WE vs WA

[stew_b_10]

yea...

 

Sorry ben but no. Yea i bought an AGM, but i did my research before hand and ruled out the WE simply because the brass cylinder looks like ######. Its like a NBB pistol if you are cleaning/field stripping/etc. Yea, the slide racks and yea it has an ejection port, but lets be honest, its not the same, especially if you aren't shooting it. And you aren't looking at the ejection port when you do shoot it, but what you do feel is the recoil. the WA system has more. So how again is the WE better?

 

and before you say the 'cheap feeling' i have a G&P SR-16, and an AGM SR-16. the only difference is the fact that i have a crappy VFG on my AGM that wobbles. So no. For me, AGM > WE in every aspect except MAYBE performance, and that because i haven't shot both of them at long range side by side, so i cannot comment on it.

[ViciousV10s]

I prefer to think of it from this point of view gentleman,

 

The WA "open chamber" design of all modern GBBs is more realistic only in the scenario provided early; when the bolt is locked back after emptying a mag and removing the mag.

 

The WE looks more realistic if you think about the other scenario; when the gun is chambering rounds. At least the brass glimmer from the WE chamber allows us to imagine an actual cartridge being loaded....

 

I mean seriously, if we are talking realism, Id rather see brass in my chamber over a 6mm BB.

 

Oh and WE > WA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kraut]

Ok, which one has the furthest, straightest flight of a BB around 400 fps?

[Punkypink]

Sigh, can't really say the brass bit reminds me of cartridges being chambered, and I think most airsofters go more for static realism, which means an empty chamber when the gun's empty (as it will be more of the time, at home, when u're just having it next to you at the PC for a fondle). During a game, you wouldn't be looking at the ejection port while you're shooting either. I think if its realism you're going by, justifying it with the brass chamber is really forcing it.

 

I think if it's realism these are going to be judged on, the recoil feel, the feel and sound of the bolts cycling etc is gonna be where it's at.

[renegadecow]

From what I can see, in the "realism" category, WA-system is more "realistic" because of the 'empty chamber'.

How is an empty chamber realistic? It means you have no more ammo!

It also means that your gun is magically cycling with invisible bullets. Lets face it, the gun has more time actually shooting with bullets than running out of them. Thats a 1:50 ratio for WA and 1:30 for WE which means WA is unrealistic for 49 shots and is realistic in the last shot when empty. The WE is unrealistic 1 time because all 29 shots look as if real brass are being loaded.

 

So how again is the WE better?

The brass tube serves as protection from gumming up the insides with dirt as well. I can do a mag dump (rarely do, but can) without the gun going "PAPAPAPAP-PAP-PLAP-PLOP-PLOHP-POOOHP-POOOSHHHhhh". Plenty of the parts are already reinforced (new ones at least) so I don't have to worry about my alloy bolt carrier, bolt stop and ignition parts from breaking anytime soon as they're all made of steel.

[Stealthbomber]

Ok, which one has the furthest, straightest flight of a BB around 400 fps?

Y'see, you'll actually struggle to get a straight answer to a question like this.

The rabid WA owners will say WA and the equally rabid WE owners will say WE.

 

The trouble is that more moderate owners of each gun would probably be forced to admit that neither gun shoots particularly consistantly and, thus, not actually speak up. Man-size target at 40-odd metrers, no problem. I defy anybody to post a video of them firing 15 shots (with a WA, WE, AGM, G&P, Inok, GHK. Whatever) that all chrono within 10fps of each other (which should tell you how the grouping's going to be) and produce, say, a 3" grouping on a target.

 

Again. thing is, you could buy a JG HK416 which (for $150) shoots like this out of the box. Spend a few bucks on a decent piston head, nozzle, bucking and barrel and you'd have yourself an AEG that could whup any of the current gas rifles with ease. Especially in a situation where you were trading fire and emptied a whole mag at the opfor.

 

*EDIT*

Not too sure about the whole "fake bullet" thing on the WE.

How many people would buy a GBB pistol that had a gas cylinder stuck in place, in full view, when you rack the slide?

And how many people would think it was a bit "naff" to say it looks like a fake bullet in the breech?

C'mon!

On that same note, GBB pistol owners have been quite happy shooting guns which have an "empty chamber" for years.

