ECHO1 M28 Sniper's Rifle

[l96ninja]

I think you mean a 90 degree trigger group, like the Laylax Zero-Trigger, PDI V-Trigger, and the Noobie's M-Trigger.

[DRAGON64]

I think you mean a 90 degree trigger group, like the Laylax Zero-Trigger, PDI V-Trigger, and the Noobie's M-Trigger.

 

Thanks for the correction l96ninja, sometimes my references are close, but this time I was 90 degrees of the mark... <my bad attempt at being humorous>

 

I took the time to once again go through the rifle and make some minor adjustments, and to get some pictures of the trigger group, since I have not reported much on this subject. The trigger group itself is a VSR-10 clone set up, completely compatable with other VSR-10 clones, and with Tokyo Marui VSR-10 trigger group. When you first fire the rifle, you may be taken by surprise at how light of a pull the M28 trigger has. I do not have device to measure the pull, just know that it is very light to the point I believe this rifle could benefit from having a nice two stage design... it almost needs one.

 

I stated that the piston sear showed signs of use, as there was a shiney spot at the point of contact (with piston), and I also stated that the piston sear showed no signs of rounding off, that all edges were crisp. This is not entirely true, as the piston comes with a radious pre-cut into the firing edge of the piston sear. The first pictire shows the smooth spot where the sear meets piston, and the round edge can be seen clearly:

 

 

Here is a shot looking closer at the rounded edge. Here you will note, that the edge is too even to have been cause from use, which tells me it is a design from the mfg:

 

 

The only real damage from use noted on this sear, is where one side is making contact with the slot in the cylinder. As the cylineder is cycled, it is slightly cutting into the sear:

 

 

Some final notes on the trigger group; the entire assembly first and second sear assembly is very loose inside of the metal trigger box. The trigger group has very weak spings installed, which may also add to the light trigger pull. Without a doubt, this trigger group will need to have a complete rebuild performed on it, and I am happy to say, that I have the replacement components all ready in hand:

 

[DRAGON64]

Before I work on the accuracy, I will perform a 10-shot string with the M28. Wjile I had the rifle apart looking at the trigger group, I went ahead and re-worked some of the cylinder parts, and I re-installed the factory barrel. Simple mods really, I took the cylinder head, placed in a cordless drill and smoothed convergence cone:

 

Before:

 

After:

 

Then I serviced the piston head and cylinder head with some teflon tape. I used Teflon tape to build up the deep o-ring groove, to see if I can make the compression a little more efficient. I noticed some time ago that if you close off the cylinder head nozzle and fire the receiver assembly, that pressure escape out the back of the trigger area. Obviuosly the pressue is leaking passed the o-ring and through the groove.

 

 

For reference, in the picture below, the original M28 barrel is on the bottom, and the WELL MB03 is on top. Both fit in this rifle.

 

 

Hopefully the results of today's playtime will be encouraging, either way I'm going out to enjoy some 60-degree weather for a change.

[mimesis]

For reference, in the picture below, the original M28 barrel is on the bottom, and the WELL MB03 is on top. Both fit in this rifle.

 

 

 

I've never seen a barrel like that upper one. Looks like a cross between an AEG and a VSR. The "window" is pure AEG, but the heavy 360 degree groove, and the lack of other features (e.g. cut-outs for the C-clip) obviously make it VSR compatible.

 

This would make a big difference, I'm sure. http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/tokyo-marui-precision-brass-barrel-and-new-chamber-set-for-vsr-10.html Pity the barrel is the wrong length. With the Laylax, you have to go over to an AEG cut barrel. http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/upgrade-part/parts-upgrade-rifle/hop-up-enhancements/pss10-air-seal-hop-up-chamber-for-vsr-10-series.html As you do too, with the brand-new PDI chamber. http://www.x-fire.org/vsr10/e.vsr_chamber.html

[DRAGON64]

Thanks for the links mimesis, after todays results, I may have to make a serious order... below is the video I made of my best 11-shot string. The object was a 9" paperplate taped to a fiberglass rod which held the plate 4 feet off of the ground. The plate was set to minimum engagement distances (MED) as set by the fields that I have access to play at, which is 100 feet. The rifle was rested on a bench top using the supplied bi-pod for a steady... Suffice to say, the bi-pod worked as designed, no need to review it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwSjHTeB_C0

 

Another small disappointment, the M1 scope from EVIKE is blurry as it can be, and doe not seem to let in much light. I figure a 30mm tube would let in more light than a 1" tube.

