YE MP5

[Sale]

yeah what was said, you cant just crank up the pressure to get more power out of it, the only ones where you can do that were pretty irresponsably built.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not an added feature that the guns stop working when the input pressure is higher. It's just the way they work.

 

What are these "irresponsably built" guns you are talking about, can you mention one classic rifle that works this way? Anyways it's not irresponsible to make airsofts that are easy to upgrade. The people who use them are responsible for what they do. These things aren't toys, the age limit for purchase is 18 in most countries.

 

-Sale

[TDS]

What are these "irresponsably built" guns you are talking about, can you mention one classic rifle that works this way? Anyways it's not irresponsible to make airsofts that are easy to upgrade. The people who use them are responsible for what they do. These things aren't toys, the age limit for purchase is 18 in most countries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

offhand, I can remember a digicon rifle shooting in excess of 800 with a hammer spring swap, (after the swap it can be turned up and down at will). there are a couple others that can fire even harder.

 

I do think its part of the responsability of the manufacturer to build weakness into a gun so that the toy cannot be pushed to lethal power levels rather easily. for safteys safe, and some of the more ignorant fields in the US (at least) have tried to put heavy resistictions on external gas supply guns through irrational fear of cranking it up on the field. Its not irresponsable to make something easily upgradable, but there should be something in the system to make sure the user doesnt get too out of hand with it....

 

anyways, way off topic, an escort gun could never be made to shoot that hard, if your interested in getting one, you know who to contact allready, but you wont see me posting how to get a rifle to shoot that hard anywhere.

[AustinWolv]

offhand, I can remember a digicon rifle shooting in excess of 800 with a hammer spring swap, (after the swap it can be turned up and down at will). there are a couple others that can fire even harder.

 

I do think its part of the responsability of the manufacturer to build weakness into a gun so that the toy cannot be pushed to lethal power levels rather easily. for safteys safe, and some of the more ignorant fields in the US (at least) have tried to put heavy resistictions on external gas supply guns through irrational fear of cranking it up on the field.  Its not irresponsable to make something easily upgradable, but there should be something in the system to make sure the user doesnt get too out of hand with it....

 

anyways, way off topic, an escort gun could never be made to shoot that hard, if your interested in getting one, you know who to contact allready, but you wont see me posting how to get a rifle to shoot that hard anywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good job, you took someone else's info (regarding how the Digicon products can be used at insane power levels) from CA.net and used it here.

[Sale]

And a Digicon NBB hardly classifies as the type of gun we were talking about: Classic rifles with external supply. You know, like BV operated ones? They are the ones that are accused of being capable of going from 400 fps to 600 fps with the turn of a regulator - which isn't true.

 

I knew you were going to bring up Digicon because of their questionable reputation, so I didn't mention it first. Unlike you, I have personal experience of upgrading a Digicon (Desert) Eagle. While the magazine does take unregulated CO2 at 800 PSI without bursting, the gun seizes to operate completely with that magazine. With the stronger red gas (200 PSI) and a 200% hammer spring I was still well below unsafe velocities. It's not quite as simple as some people like to put it. The funny thing is that these stories about incredibly powerful Digicons float around, but no-one has really laid out how the guns were upgraded and what parts were used. If special parts from custom shops were involved, it doesn't matter much what the original gun was.

 

It's much easier to push a normal gas rifle to shoot very hot by swapping springs and O-rings in addition to increasing pressure. But no matter how hard you upgrade an airsoft, they are still weaker than air rifles, which can be bought easily and don't need upgrades. So much for the usefulness of an airsoft gun in a criminal act - except for looks.

 

Saying the manufacturer has to put a "weak link" in the system are the words of nannying soccer moms. Complete BS if you ask me. That attitude is the reason why our precious toys are made of pot metal and plastic instead of durable materials. That attitude has also given you orange tips for airsoft guns, and lots of other restrictions.

The next time you pick up a lightweight plastic pistol with an orange front end, go stand in front of a mirror with that sad thing. Look yourself in the eye and say to yourself: "This is for my own good."

 

-Sale

[playa]

+1 Sale. A VERY smart comment, especially about the orange tip. Kudos.

[TDS]

Saying the manufacturer has to put a "weak link" in the system are the words of nannying soccer moms. Complete BS if you ask me. That attitude is the reason why our precious toys are made of pot metal and plastic instead of durable materials. That attitude has also given you orange tips for airsoft guns, and lots of other restrictions.

The next time you pick up a lightweight plastic pistol with an orange front end, go stand in front of a mirror with that sad thing. Look yourself in the eye and say to yourself: "This is for my own good."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I was more thinking along the lines of countries that have even more restictive airsoft/airgun/firearm laws, and people can get them through, then do bad things with them. zinc gearboxes, plastic bodies and such, are just manufacturers trying to turn a greater profit.

