Retailer Suspended and Game Site Cautioned

[Dentonboy]

Am I the only person/skirmisher utterly confused about the whole VCRA situation?

 

For me, this latest episode only helps to add fog to an already unclear standing we skirmishers have.

[snorkelman]

UKARA can set up any database it likes and impose any preconditions upon entry on it it pleases Anyone who has signed up for it and agreed to its T&Cs can be punished for not abiding by the ground rules.

 

However simply because an organisation is voluntarily joined and not a government or industry requirement, doesn't mean that those joining have any less right of natural justice than anyone else, on that basis I take it we can assume the hearings were indepth, fair and all parties had plenty of time to prepare their case?

 

It does strike me as harsh to censure a shop for processing membership applications from a site that believed it was issuing memberships in good faith.

 

I'd have thought it was UKARAs responsibility to ensure that sites they were signing up to join the scheme were issuing memberships based on suitable criteria NOT the retailers doing the donkey work of processing applications that had been validated by them (as requested by UKARA)

 

If for example I was to have set up a completely hookey site, get it insured, registered it with UKARA, taken on a bundle of folks as members who hadnt got off their arses for the past five years stamped all their attendance forms etc then dumped all my bogus paperwork on the counter of a UKARA retailer to enter it into the database for me 'on behalf of my players', why the *fruitcage* should the retailer carry the can?

 

As a retailer who has joined the scheme surely I should be able to accept the data presented to me by a UKARA recognised skirmish site for me to enter as being valid if not by the government then at least by the frigging organisation thats supposedly vetted the sites supplying the meat of the scheme - valid skirmishers who have a defence.

 

Otherwise whats the point of assigning sites unique UKARA site codes and giving them little rubber stamps to play with anyway?

 

The retailers part of the bargain is to ensure his shop selling practices meet UKARA guidelines - that he doesnt enter incomplete forms in the database, that he doesnt send guns to folks at different adress to the one on the database etc. He/she will have had plenty to deal with and get their head around in run up to VCRA without beign expected to know the remainder of the law inside out - eg what will and wont constitute a valid criteria for skirmish site membership pre October 1st when that part of the process is really the preserve of the site owners signed up to UKARA.

 

How much guidance did UKARA provide sites with in terms of who they could and could not sign up as site members prior to Oct 1st? I know UKARA have recomendations/requirements for new 1st October onwards players but clear were the criteria laid down to sites as far as pre 1st October signups went? If what was done wasnt prohibited in any literature or notes from UKARA seems childish to be punishing folks for doing something they werent told they couldnt!

 

It strikes me as particularly harsh to impose a period of denied access rather than a monetary amount as the punishment involved - given that the three month suspension is going to incorporate the christmas period and in full knowledge of the likely affect denied access will have on the retailers business.

[Madjock]

This is very severe , not only were myself and Scott at LW being reported as joining forces to decieve Ukara but Its then made public so rotten veg can be thrown when other retailers held the same type of registration drive to keep interest in the sport.

Are Ukara going to witch hunt them as well, i dont think so! However In scotland we are trying to get all the sites to aid the community by helping each other and players although its buisiness we communicate with each other not try to cut each others throats, well most of us.

Now we have players who are regulars at our site who live in England and are now asking me whether i can verify them the answer is i dont know. As far a Ukara are concerned they cant possibly play at our site in Scotland as they live in England even though they have been playing on our site for many years.

This whole thing has just reminded me of why we should have a governmental body to control this not a group of retailers.

I was about to put it behind me until i read the whole one sided veiw had been put for all to see although all our players are behind us 100% this could have been very damaging for both parties and should have been kept in house, not that i am trying to hide from it. Others were doing the same thing and myself and Scott did not realise this was against the rules set out by Ukara.

i personaly do not want to see any other retailers being punished in this manner as they may not be able to weather the storm, But it certainly is food for thought.

 

MJ

[creepingfear]

GMAC/UKARA are being very silent since the initial post. You can't just plonk up a post of this nature and then just bugger off and leave it to fester. By keeping schtum it will only serve to make people think that there is something very stinky about the goals of UKARA. I remember a while ago there was a lot of heated postings on both forums from players and sites alike about concerns that UKARA might try and position themselves in to an area that will give them unaccountable power in terms of governing body status and deciding who can sell ect.

 

Are we seeing the beginnings of these concerns come to fruition.................?

[{MIA}Gmac]

I will have a look at all your comment as time permits but a brief answer to some of them now.

