TK hop twist barrels, are they worth it?

[Glenn]

And you didn't measure your velocity. Who would have guessed, you have the scientific prowess of an ID proponent in a church on Easter.

 

 

As Sale quoted, TK himself says they don't increase range. So the designer, whom the magic is named for, and PHYSICS both tell you you're wrong. But you did some soft experimentation in the woods.

[evo12]

And you didn't measure your velocity. Who would have guessed, you have the scientific prowess of an ID proponent in a church on Easter.

 

 

As Sale quoted, TK himself says they don't increase range. So the designer, whom the magic is named for, and PHYSICS both tell you you're wrong. But you did some soft experimentation in the woods.

 

Why would I need to take the fps reading on the chrono? FPS readings are irrelevant if i'm guaging the best distance. All it tells me is the fps on the chrono. It was well within the velocity limit of the field so I didn't need to. When I could do it hands on and see the result in person, what value would the chrono have other than telling me the fps? Aside from what Koba said, TK had the best result in terms of range and accuracy between the barrels I tested. Sorry I didn't sit down and calculate it and do a theoretical conclusion beforehand.

 

So just because Koba says distance isn't increased, it's automatically out from being the best option between the other tightbores?

 

I stand by what I said. Unless you try it firsthand, then theoretical calculations are exactly what they are, calculations.

[asinapple8805]

Evo is right about fps numbers meaning absolutely nothing. the truth is that by installing a TK barrel, your fps numbers will actually go down on whatever gun you are using unless the barrel you are upgrading from is a stock barrel.

 

but you guys already knew that because it was posted earlier and you guys are all about fps.

[Sale]

The FPS figures do need to be measured, because the lack of range of the other barrel could stem from lack of velocity (compared to the TK barrel) if there was an air leak for example. You always chrono a gun after tuning it, even if it's well below the limit. It's not about getting the highest possible velocity, but also to check that the velocities are consistent.

 

You guys can go on believing what you want but unless you guys do actual testing firsthand, then you won't see for yourself. Sometimes you gotta try things out instead of doing calculations.

And when someone does test them, you'll just fall back on the "you didn't install/tune it right"-argument. You've already said that all the people who didn't get an improvement in range were just incompetent tuners.

 

It doesn't take any calculation to say that the barrel can not lengthen the trajectory of a BB when the velocity, spin and direction are fixed.

 

So just because Koba says distance isn't increased, it's automatically out from being the best option between the other tightbores?

No. Because Koba and the laws of physics say that it can and will not increase the range (=flight path of the BB), you simply accept the fact that it doesn't increase the range.

 

It does not make the BB float by a magic pocket or turbulence or any of that pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo. Even the strangest things Koba said about the barrel were related to the accuracy, not making the BB fly a longer distance.

 

It is still possible that it's the best precision barrel there is, if it provides the best groupings. I never argued against that. If that is the case, then the effective range will be better, because you are able to hit targets instead of missing them at long ranges. But it doesn't make the BB fly a longer distance.

 

I stand by what I said. Unless you try it firsthand, then theoretical calculations are exactly what they are, calculations.

And your beliefs are just that, beliefs. This isn't even a matter of calculations, but simply the laws of physics. Laws of physics PWN beliefs.

 

You dodged my question about the sound of an F1 car passing you.

 

-Sale

[evo12]

I got your point across with the F1. You and Glenn. I still believe what I saw. Let me apologize right now because apparently I didn't follow the Sale and Glenn method of testing barrels, sorry, the manual wasn't posted anywhere on the site.

 

Agree or disagree I'm not wasting anymore time on this post. I know what I have seen and done as well as the other people who were there, and you know what you think or done. This type of bickering is just gonna make this thread deteriorate. As I mentioned before, I know that you won't believe unless you see it first hand.

 

To the potential buyers: If you want to see the results buy it and get your own opinions. All the calculations in the world won't result to what will actually happen in the gun. The biggest resistance in this thread is people relying on calculations rather than actually buying the barrel and trying it out for themselves.

