Mulit Shot AEG Concept

[Crimson]

How is that gearset any better ?

[renegadecow]

Most ones I find have lightening cuts (round holes) all around the gear and would make the placement of the new nubs difficult at best. With the one linked, I may net even need to drill out new holes to insert the nubs but simply extend the screws on the side as they are already equiangular and looks to be at the right spot in time with the sector gear teeth. If they aren't (in time) I still have a good 3-4mm to play with on either side to drill new holes for nubs.

[Snoop-Uk]

Was thinking this could be possible with a high power motor and an inverse AEG style system using the TM shottie system. That sounds weird but I'll explain.

 

The Marui style shotties have the shell loading gate at the front of the cylinder so I this might affect the mech but here goes.

 

Firstly, fit a hook/connector to the rear of the tri shot under the cylinders, This will be then set to engage with a similar one on an action bar which is spring loaded to push forward once a cycle has completed.

 

The AEG mech behind in the cavernous stock would pull on the action bar down it's length retrieving all 3 cylinders and loading each one. basically then the mechanical trigger from the shotgun would be pulled by lever sending the cylinders forward, and hitting a switch which triggers the motor/action bar once the cylinder is fully forward, this completes one cycle. Obviously a minute delay May be required on the automation to prevent bb suckback as the chambers are NOT aerated and as such basically act as a sealed chamber down the barrel.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

the long and short of it would be that the shotty would action as 3 separate chambers avoiding over FPS.

The action would be a reliable marui style and use the Marui trigger(the electronics/AEG's are actioned by the cylinder not the trigger) I'll see if I can make an animation of it but doubtful where I'm working at moment.

[hawaiianjuggernaut]

My sites limit is 430fps for CQB, 

 

Okay. Ouch

[swatti]

I did a WORKING 3-shot system on an AEG once. It was based on an old TM Beta, with all TM internals and the forementioned extra nubs for the tappet. These were made of 2 screws bolted thru a small round piece of plastic made to fit the TM gear as it has room in it.

 

There are "issues" with it. 

- You must shorten the part of the tappet that these cams/nubs hit or it will not move "correctly"

- Positioning the cams is VERY hard as there needs to be time for the nozzle to seal the barrel

- The gears need to move rather "slowly" or timing goes boo boo

- Gears must stop at a correct spot and do a full cycle (pre-cocking CPU-mosfet would do this)

 

My TM "test-base" was able to fire CONSTANT 3bbs at each trigger-pull. Needless to say, power was sad at best due to TM spring but the "system worked"

 

Sadly my test-base no longer exists BUT have no fear, i have once more dwelved into this project as im doing a Saiga 12k myself and "DSG-setups" simply wont suffice and anything closely related to TM tri-shot shotguns is plain garbage. It has to shoot 3 bbs with one trigger-pull. Simple as that...

 

Heres my ideas:

 

From a problem to a helper: Double feed + ONE extra tappet-cam

Some guns have issue of double feeding, this is usually due to loose bucking lips. "Loosen them" further and you have 100% double-feeding gun. Add ONE(instead of two / total of three) more tappet-cam and you have gun feeding more then 2bbs. This i have yet to test out. It may have issues of feeding 3-4 bbs and thus being inconsistant, that is not gonna suffice for me tho. Proper placing of the hop-up MAY yield an answer as it could stop the fourth bb from loading. Need to test

 

Proven, once up on a time: Tri-cams

Triple-cam system i have once used and it has worked, now i need a proper setup to that, as in 300% gears that are slow, cams added to em and the setup mounted on a gun. To throw out 3 bbs at around 100ms/350fps i'd imagine i need M160 spring or so... Good actually, less speed. Pre-cocking CPU-mosfet i allready have and it has room to breathe in its programming if i need something special

 

Gizmos meet airsoft: External tappet-movement

Using an electric solenoid, controlled by the CPU mosfet on a different controll-circuit, you could move the tappetplate any number of times between each shot. Issues are, finding the right type of solenoid that fits. There is SOME room in the V3 gearbox AND certain metal-bodies have room for EXTERNAL soledoid for larger size. The controll-circuit i can have made, the solenoid is the problem. Find me one the right size and i'l handle it from there.