 

I did not close the thread as if I had there would have been complaints that there was no ability to reply and ask questions.

 

This is not a question of Grandfathering, which to me means inclusion genuine players, by a Site Operator, who have played previously at a game site without waiting the minimum 2 months and three game rule,

 

What happened is that when the database entries for Skirmish Edinburgh were looked at after player information was brought to our attention, it was found that a number of the players entered had postal addresses well beyond any probable travelling distance to that game site.

 

Some of these players were contacted and confirmed that they had never played at Skirmish Edinburgh but had been offered membership through Land Warrior without filling in a UKARA players from, or being verified.

 

The offence was knowingly entering non verifyed players into the UKARA data base who were not members of the game site who's code number was used.

 

Entering a player onto the data base without any proof that they were over 18 or a verifyed "skirmisher" as required under the VCRA after the 1st of October when it became illegal to sell RiFs to under 18s, or other than the permitted purchasers groups.

 

Entering on the UKARA Database players using Player forms which had not been properly verified by Skirmish Edinburgh ( NCIS )

 

Our action is 100% in line with the rules accepted by every retailer who chose to join the UKARA retailers scheme, If you choose to sign an agreement and then ignore it I have little sympathy, the stated penalty is ejection, so the 3 month ban is hard but fair.

 

As when a retailer enters a players data the id of the entrant and the date is logged, Land Warrior sensibly did not deny it as the proof is self evident.

 

Any future transgressions by any other site or retailer will not be more leniently treated than Land Warrior, it is most likely that the penalty will be greater.

 

We set up the UKARA scheme to protect retailers from prosecution, make sure players can continue to purchase RiF's legally and satisfy the government that we are regulating ourselves.

Nobody is forced to use or be a member of the UKARA scheme, but those who are will not be allowed to abuse it.

 

 

 

 

[kerberos_]

As Madjock says, its not just Landwarrior who's being made to be villains here - their site also has a potentially tarnished reputation because of the very "one-way" post made initially.

 

Skirmish (NCIS) Edinburgh had also behaved in a reckless manner by allowing Land Warrior to enter players with unverified Player forms, they have been cautioned and will have all currently enter NCI player data deleted, they now will only be able to enter their player data directly with UKARA.

 

I mean, they allowed Landwarrior ...?

 

If NCIS believed they were verifying legitimate airsofters than who is in the position to question? The UKARA? Who says the retailers of the UKARA are all doing things squeaky clean.

 

I would really like to see some pics of the players from England playing on NCIS soil or at least in ANY skirmish - then how on earth can they (NICS + LW) be questioned?

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Well if the UKARA can set out a database, why can't anyone else? Sure, a lot of shops have signed up to the UKARA banner, but that doesn't mean new shops or traders can't be given an alternative!

 

What has occured to me, is that there is probably a very big "need" for a database which is accessible by overseas retailers....and yes, I have read the blurb on the UKARA about the potential for "outside" influence to somehow "tamper" with any such database....(how, thats any more of a risk then normal is beyond me!)....such a database would not only offer considerable competition to the current "choice"...but would also greatly help towards the current [ can I import without getting my ar*e felt ] question thats been doing the rounds, such a database could be made open for certain agencies like HMCE and the Police further aiding the distribution of RIFs to those that need it.....

[snorkelman]

This is very severe , not only were myself and Scott at LW being reported as joining forces to decieve Ukara but Its then made public so rotten veg can be thrown when other retailers held the same type of registration drive to keep interest in the sport.

Are Ukara going to witch hunt them as well, i dont think so! However In scotland we are trying to get all the sites to aid the community by helping each other and players although its buisiness we communicate with each other not try to cut each others throats, well most of us.

Now we have players who are regulars at our site who live in England and are now asking me whether i can verify them the answer is i dont know. As far a Ukara are concerned they cant possibly play at our site in Scotland as they live in England even though they have been playing on our site for many years.

 

whats good for one is good for the rest - if UKARA are going to portray this as a potential breach of the highest order then Id have thought they should be scouring all of the database and investigating every single sits membership policy for those given memberships prior to 1st October to ensure no similar breaches have taken place elsewhere

 

the idea that a scottish site cant have people registered who have english adresses is a nonsense too

 

A - it ignores completely folks who may find themselves up in scotland using a site to skirmish at who actually reside down south and are only up here on a regular bassi due to work placement (staying in hotels or weekend accomodation whilst here) For folks like that giving a scottish adress isnt viable - not when retailers are required to send to that address! Thus providing their englishhome address would be the only means they'd have of ensuring their purchases go to an adress they have control of. what would UKARA rather have them do? stick care of room 123 the sheraton hotel edinburgh in as their registered adress?

