Retailer Suspended and Game Site Cautioned

[jailhouse]

After having read this thread very carefully, the point still remains, that the following apply:

1. UKARA are the "self imposed" defining body of Airsoft. This action has gone someway to protecting our sport, but is still a minefield of yet undiscovered errors.

 

2. It had been stated well before the implementation of the UKARA Db, that airsofters travelled to varying sites around the country (as i personally do with work, and having family in Burry Port Wales and Dumfries in Scotland) take my kit with me to try and "get a quick game in" with family. I have never taken out membership at these sites, i paid a day walk on fee, so for the UKARA to state it is not likely players will travel this far to play is very short sighted.

 

3. Playes DO NOT have to play a recommended number of games at a site (under UK law) this is a recommendation put forward by UKARA, and adopted by many sites. My personal feeling is that this opens up the question of exploitation of a particular cause, rather than a genuine administrative procedure.

 

4. Registration is not compulsary for the UKARA Db, it is an option allowing you to buy from UKARA verified retailers, and to be particularly frank, there are still retailers and shops where RIFs can be purchased. These owners are willing to take the risk, fair do's to them if that is the action they wish to take, seeing large super markets doing the same.

 

I personally disagree with the public announcement by UKARA citing LW. This smacks of a propoganda campaign stating, "Look, we are prepared to take action". I am sure the press would love to see this infringement floating around the internet, especially the hysteria stirring gutter press. Corruption in new "gun legislation" springs to mind. If a retailer or site are found culpable of a violation this should be handled internally both for the benefit of the sport and the UKARA as a whole.

 

jh

[snorkelman]

Distance thing is just one of the issues - if UKARA want to treat everyone as under supicion if address is further than X miles form site they registered at the can knock themselves out but I trust they do so even handedly and contact ALL concerned. Swiping every entry off when only having confirmed with some would be presumptious.

 

Secondly read the regs and check the date those regs come into effect. Now show me anywhere in the regs it states what the criteria for membership of a skirmishing site has to be prior to the 1st of October

 

Allowing folks who haven't skirmished at your site to become members of it is kinda silly but up till 1st October there was nothing stated or even suggested in law to prevent just that. In 1934 prequalification for a driving licence was introduced in the form of a driving test (initially voluntary, compulsory by mid 1935) prior to that you just bought one.

 

No one with a pre April 1st 1934 driving licence was required to submit to the new test. Likewise no one with an existing driving licence gained under one level of test stringency has ever been required to resit each time a new harder test was introduced. The new laws were not retrospective and neither is this one.

 

Now you can argue that offering memberships like that makes a mockery of the spirit of the law and I agree 101 percent but its the governments job to ensure that what they intend actually ends up down on paper in black and white.

 

Folks retaining ownership of RIFs bought pre October 1st could also be argued as not really in spirit of 'RIFs should only be accessible to those with a need for them in way of skirmishing' etc. Likewise folks retaning ownership of RIFs bought AFTER 1st October who decide to give up skirmishing - when they're only right to buy them was conditional on them having such a use for them.

 

and of course the daddy of them all that is within UKARAS control and is taking place after 1st of October - folks allowed to remain on their database once placed there, folks who they will happily sell RIFs to with zero nada confirmation that they continue to engage in the activities that got them on that list in the first place ...provided they buy RIFs from a UKARA retailer on a 12 monthly basis. Wheres the 'spirit of the law' in that?

 

The ideal solution? no one anywhere in the country got onto the database without three post october 1st skirmishes under their belt Course that wouldnt have been ideal for... yeps UKARA retailers who couldnt have sold a single RIF during that period.

[Leadmill]

I believe it is a mistake to allow a trade organisation to forfill the role of airsofts governing body. I believe there is scope for conflict of interest. Naming and shaming in public is not the best way to go about resolving this situation. I am not UKARA registered and will continue not to be as its clear that control and profit now appear to be primary motives for the organistion.

[Manxmadman]

I feel the ideal situation, like snorkelman, would have been to set up the database but not allow any entries into until 2month period had passed, which would have allowed plenty of time for site stamps to have been order, manufactured and sent out to the relevant sites, and would have allowed for any potential delays, which in this case happened to be the many postal strikes up and down the country. Along with this retailers, site owners and members of UKARA would have been able to sit down, all look over the legislation and raise any potential questions they may have had. Of course the problem with this situation is that it would make life harder on the retailers as selling RIF's in this two month period would become a very risky business, although the other option would have been to have this system running 2 months ahead of the scheduled commencement date, so that as soon as 1st October came around, sites were all armed with the information and stamps to 'officially' verify players memberships.