[Sale]

Well you certainly haven't kept an eye on the "evolution" of airsofts. They used to have really good materials but there are laws against that now. Adding complicated "weak links" always takes efforts in the R&D section, because you can't "overbuild" the gun at all but it needs to be reliable and last a long time within the specs.

 

Digicon doesn't have these features so it's more easy to push past the regular skirmish limits, but if someone sets his mind to it, any piece of airsoft equipment can be modified to shoot just as hard. But the key word is again "modify". Digicon guns are safe to operate and shoot 1 joule out of the box with HFC134a. To dumb it down: They are built in a responsible manner, and intended for completely legal activities with no "dangerous features" added.

 

It doesn't matter how low you set the limit. In the UK it's 1 joule but it still is incredibly complicated to upgrade guns to an actually unsafe velocity. Sure it's easy to go past the legal limit even by accident, but that doesn't suddenly make the gun super lethal. For comparison, a 9mm pistol puts out 600 joules. A "mere" .22 LR is 100 joules, and it's considered too weak for anything but target shooting. An air rifle is typically 10 joules. Saying that a 6 joule gun is "insane" and "lethal" is a thought that makes me giggle for a change. That's the energy of a 0.2 g BB at 800 fps.

 

-Sale

[HOPPERSAN]

Just a quick reply i just got one of these 2 months ago and i absolutely love it and yes I do now about all types of airsoft my collection is over 14,000 U.S dollars and i would have to say that this is my favorite gun . now you must take into mind that it is not a out door gun in stock form but in cqb with the report and recoil its the perfect weapon you forget about the hose as soon as you pull the trigger also the is nothing funner than shooting some one while under water and rising out of the river to complete the kill, the first rounds did not hit him , but they did fire fully submerged (bad *albatross*)

[rottenotto]

Sure, Redwolf says that the hopup is adjustible..........but is it ??

 

They also said the fps is 240 (yaaay!!).

 

The SUN PROJECT M16 carbine (escort system) had a fixed hop and its miserable.......the bb's nose dive at 50 feet.....springers have more range.

 

The SP M16 was the biggest waste of money I spent last year.

 

And as one poster alluded to already, the "custom upgrades" are offered by one guy who is glacially slow at even replying to questions let alone actually DOING the mods........which also cost a fortune.

 

I spent less money on my real steel M4 - than many have spent on their full blown SP M16's with all options.

[dcentity2000]

I am EXTREMELY dubious about this.

 

The moulds are gone, there's a limited number of YE MP5's left and they're being slowly upgraded with the ESCORT system. From what I've heard, none of these retailers actually have any and won't be able to supply anywhere near as many units as there will be demand for.

 

I'm currently patiently waiting in a que of people who have paid for one of these already; they're marketed on classicairsoft.net.

 

 

 

Rich::

[AustinWolv]

Sure, Redwolf says that the hopup is adjustible..........but is it ??

Yes, the Escort MP5 has adjustable hopup.  It works quite well. 

 

They also said the fps is 240 (yaaay

They don't know what they are talking about.

 

The SUN PROJECT M16 carbine (escort system) had a fixed hop and its miserable.......the bb's nose dive at 50 feet.....springers have more range.

Mine is adjustable and ranges beautifullly.  At just under 400fps/.2g, it ranges as well as long inner barrel AEGs at 400fps/.2g if not better.

 

The SP M16 was the biggest waste of money I spent last year.

This thread is about the Escort MP5, is it not?  SP M16 is different gun.

 

And as one poster alluded to already, the "custom upgrades" are offered by one guy who is glacially slow at even replying to questions let alone actually DOING the mods........which also cost a fortune.

The mods to make it shoot well cost well less than $200.  Depending on the work queue, it can be slow.  Funny thing is that sniperx can be caught on AIM almost every night.  Sure, the wait is slow relative to people expecting to jump on a big retailer's site and have the item 4 days later.  But none of those retailers will support you like sniperx either.

 

I spent less money on my real steel M4 - than many have spent on their full blown SP M16's with all options.

So with shipping, gun, and the few necessary mods, your real M4 (Colt, I doubt) costs less than $750?  Full-blown, sure, that adds more, but that is YOUR choice, and that price is still in the same ballpark as a quality AR15.  Why are you trying to compare the Escort MP5 to the SP M16?  As pointed out numerous times earlier, they are not the same. 