 

Personally, a gas gun will probably only ever be as much of a toy to me as a skirmish gun. From that POV I definitely DO prefer the more realistic construction of the WA gun.

[stew_b_10]

haha. you WE guys are so funny.

 

1) dirt gumming - i run my AEG without the fake bolt in, simply because i want to. that means shiny ported cylinder for all to see. Ive played in rain, snow, mud. Ive jumped bellybutton deep into creeks. And my AEG.. yes.. AEG.. has had zero problems. none. so if you think that the closed cylinder gives you any kind of real advantage, you are stretching. oh an btw, my custom ICQB was submerged during said creek jump, that has an open breech system just like the WA GBBr system. no problems with that either. dropped the ICQB in mud before, no issue.

 

2) Mag dumps? honestly when would you ever want to dump the mag in the middle of a cycle? i assume this is what you mean because of the magna-esque system. please explain why this is an advantage.

 

3) Go to the AGM thread and tell me how many of those guys have had the bolt carrier, bolt stop, or ignition parts break. Don't worry ive read the whole thing, and its virtually non existant.

 

fact is, 15 minutes with an AGM puts it above a WE in every aspect, again except the performance in-game, which i cannot comment on. space the spring, trim the floating valve, and you are in there. I suppose you could say the hop up will break eventually, so you can either chalk one point up to WE or add that price to the cost of the AGM. either way, AGM still wins.

 

 

try again.

 

 

 

edit: stealthbomber is right on. which is why my skirmish gun is an AEG. for many, many reasons.

[snorkelman]

At a glance, the WE looks like it has brass in it.

 

aye hovering in mid air

 

I've actually no problem with it as a design (escort 'suffers' from the same) but to try and make a virtue out of the look of it is ridiculous.

 

Face it how many gbb psitols would be able to use a chunk of static horizontal brass tubing that becomes visible each time the slide cycles as a successful 'realism' selling point.

 

If folks came home tomorrow evening to find a flat mate had helpfully carried out that 'realism mod' to all their GBB psitols as a little pleasant surprise for them then they'ld likely *suitcase* a brick

 

As far as all these current GBBs go theres no real winner and I doubt we'll see one soon

 

WA has more realistic action and plenty of third party support - though some of that 3rd party stuff adresses necessities rather than luxuries (need for robust nozzle assembly, need for adjustable power output) or in case of MBKs and dressup stuff is currently overly weighted towards modern variants IMO

 

WE has lower price and has used its revisions to knock itself into something approaching useable out the box, which given its price hands it a point or two ahead of the WA/INO/WOC

 

...course no sooner has it nosed itself ahead in that respect than the emergence of cheap WA clones (and prospect of it being adopted as a generic china clone M4 GBB standard) throws a fresh variable into the equation and lets WA system regain ground

 

Give it till chrimbo and I reckon the performance and overall cost of ownership will be pretty much a wash between out the box WE and the cheap china clones of the WA. I'd be surprised if a CO2 caplet mag hasnt emerged on WA side of things by then, while on the WE side it has to make sense for them to ship with an adjustable FPS set up as standard by that stage, giving same flexibility on both setups.

 

Likwise going by current release schedules and parts beign offered I dont see it taking any longer than chrimbo for cheap chinese equivs of the remaining currently 'spendy' WA upgrade parts to emerge (ie cheap steel trigger, cheap steel hammer, cheap NPAS). They might not be up to same finish as the current higher end offerings, but if they're robust enough then thats not going to probve a big concern to a lot of users who are just looking to shake out potential pot metal weaklinks from the stock chinese clone.

 

I'd reckon that the ony real difference will be that 250 to 300 bucks will buy you the WE in need of next to nothing done to it, whereas the same bucks will provide a budget for folk to buy a china clone WA, with enough left over to tick all the neccesary upgrade boxes.

 

At that stage individual buyers choice is going to come down to minor details like

 

which set of internals are more realistic (that will be important for some and Id give that to the WA)

 

how much meddling the end user wants to indulge in (clone WA with upgrade parts to be sourced and fitted) versus an off the shelf WE gun

 

how important cross gun mag compatibility is for some users (where WE may well use same mags for M4 L85 and Scar making that a very attractive option to those intent on purchasing multiple GBB guns)

 

how many off the shelf variants the chinese manufacs churn out e.g. if other manufacs come in to grab a slice of the interest that AGM is currently getting it could get interesting - either in terms of complete guns or perhaps some cheap MBKs etc

 

to me that would actually be the ideal scenario - two alternative platforms that can turn in very similar performance on a very similar budget where folks pays their money and takes their choice.