[renegadecow]

That sounds extremely promising, all of it. All this time the closest I've read anyone try the concept was by Maekl over at Airsoft Mechanics, although his intention was to make a complete triple sector gear and not just the nubs. So far he's only tested the design virtually on CAD and as you say, the tappet plate fin has to be severely modified to cycle properly.

[swatti]

The fin needs to be cut shorter so it completes the cycle faster. Ive build few working models of my "LNP-mod" or "long nozzle pull -mod" on a few AEG snipers, if you combine that to the shorter fin, it may give it some much needed reliability.

[swatti]

Attention, following idea not concieved not due to excessive alcohol-abuse

 

The electric solenoid, its rather hard to find one that fits and moves far enough, sooooo... Why not mount it OUTSIDE alltogether. Where on an AK is plenty of space? Under to top-cover! So, how to move something on the inside with something on the outside? Easy! String. Piano-wire etc anything flexible and durable. Remove the tappet-cam from the gear, drill a small hole into the tappet-plate fin and another to the back of the gearbox where the wire goes in. Attach the solenoid into the box-rail, pull the string around the back of the gearbox into the solenoid and voila!

 

There are TONS of solenoids that fit easy below the top-cover and move the needed distance. Such a large solenoid can easily pull the tappet-plate back even if the original spring is in place. 

[CatgutViolin]

@Crimson

That was what I was thinking of last when I had the urge to make a USAS-12, but it just doesn't feel right. The way I see it is if I pull off this tri-burst concept, I'll get the volume of fire of a high rof gun, but not necessarily stress everything to destruction as the crucial bits are happily chugging along at a leisurely pace. Also, if you could please link to the the Maruzen M1100 AA-12 build you were talking about earlier? I know my intentions are to build an AEG, but I'd just like to know if and how that chap you mentioned did it on a GBB.

 

Actually, if anything, you'd stress the internals more, since you'd be making a series of very high stress shots instead of a larger number of much less stressful ones. Either way the energy is the same, but in the first case you have a much higher peak stress.

 

It's still a cool idea, just don't expect it to be more durable than a comparable AEG.

[Crimson]

I have a DSG set up 60 RPS on full auto the only thing that gets stressed by the load is the motor which burns out from the semi use, i can run full auto all day long its the stopping (breaking of the mosfet) that kills the motor.

 

If anything you could get away with a 13.1 set, 11 lipo and programmable mosfet to fire in 3 round bursts and and a 3 second delay, couple it with a box mag in the form of a AA12 12 gage mag and you got a working AA12 that wont break.

 

Did anyone manage to contact the guy who made that resin cast ?

 

I managed to track down one of the makers gonna see how much he charges for the resin cast:

 

Edit*

 

the pictures wont work anyway use the url to get it working:

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[renegadecow]

I've never done high rof setups myself, only med-high fps setups and the guns that I do see in the field having in excess of 30rps have a tendency to chew up pistons on a weekly basis. I'm sure those failures can be blamed at whoever built the gun, but I'm just not comfortable with it myself. And unless I learn how to assemble mosfets myself, getting one to do intermittent bursts to simulate shotgun patterns is gonna cost a pretty penny. 

[hawaiianjuggernaut]

I've never done high rof setups myself, only med-high fps setups and the guns that I do see in the field having in excess of 30rps have a tendency to chew up pistons on a weekly basis. 

 

40rps M4: "PISTONNNSSS OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM...."

[swatti]

DONT USE ACTIVE BREAKING MOSFETS WITHOUT A PROPER CPU-MOSFET!!!

 

What ppl dont know is that active breaking short-circuits the motor so it stops. CPU-mosfets can break "gently" instead of shorting the motor with all the power.