You can get real AKs for less than $300, right?  So are you going to create threads ragging on pretty much every airsoft AK out there?  If not, that is hypocritical to bag on the SP M16 that YOU chose to ugprade completely then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In bold:

[HOPPERSAN]

AUSTINWOLV IS 100% CORRECT

[Sale]

Comparing the Escort MP5 to Sun Project M16A1 Carbine is plain stupid.

 

-They are made by different manufacturers.

-They operate in a slightly different manner, even though the principle is "Escort".

 

So it's like bashing a TM PSG-1 without ever seeing one, because "I had a CA MP5 and the hop up was bad". In any other thread (about guns that people actually know about) this kind of nonsense would be shot down instantly and the posters negrepped for saying false information.

 

Even the Youth Engineering vs. Escort comparison doesn't stand. Each and every one of the Escort MP5s are hand assembled and tuned before shipping, so once you have the gun it will work. No upgrading needed when you pull it out of the box. It takes TM magazines and has a revised adjustable hop up, which were the main problems with Youth Engineering (I have one). Even the YE shoots over 300 fps reliably with sane pressures so fps is not a concern with these guns.

 

-Sale

[lsniperxl]

Sale and Austinwolv: You guys get your paychecks yet?.......Yeah thats a joke. Seriously though, you should be on the books.

 

LEave the SPs out of this thread please, they are very different in quality and production than the Escort. Its like buying a Ford Mustang GT vs a Mcclaren(sp). Both are nice, both are fast...which one has more time and owrk in it though.

 

I think the Redwolf/Escort issue was well summed up.

 

I would like to address another potentially damaging thing here though.

 

Digicon. Sale, I know you're a mild fan and little can change that. What they are doing now is MORE wrong than ignoring a plee to engineer a safety mechanism. The new law in Japan states no gun can shoot over .98j, modified or stock. This was done to catch companies not complying with ASGK or who are operating outside ASGK (Digicon). The wonderful people at Digicon just last week released a letter to all shops and distributors. Translated...it can be humorly paraphrased into "Neener neener, we found a loop hole...you didn't say what BB we had to use or what temperature the gas had to be at so we will continue to do as we are doing until these are specified." While it is the responsibility of the government to word their laws properly, it should also be the responsibility of the manufacturer to abide by the NATURE of the rules in order to insure future commerce. By screwing with this it could give anti-toy gun groups here in Japan yet another nail to pound in the coffin. It would not be too difficult for the government to say...no more toy guns are to be manufactured or sold. Sale, while I do understand your feelings toward manufacturers right and personal responsibility....its time they put their chubby little heads down and did whats necessary for the greater good. By tempting fate they have the potential to shut down all business for themselves and the rest of the industry. If they installed a safety system they may lose sales (Digicons only claim to fame is the ability to fire at uncomfortably high pressure), but if they snub their nose at the authorities they will be shut down outright with the rest of us.

[Ubar]

good job it's the non-jappanese manufacturers which are bringing out the appealing guns these days then eh

[AustinWolv]

good job it's the non-jappanese manufacturers which are bringing out the appealing guns these days then eh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Such as? In the majority of cases, the only guns I can think of coming out of non-Japanese manufacturers are just copies of Japanese innovation.

 

A couple offerings of new guns (L85, UMP) hardly constitutes advocating the Japanese makers going away.

[Ubar]

AK series from guarder in taiwan, G&G bringing out new AKs, VFC bringing out HK416 SCAR FNC AK74 etc, CA bringing out improved versions of the marui aug and g3, Madbull's grenades and model480

 

And while yes as you say, all of these are based on basic japanese designs in some way or another, doesnt alter the fact you get decent end product.

 

It was a bit of a flippant comment before, but thinking about it, if I was going to lose Japanese manufacturers who cater far less to foreigners far less or the other HK and TW companies, then I know which I would choose. As it is I don't think it will get to that stage in the forseeable future

[Sale]

And while yes as you say, all of these are based on basic japanese designs in some way or another, doesnt alter the fact you get decent end product.

That fact, not. But the other fact remains that if you take away the japanese base designs, you end up with nothing. A lot of the time these "improved" products are less reliable, even though they are built from exactly the same parts except for reinforced material. There hardly is R&D involved in choosing what kind of plastic you use for the AUG stock, when compared to the amount of designing the guys at Tokyo Marui did for the original design. These taiwanese and chinese companies simply couldn't offer the products they sell at that price if they had designed them from the ground up.

 

SniperX: I'm a bit of an idealistic personality. No need to put me on the payroll for making observations and bringing my opinions, views and sometimes experience into the public. As you might remember, I also make negative comments when I disagree with your policy. The best thing you can do is believe that they are my honest opinions and it's never anything personal.