 

edit: Regarding the crappy tuners that I previously mentioned, their idea of fine tuning was far behind. I'm talking about their 400 fps full sized aegs not hitting anything past 140 ft and their idea of lobbing shots as effective range. Come up to NorCal and you'll see what I mean.

[asinapple8805]

the reason why the TK twist barrel makes the bb go further and straighter is because, accoriding to my earlier theory, the pressure on the bb is evenly distrubuted along the entire front of the bb as it flies through the air rather than conventional hop up which puts more pressure below the front equator along it's path.

 

In the Tanio Koba trajectories the evenly distrubuted pressures caused by high and low pressure areas along the bb's surfaces stabilizes it better.

 

I drew a picture for you cause maybe pretty pictures is what you need to understand "Koba magic."

 

 

and P.S. it's always easy to say "it can't because physics doesn't allow for it" especially if you don't understand physics. physics is not an end all arugment. it is a field of study that helps to explain why things are they way they are. Just mentioning the word physics doesn't mean that you know what you are talking about or know that the other person is necessarily wrong. Evo has believed in my theory ever since i first explained it to him last summer.

[Panzergraf]

Is that the BB inside the barrel?

If so, the preassure would come from behind it, thus pushing it forwards...

[asinapple8805]

Negatory, brother, that's the bb in the air. for the most part, bbs have the same pressure around it while it is traversing the barrel. all pressures on all areas of the bb are negated in the barrel because the bb must follow the path that the barrel dictates, from chamber to muzzle.

[tome]

The High and Low pressure on the diagram appear to be the wrong way around if the green arrow is the direction of the BB's travel. If it were the way around that you drew the bb would be travelling right to left. That's what my years of messing about with pitot tubes and wind tunnels have shown me anyway hehe - EDIT ah you say that the diagram is for a bb in the air Serves me right for posting before i'm actually fully awake hehe

 

If the pressure around the BB is "negated" for it's travel down the barrel, as you said to Panzer, then you're effectively saying that the air pressure is the same around the entire bb. That describes the conditions of a bb at rest in a perfectly still atmosphere, not a BB travelling at all in anything other than a vacuum.

 

EDIT - Found your theory of the backspin + twist ... Can you elaborate a little on your idea of a "perfect spin"?

 

 

Looks to me like perhaps you need read up a little on the basics of how pressure acts around objects moving through a liquid, before you finalise you "Theory for TK twist barrels"

[asinapple8805]

what i meant to say about the pressures on different areas of the bb being negated was that different areas of the bb along it's face (muzzle side hemisphere) are not worth mentioning because the bb will have to travel along a predetermined path (the barrel). in simple terms, it doesn't matter how much pressure is created on the top or bottom of the bb (or how much hop the bb has while it is in the barrel, it's only going in one direction and that's out the muzzle).

 

sorry about the confusion on that one.

 

also, i didn't show all of the high and low pressure zones on the bb, just some of the important ones, the ones necessary to explain my theory. without a high pressure in the front of the bb, or with equal air pressure in the front and rear of the bb, we are either talking about a bb that is flying through a vacuum at a constant velocity, or a bb that is in free fall with a vector going straight down (falling). in my diagram, i assume the bb is already reached its maximum velocity (the velocity at which the bb exits the muzzle) and can no longer accelerate (or i guess positively accelerate). this would mean that the bb is slowing down due to (in layman's terms) wind resistance. i guess i could show that, but i think assumptions are enough for that so my drawing is easier to understand.

 

from my understanding of physics and pressure and stuff like that, i know that pressure zones tend to somehow equilibriate (if that's even a word). there is a movement of energy (i dunno if energy is the word i'm looking for) from high pressure zones to low pressure zones.

 

like i mentioned earlier, this is only a theory, and everyone is welcome to try to prove my theory wrong. Prove is the key word, and i think your post was merely to allow me to clarify my thoughts.