 

B Likewise for English students who livein halls of residence in Scotland that prohibit the storage of anything gun shaped and need their items shipped to their parents adress

 

C folks who live with one parent durign the week and their other parent at weekends

 

[kerberos_]

Thanks for the response Gmac.

 

Entering a player onto the data base without any proof that they were over 18 or a verifyed "skirmisher" as required under the VCRA after the 1st of October when it became illegal to sell RiFs to under 18s, or other than the permitted purchasers groups.

 

Ok, so LW entered details onto a database?

I thought that the UKARA entered the details - which come from the retailer?

Excuse me if my understanding of the process is not accurate.

 

Some of these players were contacted and confirmed that they had never played at Skirmish Edinburgh but had been offered membership through Land Warrior without filling in a UKARA players from, or being verified.

 

But if this was offered before the 1st, then what have they done wrong? They would have to use a site as your own process (again, could be wrong) stipulates a player must be tied to a site - I never read or heard of anything saying they had to attend that site.

 

So I for example, could have bought from LW prior the 1st, he offers membership and would tie me to NCIS, I say fine. That makes sense to me.

[{MIA}Gmac]

Thank you for your kind word's but I have a farm, an airsoft business, and a life to run, as well as voluntary acting as UKARA's Admin, which I assure you has no personal benefit except fielding questions from the sensible to the downright silly, and trying to decipher printed form written by dyslexic spiders .

I was asked to post the statement on behalf of the UKARA Committee and have done so.

I will try to keep up with the thread but I do not promise to be hovering over my Keyboard

 

 

[creepingfear]

I will have a look at all your comment as time permits but a brief answer to some of them now.

 

I did not close the thread as if I had there would have been complaints that there was no ability to reply and ask questions.

 

This is not a question of Grandfathering, which to me means inclusion genuine players, by a Site Operator, who have played previously at a game site without waiting the minimum 2 months and three game rule,

 

What happened is that when the database entries for Skirmish Edinburgh were looked at after player information was brought to our attention, it was found that a number of the players entered had postal addresses well beyond any probable travelling distance to that game site.

 

Some of these players were contacted and confirmed that they had never played at Skirmish Edinburgh but had been offered membership through Land Warrior without filling in a UKARA players from, or being verified.

 

The offence was knowingly entering non verifyed players into the UKARA data base who were not members of the game site who's code number was used.

 

Entering a player onto the data base without any proof that they were over 18 or a verifyed "skirmisher" as required under the VCRA after the 1st of October when it became illegal to sell RiFs to under 18s, or other than the permitted purchasers groups.

 

Entering on the UKARA Database players using Player forms which had not been properly verified by Skirmish Edinburgh ( NCIS )

 

Our action is 100% in line with the rules accepted by every retailer who chose to join the UKARA retailers scheme, If you choose to sign an agreement and then ignore it I have little sympathy, the stated penalty is ejection, so the 3 month ban is hard but fair.

 

As when a retailer enters a players data the id of the entrant and the date is logged, Land Warrior sensibly did not deny it as the proof is self evident.

 

Any future transgressions by any other site or retailer will not be more leniently treated than Land Warrior, it is most likely that the penalty will be greater.

 

We set up the UKARA scheme to protect retailers from prosecution, make sure players can continue to purchase RiF's legally and satisfy the government that we are regulating ourselves.

Nobody is forced to use or be a member of the UKARA scheme, but those who are will not be allowed to abuse it.

 

There has been more than enough posts that can counter your argument yet you seem to ignore them...............

 

Also, just had a read of your "rules" and I cannot see anything that immediately jumps out that the accused parties did anything wrong.

[Stealthbomber]

*sigh*

 

I sooooo want to close this because I'm sure it'll just become a stream of ill-informed people slagging off UKARA.

 

Time for you guys to prove me wrong.

[The Chef]

only one small thing grips me about this.

 

entered had postal addresses well beyond any probable travelling distance to that game site.

 

So am I under the impression that you (UKARA) will be arbitrating what you think a suitable distance is? The only reason I say this is because one of our team 'not so regular but regular enough's' airsofts at our site when he travels down (300 miles) to do service work at RAF Culdrose, generally at least once every two months. Now I know him personally (have done for nearly 20 years) and he has been softing for as long as I have.

