Man shot dead!.

[chas]

Phoenix: he spoke english, hed been livin there for three years now

He wasnt running from the cops, as his friends thought first, he was running to get on the train.

And a "terrorist" on a bus is as dangerous as in the tube.

[Sledge]

Small point: a man who doesn't stop when told to by armed police is surely "running from the cops?"

 

[Crazy_Harry]

haha, and how many ex-pats from britain living in spain now who have just about mastered how to say "thank you" without resorting to the usual "IF. I. SAY. THIS. SLOWLY. AND LOUDLY. THEY. WILL. UNDER. STAND"

 

look, its like this- the police can shout "stop, police" as much as they like, but on a crowded, noisy and echoey tube platform, its pretty hard to work out who they are shouting AT unless the police make it abundantly clear.

 

If you have your mind on other things, you won't even realise they are shouting at all until, apparently, they sit on you and blow your brains out.

 

Daydreaming is now apparently a capital crime.

 

What doesn't make any sense, apart from why they waited so long, is why they shouted out for this guy to stop if they suspected he was a bomber before they had people in place who could stop him.

 

Thank god he WASN'T a Bomber and realised he'd been rumbled, or he'd have been able to detonate his bomb long before the plice could have thought of stopping him.

 

The police need to seriously re-evaluate their procedures as far as I can see- they left this guy wide open, in a public place, when they suspected him of being a terrorist, and only executed him when he'd pretty much proved he wasn't a bomber by not detonating the moment the police shouted at him.

 

Sorry, I just think the whole thing stinks to high heaven. Its got nothing to do with language, its got EVERYTHING to do with how the police acted.

 

from how this story is panning out, I don't see how their behaviour can really be considered justifiable in the manner in which they operated. prior to the shooting.

 

I don't doubt they shot him believing they had to, and for that, this can be called a tragic incident, but their actions leading up to the shooting are deeply questionable.

[TMC]

What I found funny was that his family is saying they'll sue.

 

SUE.

 

Less than a few days after he dies... and they sue. Oh the grieving process is worthless, let's ask for £$... (Not that they don't deserve compensation, but you have to admit it's pretty sad how they're asking for money so quickly).

[trip]

erm

[Hissing_Sid]

What doesn't make any sense, apart from why they waited so long, is why they shouted out for this guy to stop if they suspected he was a bomber before they had people in place who could stop him.

 

Thank god he WASN'T a Bomber and realised he'd been rumbled, or he'd have been able to detonate his bomb long before the plice could have thought of stopping him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not too sure about that.

 

You can't say "The police followed him around all day without stopping him" and then, in the next breath, say "They saw him running and shot him."

 

It's gotta be either one thing or the other.

 

If they were following him then they must have had reason to be doing it (even if they were wrong). In this case they'd follow him in the hope he might be meeting contacts or heading somewhere important.

When they realised he was heading for a train station they'd have been given permission to challenge him and then shoot him.

 

If we use the second scenario, where a random guy on the street gets challenged by police and then appears to run into a train station it MUST be considered that a suicide bomber would do far more damage inside a crowded building than on a street.

In this case the cop can only act on his own instincts which, in light of the previous days acts, would be to assume the worst.

 

Let's face it, it's not like they decided to invade a country or something.

[Xaccers]

He was mistaken for an asian leaving a block of flats and picked up as a suspect.

He was trailed onto a bus.

At that point, he had no backpack, so probably wouldn't have been viewed as an immediate threat, and the underground has been the primary target so far, busses secondary.

Now as far as I know, we don't have huge teams performing surveilance, so I'd guess three of the team followed him onto the bus to see where he'd go.

There is apparently a network of terrorists in London, and they most likely hoped to find out if this guy would lead them to it, or confirm that he can be excluded from their investigation.

It became apparent that he was planning on entering the tube station, at which point they challenged him.

As to what that challenge was, we don't know.

He ran from the police, leaping over the ticket barrier (not something an innocent law abiding person would do, even if late for their train, as there's one every few minutes anyway)

This would have helped to confirm their greatest fears, that he was planning on detonating something on the train.