 

Personally I'd have to admit I'd take the WA design over the WE - I've got external powered gas guns coming out of my ears, so If I'm going to compromise consistency and running costs I can acheive with those, by buying a gas in mag gun, then the GIM guns I buy are going to have to offer as little compromise as possible in other areas - one of those being how closely their action mimics the real deal. For me the WE just doesnt bring enough to the party to justify adding it to the guns Ive got, whereas the WA and GHK designs do.

 

[ViciousV10s]

Sigh, can't really say the brass bit reminds me of cartridges being chambered, and I think most airsofters go more for static realism, which means an empty chamber when the gun's empty (as it will be more of the time, at home, when u're just having it next to you at the PC for a fondle). During a game, you wouldn't be looking at the ejection port while you're shooting either. I think if its realism you're going by, justifying it with the brass chamber is really forcing it.

 

I think if it's realism these are going to be judged on, the recoil feel, the feel and sound of the bolts cycling etc is gonna be where it's at.

 

 

Do you realize that you just completely contradicted yourself, if not let me point out the irony and humor in your above statement for us all to see more clearly;

 

"I think most airsofters go more for static realism, which means an empty chamber when the gun's empty "

 

 

 

"I think if it's realism these are going to be judged on, the recoil feel, the feel and sound of the bolts cycling etc is gonna be where it's at."

 

Do you see the humor in that people!? DO yoU!? LOL

 

I think you WA fanboys are the ones pushing it by declaring the WA more realistic because of an "open chamber" design.

 

As for the recoil and overall shooting experience, I'm going to also chalk it up to the WA fanboy society for brainwashing people into thinking the WA actually performs any better.

 

But I dont have much experience with GBBs so what do I know?

 

 

I'm just messing around anyone fellas, as always said " to each his own" will always hold true. I'm sure the WA is a beauty when it works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Punkypink]

Do you realize that you just completely contradicted yourself, if not let me point out the irony and humor in your above statement for us all to see more clearly;

 

"I think most airsofters go more for static realism, which means an empty chamber when the gun's empty "

 

 

 

"I think if it's realism these are going to be judged on, the recoil feel, the feel and sound of the bolts cycling etc is gonna be where it's at."

 

Do you see the humor in that people!? DO yoU!? LOL

 

I think you WA fanboys are the ones pushing it by declaring the WA more realistic because of an "open chamber" design.

 

As for the recoil and overall shooting experience, I'm going to also chalk it up to the WA fanboy society for brainwashing people into thinking the WA actually performs any better.

 

But I dont have much experience with GBBs so what do I know?

 

 

I'm just messing around anyone fellas, as always said " to each his own" will always hold true. I'm sure the WA is a beauty when it works.

I'm not a fanboy. For a start, I'm not a boy. I don't own a WA either. I'm neutral here. And that is not a contradiction. The 1st line says what I think most airsofters are actually more concerned with, the 2nd line says what I personally think the basis for realism should be judged on. In fact, from what I've heard, the WE is supposedly the one with the better recoil? Who knows. I'll be happy to have a go with both a WA and WE to judge that myself.

[Stealthbomber]

how important cross gun mag compatibility is for some users (where WE may well use same mags for M4 L85 and Scar making that a very attractive option to those intent on purchasing multiple GBB guns)

 

Must say, I dunno if WE released their SCAR so quickly in order to regain market share against the WA clones or if they did it to give US customers summat to buy in light of their BATF issues but, whatever the reason, I think this is gonna turn out to be THE best move WE make.

 

A WE SCAR, G36 (yes, I know) and L85 which use the same mags (as well as, possibly, FaMas' HKs, SIGs etc) would REALLY give WE a market share that the WA platform could only envy.

 

The only worry I'd have would be whether people would buy more than one gas gun or whether they'd simply cherry-pick the model they specifically want to buy.

[stew_b_10]

WA system had more recoil. probably because the BCG actually moves.

[ViciousV10s]

I'm only speaking from my 10+ years of GBB experience guys. I've owned hundreds of GBBs, $25K worth and countless hours of tuning and building them.