 

His normal site is not UKARA registered and I dont think they are wanting to become so.

 

So he registers with us.

 

Am I going to come under scrutiny because you think its unlikely that he can travel down to play at our site?

 

And if thats the case, I am going to be sorely offended that you care to question my honourability, and be prepared to receive a rash of evidence to prove his playing credentials. I know for one, I am not going to jeopardise the reputation of the site for the sake of getting someone registered, friend or otherwise.

 

Not knowing the full details of the LWA case I will not comment, only as far as to say, I appreciate that with such a hurried start to all this there was a great deal of confusion.

There was no need to broadcast this turn of events, rumour would have filtered through eventually, and it should have been down to the retailer and the site to address this first when rumour occured rather than UKARA tooting the horn.

[snorkelman]

sorry but that just dont wash

 

Grandfathering is wide open to abuse - verifying someone played at a site before october 1st to save them waiting the two months can just as easily allow players onto the database whos playing days are over, and they've no more reason to be there than someone whos never played.

 

How long ago would they have to have played before their previous attendance was deemed too out of date? 6 months ago, a year ago, 2 years ago? If their is a maximum time since last played to qualify for grandfathering then why isnt their a corresponding maximum time since last played to trigger removal too?

 

Likewise the no proper verification - as I understand it NCIS agreed to provide free membership to landwarrior customers who purchased prior to 1st October From that POV landwarrior can hardly have been viewed to have been majorly remiss in 'not verifying the players details' when it was they themselves that had forwarded the players details to NCIS in the first place! By looks if it as far as LW were concerned NCIS membership had been obtained for them as part of the offer and folks being entered were grandfathered players whose membership did not have to meet post 1st Oct attendance guidelines.

 

But they could have ended up putting people on the database that will never ever skirmish!! Aye - only cause UKARA database doesnt take people back off for never never skirmishing again once on it so long as they keep buying. If it did they'd have no choice but to skirmish in order to stay on it

 

Again I have to ask if LW had sent out player forms to those customers prior to 1st October, NCIS had verified them and then LW had entered them would this have still kicked off? If not why not and if not have any other retailers also had similar membership drives in conjunction with their local skimrish sites that may have seen similar lax membership criteria being employed pre 1st October?

 

Rather than punish LW and NCIS for this why not have followed it up with other retailers and encouraged them to highlight any schemes that might have been in place with similar legal issues around them. One thing is for sure the punishments meted out in this case are not going to encourage any other retailer or site to come forward and volunteer the fact that they pushed their definitions too. Instead any such activities that might have aken place will more likely be buried by those involved than risk similar sanctions.

 

Ive said it before, I know you dont like it but I'll say it again this scheme should be a temporary transition to an independtly run and funded scheme. its one thing to have a dealer funded scheme in place as a stop gap due to Oct 1st approaching but we now have all the time in the workd to get a fully fledged scheme in place to supercede it.

 

Clear rules should be drawn up no grandfathering no endless purchase based renewals. All current safeguards the UKARA scheme has as far a third party admininistration of a database of the same spec and security should be retained for the confidence of the retailers - but funding should be raised from an annual players membership renewal levy and the scheme itself widened so all interested parties be that any retailer, HMRC, secondhand seller etc can get a confirmation of who is and isnt a skirmisher on entry of name postcode DOB and reg number of a player supplied by the player.

[seaweasel]

I'm very dubious about this. I was hoping to get said NCIS membership having bought an AEG from LW before Oct 1st, however since I'm not planning on buying any more guns in the near future I forgot to check what the situation was. I should be able to get membership through Section 8 or Asylum relatively soon anyway so it's not a big deal.

 

What I'm more concerned about is the effect this is going to have on LW and Airsoft generally. From what UKARA and Scott have said, it seems like there was a breach of rules due to misinterpretation - not inconceivable given the complicated situation regarding the VCRA. LW are a legitimate retailer with a good reputation and I think it's very counterproductive to do something that could hurt their sales badly. While I'm also a satisfied customer of Airsoft World, the fact is that UKARA's chairperson owns Land Warrior's biggest competitor and regardless of the reason's behind UKARA's decision, it can be perceived to look pretty bad.

 

Scottish Airsoft is a small community within a small community and while everyone involved obviously has to be careful when it comes to the VCRA, I think that actions such as this could have the potential to be pretty harmful to Airsoft in the long run.