They gave chase, caught him on the train and took action.

[Crazy_Harry]

true- but again, its not logical to say that, ok, here's someone who we are pretty sure is up to no good. We follow him round all day. We see him going into a tube station, oh crud, what if he's a bomber? "OI, STOP, POLICE!!!"

 

so, what if he WAS a bomber? they'd been following him long enough to have been able to get a few people in front of him. He wasn't running at the point he went into the tube station, so surely they'd have been time to get people close enough to him before he got on the train.

 

The police shout "stop", he does a runner, they pile on top of him and execute him.

 

why, if they thought he had even the potential to be a suicide bomber, did they alert him to their presence? I can't imagine many things more stupid than that- If he's a suicide bomber, he's willing to lay his life down for the cause. He's not going to say "alright, I'll come quietly, its a fair cop" is he? no.

 

So why didn't they take him quietly? why did they give him the chance to detonate the bomb, even prematurely, by alerting him to police presence before officers were in place to take him down quickly and quietly?

 

What, ultimately, was the purpose of shouting "stop, police" if the suspicion was that he was a bomber? Surely it would have been far more sensible and safe, once the guy had stepped into the station to grab him without first annoncing their presence, so he'd be caught off guard and wouldn't be able to detonate his bomb? Even if they'd grabbed him, flung him to the floor and shot him, this would make more sense, in a truely scary way, than what actually happened.

 

It just doesn't make any sense as it currently stand- why shout?

 

and Xaccers- I see people vaulting turnstiles every single time I use the tube. Its not legal, but its not by any stretch of the imagination uncommon.

[trip]

and dervish just as an asside there ARE "christian terrorists" and unfortunatly they are quite often accepted and can justify their motives in the bible

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I first want to say that i am not christian or muslim.

But due to the ignorance of that statement feel i have to reply.

 

Firstly The God of the bible does not teach to fight with any one.

Jesus teaches in

 

Matthew 5 v 43-44

 

"But i say unto you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you,do good to those who hate you, pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

 

How ever the god of the qur'an teaches the opposite

 

sura 8:57 &9:123

 

Believers are to make war with disbelievers who are in their neighbourhood and deal with them harshly.

sura 4:76-77

True believers fight for allah, but unbelievers fight for idols. allah commands muslims to fight the friends of satan ( unbelievers) he questions those who happily perform worship and pay alms but are reluctant to fight for allah because of their fear of man.

[Sledge]

Rep points to the first person providing quotes showing the exact opposite from the Bible and Qur'an. ie: The Bible inciting war, and the Qur'an promoting peace.

 

[Xaccers]

You and I both get on a bus at the same time. How many stops down the road am I going to get off?

You don't know do you? There's no way you can know.

Even if I say "ticket to 10 stops away please" how do you know I won't get off after 5?

So how are the police going to get people to where he got off before they know about it and get off themselves?

 

I would imagine that up until he fled, they didn't want to take the chance that he was innocent, and his fleeing added to their suspicians enough to warrent their action.

From the sounds of things, they challenged him before the pay barriers, so it could have been even before actually entering the station.

 

How many of those people you've seen vaulting the barriers had come from the residence of suspected terrorists and were therefore themselves suspected of being a terrorist?

 

Remember:

He wasn't shot just for being mistaken for an Asian

He wasn't shot just for leaving the residence of suspected terrorists

He wasn't shot just for wearing a big coat on a hot day

He wasn't shot just for entering a tube station

He wasn't shot just for runnning from the police

 

He was shot because of all those things in combination.

[HaVoC]

so, what if he WAS a bomber? they'd been following him long enough to have been able to get a few people in front of him. He wasn't running at the point he went into the tube station, so surely they'd have been time to get people close enough to him before he got on the train.

Depends if they knew he was going to the tube or not, which I'd guess they didn't, hence the panic situation they found themselves in.