 

also, in my model, i assume that the bb is constantly tumbling with a constantly changing axis of rotation while the bb is in air. to explain the seemingly straight flight path, i assume that the bb can be observed flying in a tight spiral path similar to how a spring is coiled. the path is so tight and the bb is moving so fast that we are unable to observe such a phenomenon and to us it appears to be going straight.

[Sale]

I got your point across with the F1. I still believe what I saw.

What would you think of someone who told you that he believes that the motor RPM really drops, and the Doppler effect is "just calculations"? That's what you look like to the rest of us. We have a perfectly sound theory as to why it's impossible for the twist barrel to make the BB travel a longer distance, yet you stick to your belief like a kid who still believes in Santa.

 

The biggest resistance in this thread is people relying on calculations rather than actually buying the barrel and trying it out for themselves.

You make two mistakes there.

 

1) I haven't provided a single calculation against this belief of yours. Only laws of physics, which you have been unable to counter.

2) I actually have the barrel in my VP-70M, I've tried it in two Hi-Capas, Stealthbomber has tried it in an AEG and seen it work in a pistol... Who are you talking about when you mention people who haven't tried the barrel?

 

I've said numerous times that it's a fair precision barrel, and I wouldn't advise against buying it. But to claim that it makes the BB fly a longer distance is just hogwash.

 

asinapple8805: The Twist barrel does not impart any spin on the BB, as the rifling doesn't engage the BB. Even if it did, in that case the BB would have a spiral-like trajectory but it would also drop rapidly, because the lift would not be directed upwards. The fact that air is "packed" below the BB from the hop-up spin is exactly why the trajectory is flat, or may even curve up. If you make the BB change the axis of rotation, the direction of the "lift" changes as well, and the hop-up effect would indeed create a spiral - but then it couldn't be a flat one. This disproves your theory.

 

-Sale

[asinapple8805]

sale, i guess you are going on the assumption that the only way to add range to an object that's spherical is backspin. i think this is where you and i differ.

 

i think that backspin is not the only way to increase range on a projectile.

 

the reason why i believe that the bb is spinning on a strange, constantly rotating axis is because such an axis gives the bb stability in it's flight.

 

i have two more possible reasons why the bb must psuedo spiral.

 

1. the idea of gyroscopic motion. it's much easier to keep a bike (a two wheeled machine) upright if you are pedaling compared to remaining completely still.

 

 

2. because a spherical object will tend to knuckle (in reference to the American sport of Baseball), not follow a nice and straight trajectory, and therefore be unstable if it is not rotating on a perfectly horizontal axis. read about the Magnus Effect.

 

also, if you get a chance, read this topic on another forum:

 

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-17721.html

 

it will teach a few things like e-manners, and projectiles. at one point someone mentions a spherical object. also interestingly enough, one of the main educators on this forum claims that bullet phyiscs cause a bullet to drop slower than it's expected fall time (i think that's what he said). Also he talks about how it is important to have the right amount of spiral, mass, size, and velocity in order to see an increase in accuracy and possibly therefore range. relating that to airsoft, that's where the argument "it takes a good tuner to see good results with a hop twist barrel" comes into play.

 

another interesting point he makes is that there is a trade off between the spiraling of a bullet and the velocity. he says that spiraling can increase accuracy, but at the same time decrease velocity. this is where the chrono results appear to be lower when using a tanio koba hop twist barrel.

 

let me know what you think. I'm curious to see how i'm going to be flamed on this one. remember, it's important to attack ideas, not people. In debate, they stress the importance of making arguments that are not ad hominem. for those who don't speak latin (i sure as hell don't remember what i learned in middle school) ad hominem refers to attacks against a person instead of attacking their beliefs.

[Stealthbomber]

 

This is the maddest thing I've seen all week.

It completely disregards the entire reason hop-up works.

 

Also, while I'm at it, here's a couple of random observations:-

 

1) If anything happens to improve a BBs flight through the barrel, you'll know about it when you chrono it.

2) I'm sick of people constantly preaching to me to test this out rather than use calculations.

3) Why are we talking about 400fps velocities when, apparently, the TK barrel works at 1J?