 

This idealism also is the key to my posts: Sure, Digicon are stubborn and their actions might end up harming all airsoft manufacturers in Japan, but it shouldn't be like that. If some realsteel manufacturers refuse to put trigger locks on their guns, they might get bad publicity in the US, but again my point is that the end user should be responsible for what they do. The manufacturer is only responsible if their products are defective and dangerous.

 

Maybe in your view the "greater good" is keeping airsoft manufacturers alive, and I completely understand your stance there because you're working in the industry. In my view the greater good is a society where people aren't nannied. We might need some martyrs like Digidon, who eventually will be put out of business, based on what you're telling me about the situation in Japan.

 

By the way you didn't comment when I told you I put unregulated CO2 in the Digicon Eagle and it wouldn't fire at all. A technician told me to get harder O-rings. I won't try that, because the plastic gas router blew off the magazine, shattering the entire feeding nozzle and top of the BB compartment of the magazine, when I used a "bigger hammer" on the valve. Even if it resulted in a 800 fps weapon, it's still only 6 joules. Hardly lethal, when paintball guns are 14 joules stock, and can be loaded with aluminum or glass ammo. As a conclusion I'm very sceptic about this "reputation" that Digicon guns have. Not that they couldn't be upgraded harder than other airsofts, but there's still a long way to these actually lethal guns I've heard about.

 

-Sale

[Ubar]

hence why i 'admitted' they were based on japanese designs...

[snorkelman]

take out the japanese manufacs and you take out any radical inovation

 

You dont kill off new models completely (SA80, AKSUs, RPKs etc) but you do restrict what those companies can come up with without having to go to the expense of working out how to squeeze gearbox A into new model B, or the expense of something that requires a whole new gearbox/layout that an existing design cant be shoehorned into.

 

though that argument still exists wether the Japanese get forced out the game by legislation or simply priced out the game by having clones of whatever they do go to the effort of designing, released on shorter and shorter lead times

 

(ie ultimately reaching a stage where it just isnt worth R&Ding a new desing if theres no time to recoup the costs on its initial sales period before the clones of it flood onto the market at a half or a third of the price)

[AustinWolv]

That fact, not. But the other fact remains that if you take away the japanese base designs, you end up with nothing. A lot of the time these "improved" products are less reliable, even though they are built from exactly the same parts except for reinforced material. There hardly is R&D involved in choosing what kind of plastic you use for the AUG stock, when compared to the amount of designing the guys at Tokyo Marui did for the original design. These taiwanese and chinese companies simply couldn't offer the products they sell at that price if they had designed them from the ground up.

 

-Sale

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awesome response, and you beat me to exactly what I was going to say.

 

Most of the designs referenced above are still copies (except for SCARand FNC which is yet to be released) with a few cosmetic changes.

 

Great post, Sale.

[Sale]

Those "new" guns like SA80 are child's play compared to the MP7 for example. Even if someone stole the entire GBB mechanism of, say, a KSC TMP, they'd still have to do a lot of work to make it work. Even wondered why KJW or HFC didn't come up with an MP7 despite of the demand?

 

-Sale

[Ubar]

G&G came out with their version of the M14 gearbox first...?

 

ICS and Star both forwarding the V2 and V3 gearboxes respectivley with quick change springs etc. and Star using their own gearboxes for the L85 and Minimi series...?

 

 

I think it was pretty obvious the comparison I was making in my original post there that now that the basic gearbox concept has been figured out by all the manufacturers (which has taken some time to perfect in most cases), I would say there is more innovation between all the non japanese rifle manufacturers compared with what is basically TM in japan.

 

 

 

---

 

 

Anyways back on subject, this is supposed to be about gas MP5s after all

[lsniperxl]

Yeah, how well did the GG mechbox hold up? When TM releases a gun there are no recalls. It doesn't break. That is the result of over a decade worth of R&D.

 

Sale: The problem here is the world was given the benefit of the doubt. The governemtn was kept at bay by a self governing cooperation and a responsible public. However, the ASGK didn't keep up its end of the deal and the the public showed they were unable to keep themselves in check...thus the government stepped in. Now when a danger is very real the company providing the product solely responsible for the crimes in Japan will not do anything to address the problem. To date, the only recorded death from an airsoft BB was a result from an upgraded Digicon. They even market their guns as being over 1j in power. To do all this when airsoft is in the spotlight in its homeland...IS irresponsible. If the public cannot be responsible with potentially dangerous products something needs to be done by someone.

[TDS]

Yeah, how well did the GG mechbox hold up?  When TM releases a gun there are no recalls.  It doesn't break.  That is the result of over a decade worth of R&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

they actually worked completely fine if you modified the trigger unit, current versions allready have it done.