 

They probably had people ahead of him on the street, but not in the station. When he ducked into the station, I'd imagine it was the equivalent of water running through the gaps between your fingers.

 

What, ultimately, was the purpose of shouting "stop, police" if the suspicion was that he was a bomber? Surely it would have been far more sensible and safe, once the guy had stepped into the station to grab him without first annoncing their presence, so he'd be caught off guard and wouldn't be able to detonate his bomb? Even if they'd grabbed him, flung him to the floor and shot him, this would make more sense, in a truely scary way, than what actually happened.

 

It just doesn't make any sense as it currently stand- why shout?

I'd imagine there's something in the law that says they have to give a warning before they shoot, apart from in a few situations (e.g. a police sniper on a roof, surveying a bank heist situation, and checking for the perpetrators attempting to slip out of the building - obviously he's not going to yell down a warning from up on the top of the building).

 

Since he was only under surveillance, and had not been seen committing a crime (as in the bank heist example), I presume they HAD to warn him before opening fire.

 

You and I both get on a bus at the same time. How many stops down the road am I going to get off?

You don't know do you? There's no way you can know.

Even if I say "ticket to 10 stops away please" how do you know I won't get off after 5?

So how are the police going to get people to where he got off before they know about it and get off themselves?

 

I would imagine that up until he fled, they didn't want to take the chance that he was innocent, and his fleeing added to their suspicians enough to warrent their action.

From the sounds of things, they challenged him before the pay barriers, so it could have been even before actually entering the station.

 

How many of those people you've seen vaulting the barriers had come from the residence of suspected terrorists and were therefore themselves suspected of being a terrorist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly - I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Hissing_Sid]

why, if they thought he had even the potential to be a suicide bomber, did they alert him to their presence? I can't imagine many things more stupid than that- If he's a suicide bomber, he's willing to lay his life down for the cause. He's not going to say "alright, I'll come quietly, its a fair cop" is he? no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, to be clear, you're saying that the police over-reacted by shooting an innocent man but it would have been ok to just whack him in the street without challenging him first?

 

Surely they did everything by the book?

They challenged him and then they took action.

 

 

 

The only thing that might've screwed the cops up is if it turned out that the guy was listening to a walkman and that's why he didn't hear them.

I'd have to say, though, that if they WERE following him they're probably bright enough to notice if he's wearing earphones.

 

Given that it turned out he was an illegal refugee I think it's far more likely he got as far as hearing "Police. Stop!" and legged it, thinking he might be in for deportation. He probably ran into the station hoping to catch a train and lose the cops.

Not a smart move, given the previous weeks events.

[Sledge]

Why is it that, no matter how someone tries to justify the suspects actions, I find myself thinking of Bill Hicks? "Did you feel that? The Earth just got lighter. We lost a moron."

 

[trip]

[rizzo]

Rep points to the first person providing quotes showing the exact opposite from the Bible and Qur'an. ie: The Bible inciting war, and the Qur'an promoting peace.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Bible-

And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

- Deuteronomy (ch. XIX, v. 21) [Punishment]

 

Qu'ran

Hate your enemy mildly; he may become your friend one day.

Hadith

 

Interesting article

[Crazy_Harry]

aha,

 

aha,

 

ahum.

 

so he's a moron for running for a train, not hearing the police challenge, and having the audacity to look mildly asian in london?

 

well, I guess the worlds going to get a hell of a lot lighter if those are the definitions of moron now.

 

Still makes no sense to me- why challenge him at the station but not the bus? at what point did he switch from being a suspect to a threat, given that he was travelling through london on public transport all day? and again, why shout the challenge? If you think he's enough of a threat to kill him when he's on the ground and unable to move, surely they must have decided before he ran that the potential for him being a bomber was pretty high, in which case why wait for him to get on and off a bus and into a tube station before acting, and why shout a warning alerting him to your presence when you aren't close enough to prevent him from blowing himself up?

 

personally, I'd be interested to know if he was actually running BEFORE the challenge was given, but thats just a suspicion...

[Sledge]

Cheers, Rizzo. Rep point offer now closed.