4) I found Prom' 6.03 barrels to be better than KM or Systema barrels and the TK barrel as well.

 

But, all that aside, that drawing really wants deleting so nobody ever finds it and thinks it actually means something.

 

*EDIT*

I'm also finding a certain amount of irony in that people say we should test this stuff rather than talking about it theoretically and, when Sale and I mention that we HAVE tested this and got different results, it's suggested that we're not doing it right and, in response, we're offered a bunch of theoretical nonsense to explain the results that we're NOT seeing.

[asinapple8805]

the point i'm trying to make, stealthbomber, is that the conventional hopup is an old design. tried and true. whatever you want to call it.

 

the tanio koba hop twist barrel is a new and innovative design to the old hop units. i spent time writing my theory on how the TK barrel works for a few reasons.

 

1. to show that the TK barrel uses a different technology than the conventional methods

2. to show that it is not just a gimmick

3. to demonstrate why i believe that the TK barrel is an important piece of technology and to give myself more credit so i'm not just another fool who buys into placebos.

 

it's like comparing a smootbore gun/cannon to a rifled-barrel gun/cannon. sure, a smoothbore gets the job done (it's won wars in the past, dropped countless animals, sunk countless ships, and destroyed the walls of countless fortresses), but if there's something thats new and possibly better out there, why not go for it?

 

also, why do you care about guns that shoot hotter than your legal limit in the UK anyway?

 

the idea is to be open minded. maybe it works for some people, but doesn't work for others. you can hate it all you want, but in the end, i know my performance gains are worth that extra money on low fps, short-barreled tunes.

 

for everyone else out there still reading this thread, it really is for you to decide. to tell you the truth, i don't use a TK hop twist in all of my guns, just a select few i've had in the past. they are great barrels if you're looking to build a specific gun however if you're looking for a build with more velocity, then this is not for you. the only things that i currently own that have a velocity low enough to make use of a TK barrel are pistols.

 

if nothing else, a TK barrel will give you at least comparable range to a tightbore even though the barrel itself is not a tightbore. i think that in itself says something about the magical forces at work (and honestly, it's not that much more expensive than a standard tightbore).

 

P.S. sorry if i have ever attacked you personally, stealthbomber. i didn't mean to. there's a reason why evo said what he said about the prometheus tightbore barrels. if you're that interested (which i'm guessing you're not) in finding out what it is, then pm me.

[Glenn]

asinaapple: So the TK barrel eliminates the hop effect? Without a dP across the vertical axis of the barrel, you don't get lift.

 

And the TK barrel influences airflow around the BB 10, 20, 40 meters down range?

 

AND you think that rotation around the boreline axis stabilizes a sphere despite the fact that it's three principle moments of inertia are equal?

 

AND you think the Magnus effect is beneficial to a bore axis spinning BB? The Magnus effect (modified Bernouli) is what Hop Up creates. Backspin means air passes over the top of the BB faster, the bottom slower, creating a dP by conservation of heads. IF the BB spins on its horizontal axis, incoming air sees axis-symetric, and thus no dP arrises. BUT, should a crosswind hit the BB, you'll get a dP pulling up, down, left, right or some vector.

 

How about you do this:

 

Read something on external ballistics.

 

Don't make anymore diagrams.

 

Shut up.

[asinapple8805]

read my earlier post, it's not rotating along the bore axis.

 

i didn't mention anything about a spiraling air current that the bb floats on... that's just stupid.

 

also, have you ever tried to overhop a gun with a TK barrel? the bb doesn't go Up completely on the vertical axis, it goes up and hooks right or left (i forgot which direction). Obviously that means something.

 

and thanks for flaming me. it's not hard to play the internet tough guy.

[Glenn]

Jesus, remember the shut up part? You're theories are utter hog wash. All they need is pixie dust. Unstable if not rotating on a horizontal axis? Axis of rotation constantly changes? Equilibriates? Seriously, when you promote psuedoscience as science, you're doing everyone a disservice. You drew a dP across the horizontal axis of the BB and said it wasn't accelerating. You specifcally state, in your post with the diagram, that the pressure that creates lift reduces range, and that TK barrels somehow eliminate this pressure.