 

I've own over 50 WA GBBs, half of which being the esteemed "Magna" systems. I've also spent half thatt money "upgrading" and tuning the WAs.

 

I've learned quite a bit. Here's what you WA boys will learn soon enough, if you haven't already like the myriad of members dumping their WA's across the sales forum boards...

 

You buy a WA because it is high quality, highly engineered, Japanese made awesomeness. Specifically designed and built to run on 134a gas which WILL exploded with the use of GG/Propane.

 

You take your exquisitely formed WA and begin to upgrade it with Taiwanese and other 2nd tier products in the search for Power.

 

You failed to realize that the quality assurance, research and development, time and effort, was not actually put into the design or your G&P counterparts (and other unnamed manufacturers).

 

You wonder why your WA keeps jamming...keeps breaking loading nozzles...is no longer the high quality, top-tier, cream of the crop that it was when you first bought it...

 

You sell it and buy a WE.

 

 

But like I said, I dont know anything about GBBs.

 

 

[stew_b_10]

Or, you could buy the clone that already has that power, and with parts that are meant to work together. if half of them are lemons, you can always buy two instead of a WE.

[Stealthbomber]

I've own over 50 WA GBBs, half of which being the esteemed "Magna" systems. I've also spent half thatt money "upgrading" and tuning the WAs.

 

....

 

You sell it and buy a WE.

 

Well, there's a paradox.

 

If WA guns are so poor, why'd you keep on buying them?

 

But like I said, I dont know anything about GBBs.

So, just to clarify, do you own a WA M4, or have you ever shot one?

 

Cos, TBH, what you're doing is like saying that you've driven Fords for years so you "know" the Ford GT40 is terrible.

[Kraut]

From a 3rd party perspective, the whole "empty chamber" argument is the funniest thing. I mean, really, do you even hear what you're saying?

 

The brass tube serves as protection from gumming up the insides with dirt as well.

That is the biggest thing for me. In fact, that's the main reason I don't have a GBBr. The dirt and dust here in Oklahoma would just wreck havoc on the open bolt system, and probably would do the same to the closed, just in a longer amount of time. I regularly have to clear jammed pistols and such.

[Stealthbomber]

From a 3rd party perspective, the whole "empty chamber" argument is the funniest thing. I mean, really, do you even hear what you're saying?

More importantly, do YOU read what other people are saying?

 

We've already asked how come nobody complains about the lack of "brass" in a GBB pistol and pondered on whether people would prefer to have a "fake bullet" permenantly fixed in the breech of their pistols to an "empty" chamber.

 

It's also been noted that, despite the "empty" breech, some find the WA design more pleasing because it uses more authentic parts.

 

It'd help if you actually respond to these points or offer a POV of your own.

It might stop you sounding like a troll.

[ViciousV10s]

Well, there's a paradox.

 

If WA guns are so poor, why'd you keep on buying them?

 

 

So, just to clarify, do you own a WA M4, or have you ever shot one?

 

Cos, TBH, what you're doing is like saying that you've driven Fords for years so you "know" the Ford GT40 is terrible.

 

 

It was a long studious $10K lesson I won't soon forget.

 

I own a WE not a WA. And FYI if you know anything about the WA, you should know it's using the same 'ol WA Magna technology from the '80s.

[Punkypink]

More importantly, do YOU read what other people are saying?

 

We've already asked how come nobody complains about the lack of "brass" in a GBB pistol and pondered on whether people would prefer to have a "fake bullet" permenantly fixed in the breech of their pistols to an "empty" chamber.

 

It's also been noted that, despite the "empty" breech, some find the WA design more pleasing because it uses more authentic parts.

 

It'd help if you actually respond to these points or offer a POV of your own.

It might stop you sounding like a troll.

I think he means that from a neutral PoV, WA and WE fans arguing over the realism of the chamber under what circumstance is hilarious.

[Stealthbomber]

From a 3rd party perspective...

 

I own a WE not a WA.

 

Ahh, so you were trolling. There was me thinking you were asking genuine questions.

 

I think he means that from a neutral PoV, WA and WE fans arguing over the realism of the chamber under what circumstance is hilarious.

Is it hilarious?

 

I just don't see it. I've seen 20 year old GBB pistols with closed ejection ports and gas cylinders visible through the ejection port.

