PlasticMag Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 sniper - I know they ship uniforms, ask them about the monocular, and explain your situation. I'm confident they'll let it out if they can. See: http://www.redsoldier.com/International-Shipping If nothing else, RUSMILITARY.COM (based in the UK) has the NVMT as a standalone for 199 GBP. EDIT - Cali, have you tested the IR illuminator Yukon offers? Link to post Share on other sites
W.K.Shuridys Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 If it isnt gen3 Dont buy it All i have to say based on my personal experiences And dont leave with out a IR Surefire, Which makes it 10x better.... gen 2+ maybe, but anything under Your really missing alot <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One thing they won't be missing is a hole in their bank account. Not everyone here is a rich boy with the scratch to drop on a toy they'll use even less often than their guns. If you're looking at a good gen 1 unit, Yukon is generally regarded as being the best quality and I don't think you can really go wrong with them. I've heard nothing but bad things about ATN though and wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Here is a GREAT resource: http://www.nightvisionforums.com Most of the discussion is geared towards high end units but there is also a lot of discussion, pics, and reviews of decent gen 1 units. Most importantly, they won't look down on you if you're not well off enough to afford anything better than gen 1. Link to post Share on other sites
The Waco Kid Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Why bother with Gen 1 NV: Because it's cheap & they are freely available in the UK. Even Gen 2 kit is over priced here. Gen 3+ is "difficult" to get in Britain & like most other stuff has a crazy ramped up price. Especially when you find out it's been made here shipped to the US & then the company will not sell to a UK customer.... Uses for Gen 1 NV: Primarily static observation of a fairly open area outside where you can "get your eye in" and cover an arc without using an illuminator. This can be a very effective use of a cheap NVS when combined with a SAW or DMR. I'd recommend a weapon mounted sight rather than a goggle/monocular for this as it will stay aligned with the bore easier when lying prone. Secondly an ambush/blocking position indoors where you can set up IR lighting away from your position & illuminating your opponents route of advance. Basically install an IR source at a junction or doorway that highlights anyone moving through it. At the fairly short range with a simple NVG the target will be lit but your own position will not. Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Andrews Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Note on the M1, though. With Gen3's, it does a great job illuminating and the momentary thumbswitch is great. In the NV thread at AR15.com, I believe the Surefire was generally tested to have some of the best performance, while the Pentagon IR flashlight was pretty bad. With my Gen 1+ Yukon though, the Surefire is horrible. I guess the Yukon just isn't sensitive enough, so it only seems to illuminate within 10-15 feet with it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yukon being Russian technology based works on a different IR frequency, to say a Gen 2 or 3. Hence why some IR illuminators appear to work better than others. Gen 1 is marginally better than nothing, but a decent pair of binoculars works better and is a lot cheaper. However, if you ever get the chance to use Gen 3, you will realise just how much you would sell your little brother for! Link to post Share on other sites
Cali Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 EDIT - Cali, have you tested the IR illuminator Yukon offers? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Yukon NV unit I have (which appears to be the one Kerberos linked to) has one built-in, which does a decent job. If you push the button just lightly enough I think you can effective use the default on/off illuminator button as a momentary, it's just very tricky to do so on my unit. If you're talking about the stand-alone IR Illuminator, I've seen it but haven't used it. It appears by Tom Andrew's post the issue is the IR frequency. I knew there were various frequencies used, but it didn't occur to me to check the Yukon's freq vs. the Surefire's. Tom, thanks for the info, that explains my issue. Well, I went out just now and took a series of pictures using the devices I mentioned. I MUST STRESS, these pictures do not 100% accurately reflect what it will look like in person with the naked eye using each of these devices, but it may give you a rough idea how they may work relative to eachother. I used a Kodak V705 digi cam by just putting the camera lense up against the NV lense, nothing fancy, no special adapters or anything so these pics aren't great, sorry. No special camera settings like long exposure either, just the 'general' setting. I tried to get the sharpest focus by eye before taking the picture. No zoom was used, although I have an optional 3x lense for the Yukon, and the Weaver has a button which gives you instantaneous zoom, 2x maybe? That IS a nice feature, but the image isn't sharp. No IR illumination was used, since there was a lot of amibent light. Probably too much for these test, really, but I didn't have many options where I live. Ambient light, no flash. Note that in person, you can see much more light! Yukon Gen 1+. The image CAN be a bit sharper, I guess I didn't have the NV focused or the camera didn't focus well, but it still does a decent job illustrating the fisheye effect I don't like on it and the narrow FOV compared to the PVS-14. If I use the 3x lense, the fish eye effect is either much much reduced or gone completely. Weaver Nightview. Uses a different method to generate the image, google it if you want to read up about it, I can't exactly recall it enough to explain the technology here. PVS-14. Gen 3. A much wider field of view than the other 2, sharper better image, etc. as is to be expected. If anyone's interested, I can try to go to a location that has less ambient light which will probably separate the image quality even more, but it may be a few days before I can arrange that with the holidays. I also have an indoors (no light but ambient) CQB game at the end of the month, I can try to take comparison shots there too. There are some rooms that appear to have zero light. Link to post Share on other sites