 

[rallymad_nad]

That's correct Dave - it's a popular misconception that membership is mandatory, but in truth registration on the database is only mandatory should you wish to purchase from an UKARA-registered retailer. Unfortunately at present I believe the UKARA database is unavailable to non-registered retailers, making membershing a bit pointless for those like me who prefer to import from HK. In those cases the onus remains on the individual to provide evidence of an exception. One method is the aforementioned skirmish diary, which I'm hoping Fin will soon provide some illumination on why he was told by his local site owner that this would not work.

 

Well I've just joined a certain sites membership scheme, which proves with their say so that I am an active skirmisher. I can be added to the UKARA database if I wish but because I always buy from HK and that my membership is my defence I don't see a point. Customs hold my package, I send them a copy of my membership card and contact details for the site if they wish to query it. I don't intend making buying weapons any harder than it has to be.

[Janno]

Unfortunately the whole regulation scheme is still in its infancy, and there are bound to be teething problems, the same as when the official SIA courses were introduced to the security industry in this country.

 

So far, i can tell you a number of things i've experienced in the last month alone:-

 

1. I've had calls from representatives in HM Customs & Excise and the British Transport Police contact me on official business (to do background checks on certain members), and they have both stated how impressed they are by the level of self regulation in our sport. In fact, one gentleman even quoted a senior officer as saying "It's even easier to get a real firearms license than buy an airsoft gun now!"

 

2. I've had collectors contact me to sign up, only to be told that they'll need to skirmish a few times before they'll be eligible for membership, and that our membership don't come cheap (£50/annum, but with plenty of extra services). As a result, many have now become full-time skirmishers in an effort to make use of the services we offer with our rather expensive membership scheme.

 

3. Equally, i've had a few undesirables virtually come down to the site with a completed form and demand that i stamp it for them. Whilst they're willing to jump in for a few games, they clearly have no interest in skirmishing in the long term, and thankfully, the £50 membership fee calls their bluff, and they leave looking for another site organiser to harass/bully.

 

4. I've also seen some of our regulars reject our membership because it's too expensive and they don't intend to use the services we offer. Offering a cheap membership option would only cause problems for us however, as it wouldn't be long before the police pulled up some toerag running around his estate with a Glock and an FCS card in his wallet. There goes my site, and the years of work we've put into bolstering our relationship with the authorities.

 

5. UKARA is the only governing body that has been set up to deal with this, and it does a reasonable job of keeping its affairs in order. Perhaps it's not perfect, but then how many other governing bodies or organisations do you see doing the same thing? Thus we have two options: We either comply with its guidelines and support its development, or we find a better alternative and do the same for that.

 

Whichever way you think about it, regulation is a good idea, and it's here to stay, regardless of whether you embrace it or reject it as an individual. By embracing it, you'll see it go from strength to strength, and everyone will get a better deal. If you decide not to play ball and reject it, then it'll just have to carry on without you. In the defense of LW and NCIS, we are just over a month into the VCRA, and i'm sure there have been oversights everywhere - not just regarding those named few. In defense of UKARA, the body must be seen to stick to its guns. If it lets these oversights go, then it undermines the whole point of having set up the body in the first place (the UN, for example). It's up to us to find solutions and make this new regime work, lest the whole thing descend into one big clusterf*ck.

[{MIA}Gmac]

The way the UKARA scheme is meant to work is quite simple, the heart is the Game Sites.

 

a) The game site operator is the one who by providing membership of his properly insured game site creates an Airsoft “Skirmisher” by recording that the player has played there at least 3 times over a period of not less than 2 months according to the governments regulation, and thus will have a defence allowing him to purchase RiFs.

 

That game site, if a member of UKARA, is required to countersign the UKARA player database application form, that a player has filled out with all the required details.

 

They have signed an agreement to do this with all possible diligence, and make sure that a players is a member of their site e.g. “a Skirmisher” and they have made a proper ID check of age and address using suitable documentation such as driving license or passport.

 

There final confirmation that the player has for filled all the requirements and in there opinion suitable to purchase RiFs is to sign and stamp the form with the game site unique UKARA stamp and the sites named signatory which UKARA has on record.

 

The player should then send the verified form to any UKARA retailer who will enter it onto the database.

 

The retailer has also signed an agreement that they will act in a diligent manner in checking and entering the data, so if the player form appears incorrect or has not been countersigned and stamped by a UKARA game site to which the player claims membership it should be rejected.

