sealone90 Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Please do DOOM. I am more than just interested in doin some of this. There just isn't any really good shops around my area that could take on this kind of task. Link to post Share on other sites
Glenn Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 not sure if you can even CNC Mill Titanium. I believe you have to forge/cast it. It's machinable, it just sucks to do. Lots of coolant, carbide cutters, and profanity recomended. I hate this kind of thread. And honestly now, no one here is getting one made. What kind of Ti? Temper? Ready to pay a couple hundred for a raw lump of it, and then several grand more to develop the tooling needed to bang out one - a process that will cost yet another few grand? And of course...WHY? Your Hayes box isn't broken, and neither is the AL box you could make for a fraction of the cost of Ti. Steel would be stronger, and cheaper to boot. I hate these threads. Link to post Share on other sites
Danke Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Find "The Battle of the X-Planes" it's been on NOVA a few times. There's a segment where they show Lockheed milling a bulkhead out of Ti, 5 months to make it happen! not sure if you can even CNC Mill Titanium. I believe you have to forge/cast it. Link to post Share on other sites
Shinden Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Tappet plates are made of plastic for a reason. They have to retain a good deal of flexibility. I stand corrected, I can't believe I forgot about the fexibility issue. On part with that, what about the tappet made in Carbon-Fiber or reinforced alloy carbon fiber? Link to post Share on other sites
Mishkan Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 There is such a thing as overkill. Titanium doesn't give anywhere close to a great cost-strength benefit. Link to post Share on other sites
MadDog Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Glenn is right, Titanium can be machines it's just a ball ache trying to, You need high power CNC machines and mega tooling so you can just dive into it. The mechanical properties side of it all depends on what grade you are using, Titanium in it's raw state has a tensile strength of about 430Mpa, thats about the same as a mid grade carbon steel, but if you get a nice alloy you can get it up to 1250Mpa. The main reasons Titanium is used in industry is A: weight, and B: corrosion resistance to chemicals. So we don't care about B. The best place I could see it used in an airsoft gearbox is for the piston it's self if you want a high speed setup. This would give you a piston that’s about the same weight as an aluminium piston, but with loads more strength. The gears I would make out of a heat treated High carbon steel, and the gearbox i would leave as aluminium as this is not a particularly stressed part. The cylinder I would make out of a bearing grade bronze, this has good self lubrication properties so you can happily used a very light oil (thus not slowing your piston down). and the rest i would leave as be. This would be my ideal setup, however i can imagine it would cost over £5000 to make, and remember that’s using an off the shelf gearbox. Link to post Share on other sites
slyguyfry Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 I don't believe there is a holy-grail of gearboxes, but I'll keep my hopes up that there might be one. I helped a friend build a Haynes box with a mcferson strut aka a m170. I have yet to see a broken one. In the end he shot me at over 300 ft in the wind and i called it. But other than that, I officially contribute nothing to this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
[BS]_MARS Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 You should make a gearbox out of diamond, that's baller. Then put it in a JG m4 with a clear plastic receiver to show it off. You should put 22in rims on the gears too. Then put a whistler in the piston, gearbox goes WHOOP WHOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPP! Link to post Share on other sites
Danke Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Then put a whistler in the piston, gearbox goes WHOOP WHOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPP! You better get your name stamped on that idea quick before some rips it off! Link to post Share on other sites
epicdoom Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Ok I gave my reinforced v2 gearbox to the Machine shop today there project manager is going to look it over and see if can be done without costing a mint. I was told the prospect looks bleak. I see someone said something about casting now thats rite up my alley I been home casting aluminum brass and bronze for 14 years I could easiely cast a gearbox in those metals but not titanium Home foundry = not enough heat to melt titanium 3034F thats far from my capable temp of 2136F Even at that it wont be smooth enough to just use some machining has to be done I have a mill and lathe in my basment shop so no problem there. I do know a foundry that I do work in that would pour the titanium for me into a mold that I make, however I would have to wait months till they shut down production for clean up. I had them pour some grey iron for me last year for a project I was working on. Will keep you posted on the Ti GB Doom Link to post Share on other sites
Glenn Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Will keep you posted on the Ti GB Machining a single Ti box will be too expensive, so you're going to machine a mold to cast one, then post machine it? I'll try not to hold my breath. Link to post Share on other sites
scorch Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 You should make a gearbox out of diamond, that's baller. Then put it in a JG m4 with a clear plastic receiver to show it off. You should put 22in rims on the gears too. Then put a whistler in the piston, gearbox goes WHOOP WHOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPP! I'm gonna stick with tried and tested aluminium.... Well... That is, until they make an ADAMANTIUM mechbox! Possibly with Vibranium-steel alloy gears? Link to post Share on other sites
epicdoom Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 no you mold with casting sand -- sand casting easy and affordable and surprizingly you can get some very awesome detail from it sometimes it will come out fairly smooth sometimes not, depends on the sand you use as well as other factors. Do a search on sand casting your will be blown away by whats made that way engine blocks piston rings ornimental toy soldiers with high detail most metal is casted in sand not metal Think- Speak- React Doom Link to post Share on other sites