 

I, myself, am in the situation of the Uni student living in halls. In fact I'm in Edinburgh so NCIS Airsoft will be becoming my local airsoft site after X-mas once I have my gear sorted and such, and so the issue of distance occurs here as well, seeing as I actually live on the Isle Of Man and so as posted on behalf of the UKARA I would be living at such a distance that would make it 'unlikely' for me to skirmish at NCIS, I mean I'd have to cross the Irish sea and then get myself from Liverpool up to Edinburgh, which would seem like too much hassle on the face of it, where as in actual fact I'm living within almost walking distance of the site so it is perfectly plausible for me to skirmish there.

 

In the case of UKARA being run by retailers, and therefore opening up the issue of trying to stifle competition by imposing such restrictions, I would say that unfortunately thats how the system is currently being run and people may just have to, for the time being, accept this as the situation, although this case does make many suspicious.

[Xaccers]

What's with the suggestion or belief that UKARA are an airsoft governing body? Where did that come from?

They're no such thing, nor have I seen anything to suggest they claim to be.

They are an association for airsoft retailers.

The UKARA database is simply to protect UKARA retailers, so that retailers can sell with the knowledge that they are selling while under the defence, ie not to collectors or chavs who've just bought in the past.

 

The purpose of grandfathering was to enable people who've already met the 3 skirmishes in at least 2 months requirement to be added to the UKARA database straight away so that they can continue to purchase.

 

Having someone sign up for site membership without them actually attending the site, simply so you can continue to sell them RIFs is an abuse of that system.

Say a chav bought from LW, they'd be able to continue buying - should the airsoft community be happy with that? I certainly wouldn't be. Any RIFs they bought which were used in a crime would be traced back to UKARA, and show that the airsoft industry isn't responsible, thus likely incur stricter legislation, very strict if the Sun runs headlines "Replica's still readily available"

Likewise, a paraplegic collector could have taken advantage of LW's abuse of the system, and continued collecting. Imagine if they bought a gun from Z1, then during transit, the package was dropped and split open, as has happened several times in the past. The alarm bells are sounded, police are informed, they visit the purchaser (as has happened several times before) and query how a paraplegic is being sold airsoft guns. Z1 get investigated, they're covered because they relied on the UKARA database, so they took reasonable steps, UKARA get investigated, the abuse comes to light, again showing that the airsoft industry isn't responsible enough so stricter legislation is brought in.

Some people don't appear to realise how serious this issue is!

 

This issue first came to my knowledge when a regular at my site told everyone "If you buy from LW, they're doing an offer where you get free NCIS membership and UKARA registration" considering he's from he south of England, my alarm bells started ringing.

Had he got it wrong?

So I started http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...t=0&start=0

LW posted saying "The NCIS Membership was intended for our repeat local customers."

I queried that if someone from the south coast was being offered NCIS and grandfathering, was it a technical error, as they're obviously not a local customer (one would assume by local customer, it is meant to be local customers we know are airsofters, not just anyone who's walked in and bought before).

LW responded that they would be given NCIS membership, and the regular does indeed have NCIS UKARA membership which he now hopes will be recinded thanks to the UKARA investigation.

So it appears UKARA have spotted something dodgy, such as a NCIS member who lives 300 miles etc away, contacted that member and asked "When did you last play at NCIS?" and had a response along the lines of "Never, I just bought from LW and got grandfathered so I can now continue to buy"

Phoned a few more NCIS members not from Scotland, and recieved similar replies.

Then, most importantly and impressive, they actually took action.

[mannequin skywalker]

MY question is when any body criticises the omnipitent one the thread is locked out,everybody has an opinion,i think this board is becoming like so many others with mods thinking they are gods

 

this board is being ruined by power mad mods and its a shame as its one of the best ones out there

[BAw BAg]

I would like to add that myself and a fellow player just arrived back from a game last week and we traveld over 400miles to Cerberus and had the time of our lives over a full weekend including night games I and my friend will travel the length of the country to find the best sites with the best role plays we are also members of NCIS from Scotland

[T3CH]

MY question is when any body criticises the omnipitent one the thread is locked out,everybody has an opinion,i think this board is becoming like so many others with mods thinking they are gods

 

this board is being ruined by power mad mods and its a shame as its one of the best ones out there

 

It was stated several times that any 'mud slinging' would get it closed, then folk came on and basically said 'UKARA ARE A BUNCH OF KNOBS' along with intimations of personal agendas (in this and other threads). That's what got the thread locked before and I imagine any repeat of it will do the same.

 

I think that the first offender caught out (either by an accident/oversight, or deliberately circumventing the rules) HAD to be stamped on harshly to provide an example to those within, and more specifically OUTSIDE the sport. We, as a sport, HAVE to self regulate, and self regulate firmly and effectively, or the government will do it for us. Does anyone really want that?