 

There is no may be or perhaps either you are doing right, or wrong.

 

In Land Warriors case they knowingly did it wrong, and in Skirmish case they also did it wrong.

If they were unsure of procedure they should have asked, or reread the information provided.

 

The only change to the original stated UKARA procedure is that as Admin I have the task of checking and entering Game Sites, checking their insurance is valid and issuing the verification stamps.

And this is only because its works better if its done by one person.

 

If one of the UKARA registered Site Operator or Retailer fails to act in a responsible manner then they are damaging the interests and security of Players, Site Operators and Retailers in the UKARA Scheme. And creating extra work for no reason.

 

Land Warrior can give free membership to NCIS, but to be a recognised Airsoft Skirmisher a) is require and Land Warrior do not have any ability to do that.

NCIS can still register players on the UKARA scheme and Land Warrior can still sell you RiFs he just cannot verify using the UKARA scheme that you are an Airsoft Skirmisher therefore has an increase his risk of prosecution if you are not.

 

What Land Warrior cannot do, and has no conceivable right to do, is offer you free membership of UKARA's Data base. To be a member of that you must fore fill all the simple requirements.

 

I do not see what Grandfathering has to do with this thread it is not what Land Warrior was doing.

 

We also have no problems of you being a member of a site in Lands End and having a delivery address in John 'O' Groats as long as you are actually a member of the site in Lands End.

[kerberos_]

Fair enough.

 

I think we have every right to ask questions before fingers are pointed on what was primarily a one sided view.

 

Is the 3 months ban something stipulated in the agreement between UKARA and retailers or something that was decided and if the latter, why 3 months?

[chris u'5]

From our point our competitors are able to dish justice on each other just seems a little off, especially when they can effectively cripple them in an instant.

 

Is there a particular competitor you are refering to perhaps? I wonder??

Good luck to all the guys at Land Warrior.

 

[MP5SD5]

Hmm, gotta say...

 

I live on the scottish isles, and a number of my friends "buddied" up to order over £300 from landwarrior on september 31st, we primarily ordered due to the free membership offer, and because we CANNOT skirmish on the mainland without paying £300-£400 PER SKIRMISH which ofcourse is completely impractical as many of you can imagine. Now I presume that those who had this "offer" granted to them will now not be able to buy airsoft rifles? As my friend who bought his first aeg and recieved the order on the 31st, who was just getting into airsoft, wanted to buy more rifles, but could not due to monetary constraints at the time.

 

I also feel that UKARA's posting of this on public forums is highly unprofessional, and has very much damaged the reputation and perhaps livelyhood of the staff at Land Warrior, who i know to be a wonderful bunch of folks. I think that if the governing body of our sport is going to publicly slander the reputation of a well-meaning shop and owner in the public domain of a message board, with the claims they lay down, it makes me wonder, just how "just" this database is. I live 250 miles from my nearest skirmish site, so if I was over 18 (which i am not, i will add) and I say became registered with Section 8 airsoft, which i could even at my age, would Section 8's morals be in jepardy? Just because a player travelled 250 miles AT HUGE EXPENSE to gain membership of a site to further their hobby? I feel that UKARA had no right to slander the name of Land Warrior without allowing LWA to release a statement beforehand, and simply fed us thier side of the story. A shame, I for one, believe that LWA has some guilt to repay, but in many ways UKARA's handling of the situation has in my oppinion been less than "professional".

 

I also wish the best for the folks at landwarrior, as they have provided me with outstanding service and I give them my upmost respect, and hope they can shrug off this blow.

[clanfalcon]

In Land Warriors case they knowingly did it wrong

 

So now we are just liars?

 

Scott

 

[GuzziHero]

Best way forward is for LandWarrior to form tie-ins with airsoft sites. I know of at least one who has foregone UKARA membership and has made tie-ins with retailers, including a few UKARA ones. As long as LandWarrior is prepared to accept that sites' word as to recognising true airsofters, they can still trade.

[kerberos_]

End of the day Guzzi-lad, retailer has to accept a sites word on things anyway really

 

More or less.

[GuzziHero]

Another point to make is...the UKARA are enforcing a 2-months minimum limit and not accepting grandfathering. So am I to presume that all UKARA retailers have made zero sales since Oct1? And will not sell any till Nov2?

 

After all, if noone's registrations can go active till after 2 months and a day...

 

What about sites that have already submitted player registrations, using validated UKARA stamps on their forms? Are they to be suspended too?