 

As for the video; my daughter thought it was a little "long-in-the-tooth" so you have been warned!

 

Here is an interesting little tid-bit; I was able to increase the fps by an average of 20 fps with the addition of the Teflon mods performed on the piston and cylinder head... and here is that video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QDBpjSzl4

[l96ninja]

When you buy your Precision Chamber, don't bother buying another bucking, the one it comes with is perfectly fine. As for the inner barrel, a PDI inner barrel for the TM L96 should work, as it is cut for the VSR-10 and is 500mm long. You should also invest in a set of ABB rings, that should help your consistency a lot by fixing the cylinder to chamber compression at the bucking. Good luck!

[Isamu]

 

Here is an interesting little tid-bit; I was able to increase the fps by an average of 20 fps with the addition of the Teflon mods performed on the piston and cylinder head... and here is that video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QDBpjSzl4

 

 

20FPS by just adding teflon tape to increase compression? dont know if thats an awesome mod or a great fail from the factory

 

Thanks for the tips Dragon, maybe this way we will be able to downgrade the gun while keeping the FPS at a nice peak

 

 

[mimesis]

The shot-to-shot inconsistency is probably either looseness of parts in the hop-up chamber (particularly the arm), a sub-par bucking, or a combination of the two. Of course, fluctuations in pressure seal don't help either.

 

Though the TM buckings are good, in my L96 I got an improvement from dropping in a Nineball.

 

Sorry to hear about the scope. The two "Leupolds" I got from eHobbyAsia and KHMountain are pretty good. I presume yours has the parallax adjustment on the side. You have to fiddle a bit between the parallax setting (30, 35 yards I'd guess) and the focus ring, but I've got mine both pretty clear.

 

What weight/brand bbs were you using in the accuracy test?

[DRAGON64]

The shot-to-shot inconsistency is probably either looseness of parts in the hop-up chamber (particularly the arm), a sub-par bucking, or a combination of the two. Of course, fluctuations in pressure seal don't help either.

 

Though the TM buckings are good, in my L96 I got an improvement from dropping in a Nineball.

 

Sorry to hear about the scope. The two "Leupolds" I got from eHobbyAsia and KHMountain are pretty good. I presume yours has the parallax adjustment on the side. You have to fiddle a bit between the parallax setting (30, 35 yards I'd guess) and the focus ring, but I've got mine both pretty clear.

 

What weight/brand bbs were you using in the accuracy test?

 

.3 gram bb's for the tests yesterday.

 

I'll play more with the scope adjustments, the most noticable change in the scope was the zoom, the parallax movements and focus ring changed very little.

 

I will get a new hop up on order sometime this week or next, I know this will help with the accuracy issue.

 

Isamu - It is a shame, that the factory adds a tighter spring to increase power, which in turn shortens the life span of the parts in the rifle due to the inferior quality of the internals to handle the pressure of the spring. I would mnuch rather breed efficiency intom the piston and seals, and use a less tense spring... which I assume would be much less cost effective than just using a bigger spring.

 

I'm the type of person that does not like to buy a rifle, and then start shopping for upgrades before the rifle is even delivered by the employees in brown. But for the first time, I am looking at replacing every component that deals with accuracy on this rifle. The MB03 and MB07 that I owned could turn to dust in my hands, and I would not want to upgrade it. But this rifle is fairly good looking, and the external parts are very nice, nice enough that I plan to expend some time and money to make this rifle a contender.

 

l96ninja - I plan to get the Tokyo Marui hop unit from ehobby, but I also have some feelers out to marineSGT at ASR and one other member (name escapes me), to see if they have some spare parts left over from their builds that they would not mind selling me. Specifically a Tokyo Marui or JG Bar-10 hop up unit (complete).

[Isamu]

Well, chinese brands work that way, they put brute force instead of eficiency, faster and easier, so cheaper, and what would we do if the worked great OOTB? it would boring =P

 

Anyway, I think that a weaker spring, your teflon mod TM hop chamber (dont bother with JG) and a tightbore should leave good FPS reasings

[mimesis]

I agree: you want a hop-up chamber manufactured to tight tolerances, to eliminate any slop in the arm or elsewhere, and for that you have to go to quality products, like the TM.