skyler8158 Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 Cali, do IR illuminators work with the Weaver technology? That image looks good for a $190 unit. Also, if possible, can you take a picture with the Yukon unit w/ an IR illuminator on? Link to post Share on other sites
kerberos_ Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 Well done Cali. The PVS-14. Gen 3 is making me moist, though I agree the weaver looks pretty nifty compared to the Yukon pic. CAn you link to the exact model and maybe why the pic is square? I know that sounds a daft Q, but I always thought it would be round. Link to post Share on other sites
Cali Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 OK, bear with me. I played airsoft all day, I'm tired and I've got a headache, so hopefully this post is clear. Only reason I'm doing it now is because if I didn't do it tonight, I know with New Years and some work related stuff it may be a while before I can do this. Cali, do IR illuminators work with the Weaver technology? That image looks good for a $190 unit. Also, if possible, can you take a picture with the Yukon unit w/ an IR illuminator on? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, illuminators work with the Weaver. It has an integrated one that has 100 steps from lowest to the highest setting. Here are some images I took tonight. It was in my room, lights off, some light barely coming in from the hallway. With the naked eye, there wasn't enough to see the guns on the wall about 20' in front of me. No IR Illumination - Obviously, almost no image. Integrated IR Illuminator, lowest setting - I had to turn up the gain to get it this bright. Integrated IR Illuminator, higher setting - I thought it was on the highest setting because I thought it had 20 steps and it didn't seem to be getting any brighter, but the website says 100 steps. Higher settings would probably help if I was outside trying to see further than 20'. If I lived somewhere out in the woods without all the lights, I'd test it but I can't. You can see the image is sort of washed out in places and I had to turn down the gain because the rack is stainless steel and there was a lot of reflection. No integrated IR Illumination, but with A Surefire M1 IR Illuminator - Sorry it came out fuzzy, but you can definitely see the M1 was effective. I'd like to do some distance shots to see which works better past maybe 50 yards or more but I'd need to find a pitch black place to do that. I actually could have done it at the building we were playing at today, maybe I'll try to at the next game. Yukon with it's integrated Illuminator - FYI, the Yukon's image is better and sharper than it appears in that picture and the previous ones I posted. I don't know why, but my camera can't seem to focus well on the image when I try to take a picture with it. I even tried take a bunch of pictures outside again tonight, but the digi picture was always fuzzy even though it was sharp when I looked through it. I think you can tell though, that it gives more detail than the Weaver. I don't like the image the Weaver gives, personally. It always seems muddy/fuzzy no matter how much I've tried focusing, especially when trying to view things at a distance. The buildings across the street in the earler images I posted are 55 yards from where I was standing and you can't see any detail in them even with the built in zoom. With the Yukon you can get good detail even without the 3x lense. I think the Weaver looks a little worse in person than in that picture because the image, but maybe that's just me. The PVS-14. Gen 3 is making me moist, though I agree the weaver looks pretty nifty compared to the Yukon pic. CAn you link to the exact model and maybe why the pic is square? I know that sounds a daft Q, but I always thought it would be round. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, there's no comparison. The Weaver is good for the price, but I'm surprised at the claims that it's as good as Gen 3. HERE is the the unit. That link reminds me of some of the nice features it does have, like the video out port. I forgot it comes with the 3 filters it talks about. I never used them beyond testing it when I first got it. You can also screw in standard camera bipods in the bottom. The image is square because I think it uses video camera night vision-type technology. Instead of a night vision tube, it has an LCD-type screen that it's generating the image on. The website says, "High sensitivity Sony™ imager" and "525 horizontal by 420 vertical" image pixels. Also probably the reason it doesn't seem as sharp as the others to me. Link to post Share on other sites
skyler8158 Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Thank you very much for the help, I'm going to go with a Yukon. You mention that Surefire IRs are at a different wavelength, so prehaps a Yukon IR illuminator to mount to my rifle is in order... Link to post Share on other sites
Cali Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Well, get the Yukon first and check it out, you may be happy with the illuminator built into the Yukon. That's what I used in that last picture. The button for the illuminator is conveniently placed so you can use the unit one-handed, turning it on or off. You may want to use it that way, instead of weapon mounted. I'm not sure if the frequency is different or if the Gen 1 just isn't sensitive enough for the M1 to make much of difference beyond 10-20' or so. And in case I didn't mention it before as it may be a factor in your decision that using the Yukon rifle mount, it will NOT co-witness with an Eotech, it mounts higher. You may be able to get a riser or something, depending on what red-dot/sight you use. Link to post Share on other sites