 

Stop.

 

And as far as internet tough guy, I'm really just an enraged engineer. Tough doesn't enter into it. Everyone is telling you how reality works, and you choose to dance off into your own fantasies, rather than learn and grow...why?

[Stealthbomber]

P.S. sorry if i have ever attacked you personally, stealthbomber. i didn't mean to. there's a reason why evo said what he said about the prometheus tightbore barrels. if you're that interested (which i'm guessing you're not) in finding out what it is, then pm me.

If you have any information you wish to share then feel free to post it up for scrutiny.

 

Personally, I'm well aware that stainless steel is not the easiest material to work with.

I usually recommend that people buy Prometheus barrels from a domestic supplier, rather than buying in HK, because of the possibility that the barrel isn't manufactured correctly.

I must say, I've never seen a badly made Prom' barrel but I'm willing to believe they exist.

 

You're not gonna say they warp in hot weather, are you?

 

also, have you ever tried to overhop a gun with a TK barrel? the bb doesn't go Up completely on the vertical axis, it goes up and hooks right or left (i forgot which direction). Obviously that means something.

 

Erm, that's exactly the way the hop-up works on EVERY airsoft gun I've every shot.

 

The theory behind it is that, as the BB backspins, the air can travel faster over the top than it can over the bottom, thus creating a differential pressure and, as a result, lift.

However, when the BB first leaves the barrel the strongest force is exerted by the air behind the BB and, as a result, it travels straight.

As the BB slows, the force behind the BB reduces and, as long as the BB is still backspinning, the lift becomes greater in proportion to the linear force.

If the hop-up isn't applied exactly to the top of the BB it will curve left or right as well as rising.

That's the science of what makes a BB fly straight and then lift/curve when you apply too much hop.

 

Incidentally, there's a "tricks of the trade" thread somewhere and this issue is specifically mentioned.

The idea was, basically, once you know which way your BBs lift/curve at the end of the flight, rather than trying to make your hop-up perfect, simply tilt the gun onto one side or the other.

 

And, back on page 2, that's why we all agreed that the forces exerted on a BB in the barrel can be measured.

The power can be measured by a chrono.

The direction can be measured by lining your sights up on a target.

The hop-up can be measured (approximately) by ensuring the BB has the flattest trajectory.

 

If you can, for some reason, make a BB travel in a straight line with less hop-up then the BB WILL travel further because the hop-up will have slowed the BB less.

Of course, that will be measured as increased muzzle velocity.

 

Point being that (as far as I can see) there's no unmeasurable variable that can account for increased range or accuracy.

 

Also, Glenn. Chill out and avoid personal attacks. I know it's frustrating but try.

[RSP1]

1. Some have mentioned that the TK barrel needs to have proper tuning in order to work - in other words, other parts of the gun should be optimized to get the benefits of a twistbore. Have you tried applying the same tuning to a PDI 6.01mm barrel, which is comparable in cost, or a Prometheus 6.03mm, which is comparable in inner diameter?

 

2. It's been mentioned that the twistbore barrel requires 1J or less energy to function properly. My own anecdotal experience is that guns with less than around 350 FPS can, with a good hop-up as seen in many TM guns, seem to have range beyond what would be expected. The ability of the hop-up to extend the range of a 1J gun seems more dramatic than in a 2J gun, whether it is or not. Combined with the placebo effect of installing any upgrade, could this explain some of the perceived benefits?

 

3. Expanding on both 1 and 2. Most of the anecdotal evidence points out guns at ~330 FPS beating out guns at 400-500 FPS, apparently due to a TK twistbore. At the local skirmish site I go to, there is a measured distance of 150 feet for adjusting hop-up and otherwise testing out guns before each round. Now and then, one will see a gun at 350 FPS beat out one at 430 FPS in range - yet nobody uses a twist barrel. My explanation for this is that many of the upgraders there focus on two things: high FPS and long barrels. Meanwhile, someone who leaves their gun at stock velocity and uses quality hop-up parts, and looks for good quality short barrels vs. low quality long barrels, has the advantage in range. My point in this is that the users of TK barrels may have better hop-up units, superior non-twist barrels, or more consistent compression than those who just go for high FPS - generating these results.