 

I'm still mulling over those screw holes in the M28 piston, as if the piston were sourced from another rilfe that "featured" the Real Shock weights. I know the Socom Gear R700 has them, and I think the SG is a rebranding of the UFC VSR-11. I wonder if there are others. Still, your great photos demonstrate that the M28 piston is a bit longer. I wonder how close in length all the different VSR-10 pistons are to each other. A conundrum.

 

EDIT: this is one of the other more interesting and better informed threads on the M28.

http://www.airsoftretreat.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=0976dbca2fd679bd2b255e44baad88ca&topic=97358.0

 

Pages 1 and 2: definite assertions that the ASR piston is almost identical in size but will not work because of 45 vs 90 degree difference. I wonder if Covert will respond. Can they be changing the trigger group too??

[DRAGON64]

I agree: you want a hop-up chamber manufactured to tight tolerances, to eliminate any slop in the arm or elsewhere, and for that you have to go to quality products, like the TM.

 

I'm still mulling over those screw holes in the M28 piston, as if the piston were sourced from another rilfe that "featured" the Real Shock weights. I know the Socom Gear R700 has them, and I think the SG is a rebranding of the UFC VSR-11. I wonder if there are others. Still, your great photos demonstrate that the M28 piston is a bit longer. I wonder how close in length all the different VSR-10 pistons are to each other. A conundrum.

 

EDIT: this is one of the other more interesting and better informed threads on the M28.

http://www.airsoftretreat.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=0976dbca2fd679bd2b255e44baad88ca&topic=97358.0

 

Pages 1 and 2: definite assertions that the ASR piston is almost identical in size but will not work because of 45 vs 90 degree difference. I wonder if Covert will respond. Can they be changing the trigger group too??

 

The SOCOM Gear R700 Real Shock Weights:

 

 

But the R700 is compeletly VSR-10 compatable, where as the cylinder group in this rifle is not. The M28 cylinder is roughly a .25" longer than many other VSR-10 types, because it has to reach .25" deeper into the outer barrel to reach the hop up. In order to use the VSR-10 trigger group and to keep the trigger in same location, or normal location, the piston had to be extended in order to reach the piston sear. It is really a mild change in design, in order to market a nice looking rifle, unfortunate for us, as there are no aftermarket support parts to use.

 

I offered a simple alternative, that would allow use of all VSR-10 parts, and that is to make a cylinder head that reached .25" deeper into the cylinder. But then again, if you could turn out a cylinder head, then you could just as easy turn out a piston...however, the new cylinder head would allow use of some VSR-10 replacement pistons already in the market...

[climber]

here is my fix to change piston from stock to an PDI vsr piston..

 

stock piston and vsr piston:

 

 

unscrewed the 45degree aloy nub at the end of the piston, and made a new longer one:

 

 

now they have the same length, and still can be used in both vsr and the M24/28:

 

 

have had some problems with the cyl/piston jamming when pushing the cylinder forward after cocking.. and have alot of scratches inside the cylinder.. dont know if this problem is the piston/springguide or trigger related.. hope this piston will fix some of the problems since it have tighter fit..

 

 

[DRAGON64]

 

 

have had some problems with the cyl/piston jamming when pushing the cylinder forward after cocking.. and have alot of scratches inside the cylinder.. dont know if this problem is the piston/springguide or trigger related.. hope this piston will fix some of the problems since it have tighter fit..

 

 

 

Looks like a ligitimate fix, have you taken measurements to see what the problem may be? Can you point out where the scratches are at inside the cylinder? Thank you for sharing your work!

[climber]

scratches are right above the spring guide, not in the compression area so its not that dangerous, and was caused by the stock piston/spring/springguide..

 

and stock spring is weekend allot now, gives about 460-480fps...

 

here is a pdi cylinder head im going to use, until i make my self a new one with longer nozzle so i can use a vsr stainless cylinder:

 

 

 

[climber]

OK, found an big airleak!!

 

next time you have your rifle apart, try to put the cylinder head in the hop-chamber, cover the hole with a finger and blow in the barrel...

 

had a major air leak on mine, leak was under the hop arm leaking forward between barrel and bucking..