 

[trip]

Qu'ran

Hate your enemy mildly; he may become your friend one day.

Hadith

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

any kind of HATE is still HATE

 

don't think that one stands up tbh and your bible quote is from the old testament and the common day chistian discards the laws from the old testament for the followings of jesus that of the new testament

 

oh and muslims also believe in the old testament i believe might be wrong

[chas]

Oh, how funny! An innocent person got killed! Sledge, you are so damn funny!

You cant be a suspect if you have absolutely nothing that makes you a suspect: a brazilian guy is late for a new job and is shot when running to get on the train. The cops did it wrong all the time: It starts with putting under suspicion a brazilian electrician who had nothing to do with anything, letting him get on a train, but not on a bus; and, finally, misunderstanding the guys' starting to run in the tube.

Are you really so smart to think he didnt stop when shouted "STOP, POLICE!" at him? Com`on! You are just justifying the cops unprofessionality. What if it happened to a friend of yours?

 

Victims are only guilty of their own injuries/death in one case: suicide/attempt.

[Sledge]

I'm sorry, Chas, but you're ramblings make it appear you are drunk. "Are you really so smart that he didnt stop when shouted "STOP, POLICE!" at him? Com`on! You are just justifying the cops unprofessionality." What on Earth does that mean? What does my smartness have to do with the man who was killed?

 

"What if it happened to a friend of yours?" Amazingly, anyone I consider a friend, is smart enough not to DISOBEY ARMED POLICE OFFICERS.

 

Innocent person? Apparently so. Moron? Yes.

 

[Hissing_Sid]

Probably wasn't ideal. The cops might have been lax in their following of the guy but when he headed for the station they just responded the best way they could.

 

If it's a racist angle you're after, I'm a WASP and I'd sure-as-f*ck make sure I did exactly what I was told by the police when, well, anywhere at the moment. Anybody with half a brain knows that spooking a cop, especially a plain-clothes one, probably isn't a good idea at the moment.

[Xaccers]

any kind of HATE is still HATE

 

don't think that one stands up tbh and your bible quote is from the old testament  and the common day chistian discards the laws from the old testament  for the followings of jesus that of the new testament

 

oh and muslims also believe in the old testament i believe might be wrong

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but the content of the new testiment was decided upon by a bunch of men at the treaty of nicea.

So we don't know what actual words of Rabbi Joshua were excluded by them.

 

Yes, muslims do believe in the OT, and in Rabbi Joshua and his teachings too, they just don't believe he was the son of god, believing instead that the jewish elders made that lie up in order to get him killed.

However, just as many Christians really only follow parts of the NT and totally disregard the OT, many muslims too only follow sections of the koran, or do not study the OT/NT

[xRAZERx]

Oh, how funny! An innocent person got killed! Sledge, you are so damn funny!

You cant be a suspect if you have absolutely nothing that makes you a suspect: a brazilian guy is late for a new job and is shot when running to get on the train. The cops did it wrong all the time: It starts with putting under suspicion a brazilian electrician who had nothing to do with anything, letting him get on a train, but not on a bus; and, finally, misunderstanding the guys' starting to run in the tube.

Are you really so smart to think  he didnt stop when shouted "STOP, POLICE!" at him? Com`on! You are just justifying the cops unprofessionality. What if it happened to a friend of yours?

 

Victims are only guilty of their own injuries/death in one case: suicide/attempt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm assuming you're not an armed police officer whose ever been faced with this kind of decision?

 

You can be a suspect if you've done absoultly nothing to make you a suspect. Hell even I was a suspect today when I got a hard stop done on my and searched. Did I run away? No, why because they were armed police (in uniform admittedly).

 

The reason he was let on the bus is because they were waiting for an armed unit to arrive and make the arrest. The surveillance team were unarmed...

[trip]

what i meant by the two scipture from the qu'ran is that with things like that in there who is surprised these people use the qu'ran as an excuse to blow people up

 

rizzo i'm promise to read your link at bit later thank for that