People didn't like em and the gun designers didn't like em so they refined the designs to more closely replicate the way a real gun works.

Common opinion seems to be that airsofters value authenticity.

It seems a bit desperate to suggest that "it looks like a bullet" in defence of a big daft bit of brass pipe inside their gun and that the lack of a fake bullet is unrealistic in every other GBB pistol in the world.

 

So no, I don't think it's hilarious.

[Punkypink]

are they the same person?

[ViciousV10s]

No we are not the same person, our Mod was simply mistaken.

 

 

So owning 25 or more WA Magna GBB pistols doesn't qualify me to make an educated assumption? You really think that an M4 designed by WA using the same system is going to be different because it's in rifle form?

 

Cut the jokes.

[3vi1-D4n]

WE has more mass more spring tension, more actual "inertia movement" but less "recoil"

AGM has less mas, less spring tension, less actual "inertia movement" and more "recoil"

 

WE is a gentle back and forth and you can see the rifle move, enough to throw shots off, but totally controllable.

AGM is sharp kick backwards, snappy cycling, the movement isn't enough to move the rifle, but the impact gives you the sensation of recoil and is uncontrollable.

 

I can say that much.

 

As for not being able to hit stuff, while OOTB it is true, so are many equivalently priced AEGs, and is totally dependent on tolerances. I remember a few brand new G&G SR25 that shot 100fps OOTB, very fun. I was fixing a OOTB SRC RPK that shoots at 200fps.

 

AEGs are always going to be skirmish based guns. With batteries and the right motors, they have endurance, consistency, and being able to carry hicaps and real caps means they can switch between the casual crowd and realsim crowds. However AEGs:1) have more moving parts 2) and more 3rd party parts, and 3) electricals. It equals that more things can go wrong, and more technical expertise are required to make them, or to get them to function the way you want them to.

 

Gas do have less endurance, less consistency and only really appeal to the realsim crowds. It is not to say that they aren't consistent. At the moment my AGM upper rattles like a mofo but I am hitting cans at 30m (100ft) easy. If you put the work in to understand the rifle you will live with it, I have seen players carry a can of propane in a day pack, and 10 mags to fight his way out of a meat grinder to reload. With real caps and limited resources, the dedicated will plan his shots, plan his gear and overcome the adversity.

 

IN the end its all down to faith, faith in the weapon, and how your faith and belief tries to argue this silly thread out. In the end I have seen guys with rubber chickens take out airsofters in a skirmish, so yea.....

 

Its the same as the Singaporean Armed forced fielding an M16 rifle that has trouble firing a whole live magazine, its still used over the updated SAR21 today.

 

Do you have faith in your rubber chicken?

 

[ViciousV10s]

No we are not the same person, our Mod was simply mistaken.

 

 

So owning 25 or more WA Magna GBB pistols doesn't qualify me to make an educated assumption? You really think that an M4 designed by WA using the same system is going to be different because it's in rifle form?

 

Cut the jokes.

 

 

I also think the open vs closed bolt design is silly. I was pointing it out from a WE perspective to humor the fact that it's a characteristic WA fans feel is so important in their decision to choose between WA and WE.

 

For me, an avid GBB fan/collector/tuner, I was able to easily overlook the closed bolt WE design when it came down to function over form.

 

And anyway I dont know about you guys but when Im carrying around my GBB pistols or WE M4, I dont brandish it with the slide racked and locked back...and I dont keep my M4 bolt locked back either....

 

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

are they the same person?

 

No we are not the same person, our Mod was simply mistaken.

Yep. Sorry about that.

 

That's why I was a bit baffled by the change of opinion.

 

So owning 25 or more WA Magna GBB pistols doesn't qualify me to make an educated assumption? You really think that an M4 designed by WA using the same system is going to be different because it's in rifle form?

 

Cut the jokes.

Well, it qualifies you to opine on the quality of WA guns but, in this case, their original design has been used by Inokatsu, G&P and AGM as well.

All these guns offer things that the original WA gun lacked.

 

As for the whole "it's the same system" thing, that's a bit thin. Just cos it uses the same design of valve in the mags it hardly means it's identical to every other WA Magna pistol.

Beyond that, it tells you NOTHING about the performance of a G&P, AGM or Inok version of the same design.