skyler8158 Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 I actually plan on getting the head mounted kit. I was going to get the G&P IR filter for the Surefire I already have, and mount it to my rifle, and use it as a complementary IR source to work with the IR built into the Yukon. Link to post Share on other sites
kerberos_ Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Cali, I assume buying the additional 3x lens, the FOV (field of view) increases substantially? Thats my understanding, which could be wrong. After the second set of pics, yes, the Yukon looks far superior. Just the FOV isnt great. Maybe thats because its so close to target? Link to post Share on other sites
W.K.Shuridys Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Noooooooo, anytime you increase the magnification your field of view is DECREASED. If maximum FOV is your objective use 1X only! Link to post Share on other sites
Grimm Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Another 100EUR more, and you get the kit in binocular! Link to post Share on other sites
kerberos_ Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Noooooooo, anytime you increase the magnification your field of view is DECREASED. If maximum FOV is your objective use 1X only! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmmm I dont mean the magnification as such, but the actual lens? I know what you're saying, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the 3x lens for this gives you a wider FOV. Link to post Share on other sites
kerberos_ Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Additional: Maybe I did pick it up wrong. Gives two different FOV depending on zoom I guess http://www.gadgets.co.uk/item/YNV/Yukon-NV...sion-Scope.html The NVMT1 is the smallest and lightest of the NVMT variants. It offers 2.0x image magnification and a wide 30° field of view. Dimensions: 130 x 82 x 60mm Weight: 380g Image Magnification: 2.0x Field Of View: 30° Max Relative viewing range: 0.5-110m The NVMT2 is slightly larger and heavier than the NVMT1. It offers 3.0x image magnification and a 20° field of view. Dimensions: 155 x 87 x 60mm Weight: 500g Image Magnification: 3.0x Field Of View: 20° Max Relative viewing range: 0.5-135m The NVMT3 is slightly larger and heavier than the NVMT2. It offers 4.0x image magnification and a 15° field of view. Dimensions: 191 x 87 x 60mm Weight: 600g Image Magnification: 4.0x Field Of View: 15° Max Relative viewing range: 1-300m Link to post Share on other sites
Cali Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 OK, I've been drinking, so I hope this post is clear, LOL. Skyler, I have a Rico Surefire replica weaponlight and a Surefire IR filter. I'll try to take pictures later but as I mentioned before it may be a while. I'm curious to see if that setup is better or worse than the Surefire M1. I'd guess worse only because the M1 is a dedicated IR illuminator, but who knows. Kerberos, Yes, the FOV of the Yukon appears to be inferior to the PVS-14. The effect is magnified in these pictures because of a couple of issues. In the first series of pictures where I took pictures of the parking lot/cars, I had the rifle eyepiece on the unit. It is longer than the standard eyepiece, which means the camera was further from the image and the FOV could be artificially narrower. Hopefully I explained that well, I've been drinking, LOL. In the second set of pictures (my gun rack), I realized my issue and switched to the much shorter eyepiece. I had meant to mention that before when I posted the earlier pictures, sorry about that. I remember posting that when I was really tired and not thinking that clearly just like now, hah, so I forgot to mention it. I'm not sure what you mean by the 3x lense have a superior FOV, by default it's a 'closer' view and a smaller FOV, if I follow correctly. However, I think I mentioned before that the fisheye effect seems to be reduced. Oh, and please don't use the last picture I posted above to imply that the FOV is narrow "Yukon with it's integrated Illuminator" although it looks that way. I also should have mentioned, you only can see a small circle because (1) I'm so close that the illuminator only shows a small circle, and (2) in real life you can faintly see the area around the circle illuminated by the circle in the pic, but because of my camera, the picture doesn't show that. The parking lot pictures are probably a better set to determine FOV. It may be a bit better than those pictures, though, because of the rifle eyepiece issue I mentioned in the previous paragraph. I saw that you linked to several different units that have various magnification. FYI, I bought my unit off ebay, along with the rifle kit linked to agbove. From personal experience I can tell you that those units you're considering seem to be the same unit with just different lenses, which can be replaced easily, you unscrew one and screw in the one you want. I have both a standard lense (1x) and a 3x lense, as well as a standard eyepiece and the longer rifle mount one which has a rubber eyepiece. So, you may already know this, but you should be able to buy any of the Yukons you're interested in, then find a place (ebay, Optics Planet, etc.) to buy a different magnification lense to swap out if that interests you. The Weaver Nightview's FOV is also inferior to the PVS-14, but one reason is because the default view is 1.5x magnification. The rectangular image plays a part in the perceived smaller FOV I think, too. Hopefully all that was coherent. I was drinking tonight. Link to post Share on other sites
lord_marmite Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I could never afford NVGs let alone justify having them! O well, looks like i'll be sticking with poor mans NVGs (a bag of carrots) Link to post Share on other sites
docs90 Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 all info needed can be found here , as i found this site very very usefull when buying my gen2+ milspec for $1190 www.nightvisionforums.com register and ask there very very helpfull Link to post Share on other sites
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