DarkLite Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I know what sand-casting is, I've done it before. You're not going to get the consistency and accuracy you'll need for a gearbox shell with sand casting. No chance. Link to post Share on other sites
Glenn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Think Come on man, this isn't happening and you know it. Sand casting is fantastic, but to cast something to tolerance, never mind something from titanium, requires signifigant engineering. You don't stick your old gearbox in silica sand, make a mold, and poor metal. If you want to spend thousands on a cast gearbox, go buy a few dozen TM/CA/Systema/etc items...they're all cast, and frequently its that casting process which is part of the reason they fail. Casting IS great, but it's tricky, and when done on the cheap can lead to less than ideal parts...like stock mechboxes. Link to post Share on other sites
Vuddha Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 That's exactly why each mechbox has to be shimmed individually, and uniquely, because of the tolerances. And if I'm not mistaken, something casted isn't as strong in certain ways to something that is billet, then milled. Link to post Share on other sites
[BS]_MARS Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Just buy a handful of Haynes gearboxes and save yourself the hassle. Link to post Share on other sites
zentaurus Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 interesting and quite a number of very well-reasoned points. like the OP, i still think Ti for the shell and some parts can benefit from Ti if costs were not a factor. why? why not? would have done it myself a long time ago if i had the bottomless pockets the project required Link to post Share on other sites
epicdoom Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I am trying to have one machined. I cant cast one and yes you can get a high level of acuracy and detail from sand casting Look on the net folks its not as hard as you think. I do also believe I stated it would need to be machined after it was cast as you never get a perfect mold everytime. I will be headed back to the machine shop tomorrow to find out the cost and if it's worth doing it. I'm sure its not going to be cheap. I have been sand casting for many years experience is what it takes to consistantly make good molds. No I'm not saying they are all perfect but they can be done with enough accuracy that only light machining is required. The ring and seal factory I go to make there own rings, from Brass, grey iron and steel they loose 2 molds per 100+ and most times its due to a bad pour, not a bad mold. This shop does 90% of it's work for aerospace companies and military use. Doom Link to post Share on other sites
zentaurus Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 done some research in preparation for doing my own and agree that it's the pouring that can make a difference. stands to reason too. but can't really say as i still haven't really done it. anyway, will appreciate updates from you, doom Link to post Share on other sites
RacingManiac Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 How much are you willing to pay for something like that? Just an idea of how much Titanium items can cost, regular lockwire(safetywire or however you call it), stainless steel ones cost like $15 for one pound coil, Titanium ones cost $90 for the same quantity. This is aircraft safety stuff, mil-spec and all. Plus you have to pay for the CNC cost, CMM the original box and have someone make it out of Titanium at something like $90/hr, where they time you on programming the tool path and setup and then the actual machining operation. The reason to use titanium is that it is lighter than steel and has more than 2/3 the strength, plus its corrosion resistant. Something like that is good for aircraft components where the need something stronger than aluminum(can take higher temeperature), and wont rust when exposed to weather element, in an airsoft mechbox, its a waste of time/money/material. The load you are dealing with here is nothing a properly machined aluminum 6061 T6 can't handle. If you want strong gears with less weight, you'll be better off with carburized steel, maybe with some speed holes in the center to reduce its mass. It'll probably cost less than to have someone cut it out of Titanium, and way better in wear.....and like someone else said, bushing and stuff, you are better off using bearing/bushing grade bronze, instead of dealing with the galvanize corrosion of the titanium on titanium contact..... We all heard how awesome some materials are, but they are only awesome when used properly(and we hear about it because they are being used properly in applications they excelled at), nothing is one case fits all solution(in that case the best material most often being steel). Hell if you wanna cast something crazy, trying making a Metal-Matrix Composite mechbox..... Link to post Share on other sites
epicdoom Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 OK folks this is gonna be way to expensive for 1 Gearbox the price would be $800.00. The reason it would need to be lazer scaned, to create a 3D template, then all dementions verified with special equiptment, then it would need to be intered into a cnc program, then cut. for several thousand the price would be better but not under $200.00 each This is the price provided you supply the titanium I have a plate 12"X12"X3"thick and it wasnt cheap even getting it on discount from the shop i go to. I see no real reason to persue having one made from this metal. Maybe steel or even t-6061 or 7075 aircraft grade aluminum would be cheaper I didnt ask. Doom Link to post Share on other sites
[BS]_MARS Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Or (as I have said) just buy a Haynes, they already did everything you just described as well as reinforcing and re engineering the V2 design its self. Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Or (as I have said) just buy a Haynes, they already did everything you just described as well as reinforcing and re engineering the V2 design its self. The reengineering being the biggest factor because if you try to get something cnc'ed from scanning a cast item, then you are guaranteed to be off. The Haynes boxes have all the engineering done to them so that parts fit right. Why dont you ask how much they would charge to have all the bearings go out to 8mm, thats a service i would pay for Link to post Share on other sites
Glenn Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 $800.00... ...I see no real reason to persue having one made from this metal... ...t-6061 or 7075 Sounds like a LOW estimate to me. And thanks for joining the group on this one. Link to post Share on other sites
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