 

 

 

 

lost fps some time ago, was pretty shore it was the spring so i changed the spring, piston, springguide and got nearly 550fps again...

 

after finding this airleak i decided to change the hop unit, so i installed a pdi aeg chamber (converting to aeg bucking and barrel)

 

tested with the cyl head again and this time it was no leaks at all... took it to the chrono and this is what i got:

 

 

Guess next step is downgrading

 

 

 

[DRAGON64]

695.6 is insane, you would be lucky the rifle doesn't try to tear it self apart... With better parts, the rifle might work better as a competition rifle.

 

Update:

 

Roughly 500 rounds fired, I have now run into multiple issues. I had multiple events take place with my rifle this afternoon; First of all, I re-arranged the rifle again, to put all of the factory parts back on. Don't know what I did right, but the rifle started firing straight. Before finishing the first magazine, the cylinder became noticably harder to push back into fire position... and then it slam-fired. I managed to finish the magazine, but we all know, that once it starts slam firing, it only gets worse.

 

I decided that the trigger group was the culprit, so I pulled the trigger group and rebuilt it using the AirsoftGI upgraded trigger sears. Rifle seemed to work, cycle and fire okay, but now my magazines have decided to not load the bbs anymore.

 

I am totally amazed at how fast my rifle has deteriorated. Not as fast as the WELL MB07 I used to own, but fast enough.

 

I would consider the bulk of this review on the ECHO1 M28 done... I stated that I would fire the rifle till it broke, and it has broken multiple times today. I am now turing my attension to upgrading My ECHO1 M28.

 

Note, my M28 is not representative of the entire line of ECHO1 M28's, as I feel it is awesome looking platform. I just managed to get hold of a "lemon" so to speak. So goes the trials of being a beta tester for a version 1 release. As for upgrades, I can replace the VSR-10 parts from a number of different sources, and I can replace the inner barrel, my two concerns are magazines and cylinder group upgrades, there just aren't any yet.

 

Time to fix it...

[climber]

have you chroned your rifle now after 500shots?? hove much weaker is your spring now??

 

mine have dropped down to 480fps now...

 

 

[DRAGON64]

have you chroned your rifle now after 500shots?? hove much weaker is your spring now??

 

mine have dropped down to 480fps now...

 

 

 

Are you saying that your fps has dropped from 695 to 480?

 

The last time I tested the fps, it was holding at the 520 mark, this video was made 4-days ago:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QDBpjSzl4

[climber]

no of course not.... the stock spring was 525fps but now have dropped down to 480ish...

[mimesis]

I saw on ASF that doubts had arisen about the fit of the TM, Laylax, and PDI hop-up chambers in the M28.

 

Have you tried putting the Well chamber in it? Not suggesting that it would perform any better, just to get a handle on possible cross-compatibility of VSR-type parts.

[climber]

yeah, have a gold chamber in mine, not shore if its a pdi or first but its for marui vsr, converting to aeg barrels... it vas 0.9mm larger than the stock chamber

 

no big deal to mill it down, can also use a short aeg barrel and a drill to sand it down...

 

 

[DRAGON64]

I saw on ASF that doubts had arisen about the fit of the TM, Laylax, and PDI hop-up chambers in the M28.

 

Have you tried putting the Well chamber in it? Not suggesting that it would perform any better, just to get a handle on possible cross-compatibility of VSR-type parts.

 

I saw the same report, and I did indeed try to fit the WELL chamber from my sons TSD SD700 into the M28...no go, the reports seem to be ligit. The WELL chamber would require some major trimming to fit inside of the outer barrel.

 

As of now, the only VSR-10 compatable hop up parts are the bucking, the barrel, and some of the hop up slide components.

[3vi1-D4n]

Dragon64, can you take a picture of the failz of the trigger?

[DRAGON64]

Dragon64, can you take a picture of the failz of the trigger?

 

I actually have a video of the trigger issue, but the focus was way off so I never loaded it onto youtube. Although blurry, it captured the problems with the trigger group.

 

EDIT: Surprise to me, I was able to get the video published before my edit option went away...

 

Here is the video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmBhCv8xPxk

 

It will be hard for me to recreate the video, as I have already replaced all of the parts, and the rifle is firing nicely again.