[snakedoctoror]

My 2 pence worth

 

 

 

As a Scottish site owner I'm finding the whole VCR thing a bit of a pain in the *albartroth*. all the red tape over new members etc. all of it has just been thrust upon people. people like myself who are thick CNUTs at the best of times. Landwarrior(scott) is a genuine guy who i happen to believe in all this siht!!! maybe if there was so more reasonable explaination made at the time then maybe just maybe this wouldnt have happened. this isnt his fault, this is the attempt to put something in place rather quickly without every person having a full and detailed understanding. As i have a few questions which cant get answered. as no one has anwered my questions for site owners.

 

dont pericute the man. he after all as stated is one of the cheapest retailers arod. the guy has a business to run and therfore should maybe be helped instead of everyone jumping on band wagon and saying he deserves it. as most business's do if you FCUK up you get some re training so maybe just a word in the right way and a wee telling off. in no way should this ban be in place guys only making a living

 

Sn Doc

[Xaccers]

Hang on, he was getting people UKARA membership without actually confirming they were skirmishers simply because they bought guns from him.

How is that not his fault? Did someone make him do it?

"Buy from me and you can continue to buy even if you don't skirmish" is what his message was.

Unbelievably irresponsible.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

MY question is when any body criticises the omnipitent one the thread is locked out,everybody has an opinion,i think this board is becoming like so many others with mods thinking they are gods

 

this board is being ruined by power mad mods and its a shame as its one of the best ones out there

 

You're being completely unfair! The mods of any board have a very difficult time they have to be seen to be i) maintaining the peace between members ii) keeping the board legitimate, especially as it is a "public forum" iii) maintaining a fluid and enjoyable enviroment that everyone wants to be a part of!

 

It easy to dump on the mods, but how-about looking at your own statements and comments. I'm not trying to lecture you, as I too have been on the wrong ends of the MODs stick in the past, however, we as members also have a duty to consider what we post, and the wider consequences of those posts.

 

Anyone can view these posts, and it only takes someone wishing "us" damage to take a few rebellious posts and use them againsts us....we do have the freedom to our own opinions, but with that freedom comes responsibility!

[mannequin skywalker]

SPOT ON sounds like a witch hunt to me,or jealousy

 

leave the guy alone,the news should have not been publicised in the first place

 

UNPROFFESIONAL and out of order

[snakedoctoror]

dont think he meant it

 

 

i happen to remember the orginal thing before 1st oct as i was looking fr membership

 

doesnt make him a bad guy for making a mistake. Does it ?

 

 

I didnt say he wasnt completely but dont just jump on the guys back. Did you have a full understanding of it when it came in?

 

 

But as stated if he had a little better understanding of it it wouldnt have happened.

 

 

a tad harsh i think

 

 

 

[mannequin skywalker]

You're being completely unfair! The mods of any board have a very difficult time or i) maintaining the peace between members ii) keeping the board legitimate, especially as it is a "public forum" iii) maintaining a fluid and enjoyable enviroment that everyone wants to be a part of!

 

It easy to dump on the mods, but how-about looking at your own statements and comments. I'm not trying to lecture you, as I too have been on the wrong ends of the MODs stick in the past, however, we as members also have a duty to consider what we post, and the wider consequences of those posts.

 

Anyone can view these posts, and it only takes someone wishing "us" damage to take a few rebellious posts and use them againsts us....we do have the freedom to our own opinions, but with that freedom comes responsibility!

i follow the rules of the board,i dont insult other members or want to,i was stating a fact that boards get ruined by people who dont like opinions,i think UKARA is now a joke as well as plenty others do,its free speech and im allowed my opinion,if u dont like it well thats not my problem

[snakedoctoror]

far to many people want to ouse someone. its a witch hunt. let the guy be .

[Xaccers]

dont think he meant it

 

 

i happen to remember the orginal thing before 1st oct as i was looking fr membership

 

doesnt make him a bad guy for making a mistake. Does it ?

 

 

I didnt say he wasnt completely but dont just jump on the guys back. Did you have a full understanding of it when it came in?

 

 

But as stated if he had a little better understanding of it it wouldnt have happened.

 

 

a tad harsh i think

 

Of for goodness sake! Most people had an understanding that the purpose of the act was to prevent RIFs getting into the wrong hands, and the UKARA database was implimented to protect UKARA, and that grandfathering was to enable legitimate airsofters to be able to buy RIFs without having to wait 2 months.

How can anyone say that they didn't understand giving UKARA membership to people who wouldn't be able to avail themselves to the defence was wrong?