 

While i RARELY build high-rof setups as i find them rather useless i do have 45RPS MP5K-PDW(106m/s & 11.1v lipo) that has been running on a G&P piston for the past two years and i only recently swapped out its gearbox shell with an ICS AK and found the piston perfectly fine. Its been a loaner-gun mostly but i'd dare say 80-150k rounds thru and works fine.

 

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Progress! The multi-shot concept i was working on is one step closer to world-domination. We made a controll-circuit that works and is able to controll an external solenoid that would operate the tappetplate instead of it being operated by the gears. 

Now we just need a proper solenoid and rig it to the gearbox.

[Snoop-Uk]

On the Solenoid front, what kind of space requirements are there? For example on the M56DL theres around what, a full foot of space not used in the front tube(the internal magazine on the real one). If you're using TM shot shells, you could detach the front grip from the action bars, re-inforce the mag tube mounting, and put the solenoid in the mag tube to push the action bars back with each shot. Dependant on size, there might be enough space for a battery(lipo) or at least a trigger control unit. Again with the concept that once the piston follower locks forward it cycles the action. 

 

Would the solenoid be able to push the action bars with enough force is my first question? 

Whats the likely size?

 

Anyone got any specs?

 

Lastly, if theres no space for the batt internally, nice thing that UK army use is the shotty with full RIS, so external batt box is not unusual, same with side saddle shell holder on the back. 

[renegadecow]

I believe he intends to build it for a Saiga 12. If you put the battery in the stock, there's a fair amount of space on the spine where stick batts go.

[swatti]

Soleinoids CAN be quite strong but they are VERY power-hungry when they get bigger. A solenoid can pull back the tappet-plate spring but anything bigger then that, dont bother with these batteries.

[Snoop-Uk]

Must admit saga 12 is quite nice but tempted the to make 3 into a red jacket tri Gatling impossible to carry but with ak600 rnd mags and the centrifugal force will push em into the loader system

[Crimson]

bad news the guy who makes the AA12 casts does not make them anymore and cant be bothered to make more

[Sidewinder-forge]

Still proceeding with my tri shot, it's one of those snail-occasionally-falling-off-a-wall projects - slow but with spurts of movement now n then.

 

[Imperator]

That looks interesting...

Are you planing to machine a three-headed nozzle?
What about air volume? Won't the cilinder be too small to provide enough volume for three barrels?

 

[Sidewinder-forge]

Yes, an adapter to fit on the existing nozzle to split the air three ways into three more standard nozzles that will operate in the Hops.

 

I've no idea if this will work but i'm just going to try and see what happens.

[renegadecow]

With shortened barrels it ought to. But them being so far apart would mean having an awful large outer barrel. Maybe make the hop chambers more compact together as one piece like TM tri-shots?

[Sidewinder-forge]

I will be cutting those barrels down to just over 300mm to fit in the body shell, but not until i've initially tested it to see if this setup is worth pursuing.  The AK Hops i'm using are the most compact design I could find whilst still being able to access the Hop adjust etc.  I've cut the side tabs off and mounted them as close as possible together.

 

The barrel centres are about 20mm apart along the triangle's sides, meaning i'd need an outer barrel with an ID of about 33mm - bit big even for an AA12.   So i'm going to cheat and have the three inners stop at the face of the big block on the front of the AA12's shell with just one of the inners located where the outer barrel sits.

 

 

I suppose I could make up some really fat short suppressory muzzle flash-hider type thing to encompass all the barrels instead of the above.  It wouldn't look too out of place as the whole thing is a big brutal lump anyhow.

[renegadecow]

300mm per barrel still seems a bit too much. Even with a bore up you can only really push sufficient air volume to 600mm or only 2 of the barrels. 200mm tops for 3. For the hop, how about making the middle adjust via TDC? It would make the other two come even closer, maybe enough to squeeze through a 12ga bore.

[Sidewinder-forge]

330mm or so barrel length is simply the max I can have within the space available, I can always remove length later.

 

Like I said the Hops are as physically close together as they can be, also I want to keep the barrels equidistant from each other (with the feed nozzle central) for a better chance of air equalisation.