need a unified stand with a respected body who through the respect they have can influance public perception of airsoft by gaining the respect of Government bodies.At the moment if UKARA garner anymore respect in a similar manner it's going to end up with only one retailer being able to have a say,may be that's the idea.

I really hope i'm proved wrong but early indications point to an internal melt down sooner or later & i don't want to see the community squabbling amongst itself.This thread;to date,has been quite good natured really & it has been helpful in understanding the way the VCR Bill is expected to work for us so i don't want to see the thread closed

[kerberos_]

Dear gosh ...

 

It does NOT mention the 'grandfather' rule, Xaccers. This is a totally different situation and having READ and heard one of the retailers say that grandfathering was indeed 'ok' (and I can tell you they basically allowed the site to decide judge who they'd process and who they wouldn't) then I'd prefer a clear sentence or two telling me what constitutes it.

 

Xaccers, Please don't answer unless you actually are part of the UKARA and not just some forum-dwelling troll.

 

If the answer is "well, prior to the 1st October, we'd like these people to have played 3 times in no less than 2 months" then that's what should be said. But that is certainly not what I was told and read.

[kerberos_]

What do you mean it doesn't matter what rules have been broken?

Why can people not understand the serious implications of what LW and NCIS did?

Adding people to the database who are not airsofters and then through that allowing them to be illegally sold guns is not a small or tivial issue!

 

No - they were airsofters were they not?

[Xaccers]

No - they were airsofters were they not?

 

ANYONE WHO BOUGHT FROM LW BEFORE 1ST OCTOBER WAS GIVEN NCIS MEMBERSHIP AND NO QUESTIONING OF THEM BEING AN AIRSOFTER OR NOT TOOK PLACE!

 

Surely that's not too hard to understand?

 

 

As for respected retailer, should you really respect a retailer that puts profit ahead of the safety of airsoft? I certainly don't.

 

[{MIA}Gmac]

A healthy dose of respect has been lost for UKARA because of the overkill they chose to use.

 

Over kill would have been to just chuck Land Warrior out, which due to the code of conduct they signed was the correct penalty.

 

 

This didn't happen & is beginning to smell of a business decision rather than one of a respectable group of retailers.

 

I am sorry to if it might disappoint you but the only business part of this decision was to protect the other 22 retailers who currently have access to the database.

 

What I am please to note in this is, that even if a false entree is entered it can be traced back to the perpetrator.

I don't know the legalities but I would hope this would mean liability might also be shared or transferred to the original source, should such data result in a prosecution.

 

And that be a lesson to us all

[kerberos_]

I didn't ask about that situation.

 

I am asking for clarity on grey area -

 

It is expected that in order to differentiate the casually interested from the committed airsoft skirmisher, that sites will maintain a minimum standard with regards to new players. UKARA will require that any site applying to register under the scheme should ensure that a new entrant into airsoft should play a minimum of three times in a period of not less that two months before being offered membership of a site.

 

New players. New players.

 

I want to know about 'old players' or more so those who DID skirmish before the bill kicked in.

 

LW seem to have the same understanding like a good few had - if you were a skirmisher before the 1st (argue about what constitutes that til the coos come hame all ye like), then you were exempt from having to prove anything. You were most likely given membership to a site. You could say if you purchased prior to the 1st (RIFs, ammo, mags, batteries), that would give a wee bitty indication you were a skirmisher.

 

But they were skirmishers, were the not?

 

Maybe it was all just a cunning plan and all that jizz.

[Xaccers]

LW seem to have the same understanding like a good few had - if you were a skirmisher before the 1st (argue about what constitutes that til the coos come hame all ye like), then you were exempt from having to prove anything. You were most likely given membership to a site. You could say if you purchased prior to the 1st (RIFs, ammo, mags, batteries), that would give a wee bitty indication you were a skirmisher.

 

But they were skirmishers, were the not?

 

Maybe it was all just a cunning plan and all that jizz.

 

For crying out loud!

Why is it so hard to understand?

Just because someone buys a gun, a mag, some ammo, does not mean they skirmish!

Loads of people have posted in the VCR section moaning that they never have and never will skirmish, some because of disabilities, and as a consiquence, selling to them is illegal.

As they can't/won't skirmish, they can't adhere to the UKARA requirements to be added to their database.

LW along with NCIS abused their access to the database and added people who should not have been added.

You say you co-run a site? How exactly if you are having difficulty understanding the legal concept of the defence and requirements to be covered?

Have your marshalls had CRBCs completed if you allow under 18's to skirmish?

If your partner in business manages all that, then I suggest you leave UKARA registration to them.

[{MIA}Gmac]

I want to know about 'old players' or more so those who DID skirmish before the bill kicked in.

 

LW seem to have the same understanding like a good few had - if you were a skirmisher before the 1st (argue about what constitutes that til the coos come hame all ye like), then you were exempt from having to prove anything. You were most likely given membership to a site. You could say if you purchased prior to the 1st (RIFs, ammo, mags, batteries), that would give a wee bitty indication you were a skirmisher.

 

But they were skirmishers, were the not?

 

Maybe it was all just a cunning plan and all that jizz.

 

I think that if you were a regular player using the 3/2 rule at a Airsoft Gaming Site with PLI prior to 1st October then you have fulfilled the governments requirements to be a "Skirmisher", but that status would only be acceptable if the games site operator was 100% sure that this was true by previous game site membership, or previously signed waivers etc and you were over 18 and could prove it.

 

The previous sale of Airsoft equipment or parts is not any criteria to accept anybody as an Airsoft Skirmisher.

As a retailer prior to 1st October I have sold to police etc. for personal target shooting etc and they would not classify as "Skirmisher" and would not be able to purchase post 1st October.

Therefore no retailer could just use his previous list of remote sales to ID eligibility of an Airsoft player to purchase RiF's ( TV and Film, etc. is a different matter)

[cazboab]

UKARA has blocked Land Warrior airsoft from using the database for 3 months and from entering new members to the database permanently. While I'm not entirely convinced that blocking the use of the database is correct in ANY circumstances, or that Land Warrior have been given ample opportunity to defend themselves, informing the community of this sanction or any future sanctions is the right thing to do- though possibly it could be left to the retailer themselves to announce and then after 24 or 48 hours (or with the retailer's consent) a UKARA representative could do so should the retailer refuse.

 

Since the only thing that's gone on since Marlowe warned of chest beating is indeed thus, I'm locking this, should a UKARA or Land Warrior representative have anything pertinent to ad I'll re-open in order for that to happen.

[Pablo]

So, just using me as an example for a moment:

 

I play every month at a local UKARA registered site where the games are run by my local UKARA airsoft retailer. They know I've skirmished there regularly for 2 years. I'm guessing that makes me a candidate for grandfathering, right?

 

Sorry, Caz was locking as I typed. Gmac, if you pm me the naswer yay or nay I'll post it.

 

EDIT: Response from Gmac...

 

Yes in my opinion that would, but I still would not consider it a right, it would be up to the discretion of the game site operator who in the end, if your using the Grandfathering to apply to join the UKARA database, is taking the responsibility from UKARAs point of view.