Everyone knows that the defence which was fought for is for people who skirmish, not collectors, not chavs, not backyard plinkers.

It was simply a marketting scheme "buy from me and you'll be able to buy guns in the future even if you don't skirmish"

[mannequin skywalker]

IN your opinion

[Xaccers]

IN your opinion

 

Look at it, he was offering site membership at NCIS, why do that unless you know site membership was required to avail yourself of the defence?

So he knew site membership was required.

UKARA retailers knew the details of the defence etc before the August bank holiday, so he would have known back in August the details of the defence and the requirements to avail yourself to it.

 

[snakedoctoror]

IN your opinion

 

 

 

spot on .

 

 

everyones is entitled to there opionion , i think people are taking it to far, guys admited he has made a genuine mistake help him , dont just think he is a cnut and move on, education is the best way to prevention."JUMP ON BOARD AND RIDE LIKE A BLACKPOOL DONKEY"

 

thats the message thats being stated on here

[Leadmill]

Look at it, he was offering site membership at NCIS, why do that unless you know site membership was required to avail yourself of the defence?

So he knew site membership was required.

UKARA retailers knew the details of the defence etc before the August bank holiday, so he would have known back in August the details of the defence and the requirements to avail yourself to it.

Just because you believe he was doing intentional wrong doesn't make it fact, wind your neck in.

[Xaccers]

Just because you believe he was doing intentional wrong doesn't make it fact, wind your neck in.

 

How is adding non-skirmishers to UKARA and thereby risking everyone not wrong????

Please, do explain that to me.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Of for goodness sake! Most people had an understanding that the purpose of the act was to prevent RIFs getting into the wrong hands, and the UKARA database was implimented to protect UKARA, and that grandfathering was to enable legitimate airsofters to be able to buy RIFs without having to wait 2 months.

How can anyone say that they didn't understand giving UKARA membership to people who wouldn't be able to avail themselves to the defence was wrong?

Everyone knows that the defence which was fought for is for people who skirmish, not collectors, not chavs, not backyard plinkers.

It was simply a marketting scheme "buy from me and you'll be able to buy guns in the future even if you don't skirmish"

 

Well, its funny how EVERY retailer got stung by the "Moral" bug exactly on the 1st of October. Up until the 1st October there was a selling (and buying) frenzy...and "chav" in the know could have bought a RIF at this point and no retailer would have batted an eyelid!

 

The general concensus is that the VCRA is / will be a hurdle that people have to overcome to obtain a "toy" gun! You can't have the attitude that you'll sell to any Tom ###### or Harry that walks through your door and has cash in his paws, and then 1 day later suddenly become UK retail dogooder of the year. LW seems to be simply staying true to the retail creed.....and offering a way to adhere to the law without the massive inconvienence of stamping forms, getting signatures etc etc...

 

 

[Xaccers]

Well, its funny how EVERY retailer got stung by the "Moral" bug exactly on the 1st of October. Up until the 1st October there was a selling (and buying) frenzy...and "chav" in the know could have bought a RIF at this point and no retailer would have batted an eyelid!

 

The general concensus is that the VCRA is / will be a hurdle that people have to overcome to obtain a "toy" gun! You can't have the attitude that you'll sell to any Tom ###### or Harry that walks through your door and has cash in his paws, and then 1 day later suddenly become UK retail dogooder of the year. LW seems to be simply staying true to the retail creed.....and offering a way to adhere to the law without the massive inconvienence of stamping forms, getting signatures etc etc...

 

Before the 1st Oct it was legal to sell to anyone, and there was no way of determining if someone was going to use it for airsoft or not.

Post 1st Oct on certain people can be legally sold RIFs.

LW wasn't offering a way to adhere to the law!

He was offering a way to break the law!

 

He was found out, UKARA investigated and as a member of UKARA, they took action.

[snakedoctoror]

maybe a little off topic but maybe in a way to use as an answer.

 

 

what about site owners. are we above the law? are we automatically given the right to be full members of this, my site is registered with UKARA for my players , but as for the actual site owners guide as to there membership rights. i know im not playing at any other site and forthwith will be registering at my own site but process do we go throw to validate ourselfs. there is no proper explaination to that so by preaching to others about there understanding. im not 100% sure of it all as is a couple others i have spoken to.

 

landwarrior maybe just maybe done it to make money but the landwarrior i know is out there to help airsofters and not fcuk them over. if genuie understanding was out there then this wouldnt have happened"me thinks"

[mannequin skywalker]

yeh notice how every retailer sold out of stuff,also preselling guns that were not even in the country that people are still waiting for is not against the rules and 2 of the big guns were doing it,THEY SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED AS WELL

 

DOUBLE STANDARDS