[Sale]

if you get a chance, read this topic on another forum:

 

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-17721.html

I promise to look into that, but I can tell you already that it deals with a rifle bullet, which is not spherical. When talking about rifle projectiles, things like ballistic coefficiency and such come into play, and real weapons don't have hop-up. Real steel ballistics are interesting, but there's only so much you can apply to Airsoft.

 

I once asked a mate of mine - who studies ballistics - about stabilizing a spherical bullet, and he said any consistent spin would make the BB behave in a predictable manner. Seeing as an Airsoft gun with a well set hop-up seems to be more accurate than one without hop-up, I would argue both theoretically and on a practical level that the hop-up already stabilizes the BB. Doesn't it create a gyroscopic effect?

 

When I first saw Rocken rifled barrels in 2001 (the ones that disable hop-up entirely), I thought if it was possible to add a hop-up and a rifling twist to the BB, to make the trajectory of the BB spiral-like. I just thought it would have been neat, but it was quite obvious that the benefit of the hop-up would be completely eliminated, and the trajectory wouldn't be flat like with a plain hop-up barrel. Even the Rocken barrels allow the BB to drop through, so they don't add a spin to the BB.

 

another interesting point he makes is that there is a trade off between the spiraling of a bullet and the velocity. he says that spiraling can increase accuracy, but at the same time decrease velocity. this is where the chrono results appear to be lower when using a tanio koba hop twist barrel.

The velocities with the Twist-Barrel are lower because there's "blow-by" from the grooves. It does not impart any spin on the BB. Drop a BB through it and you'll see.

 

In debate, they stress the importance of making arguments that are not ad hominem. for those who don't speak latin (i sure as hell don't remember what i learned in middle school) ad hominem refers to attacks against a person instead of attacking their beliefs.

If you look into the previous posts in this thread, you'll see that I already appealed to avoid the fallacies in a debate, but this evo-dude thought he's above the rules of a proper debate. I'm not claiming to be the wise guy either, because I don't know how to stop. It's extremely difficult for me to back down when I'm right, so the debate goes on ad nauseam.

 

the tanio koba hop twist barrel is a new and innovative design to the old hop units.

Why don't you stop and listen to Mr. Koba himself? He says that it doesn't impart extra spins on the BB, and it's not a new design to the hop-up unit. The purpose of the barrel is to make the contact between the BB and barrel bore consistent and minimal - as to not interfere with the hop-up spin - so the barrel would be more accurate. Range is not increased, but the groupings should improve.

 

it's like comparing a smootbore gun/cannon to a rifled-barrel gun/cannon. sure, a smoothbore gets the job done (it's won wars in the past, dropped countless animals, sunk countless ships, and destroyed the walls of countless fortresses), but if there's something thats new and possibly better out there, why not go for it?

Look into cannons and you'll find that the majority of modern artillery are smoothbore, because the ammunition is stabilized by other means. Just like an airsoft gun uses an alternative method (hop-up) to stabilize the projectile.

 

the idea is to be open minded. maybe it works for some people, but doesn't work for others. you can hate it all you want, but in the end, i know my performance gains are worth that extra money on low fps, short-barreled tunes.

If I was narrow-minded, I would tell people not to buy it at all. Look into my posts and see that the only thing I'm arguing against is this magical longer trajectory. They are good barrels and may do wonders to your accuracy with correct installation and good parts, but they don't make the BB fly a longer distance.

 

I can't quite understand how this idea is so difficult to grasp. I'm really only questioning one point (and even the designer of the barrel himself agrees with me), but somehow my posts are interpreted to diss Japanese tuners and hate the TK twist barrels?

 

if nothing else, a TK barrel will give you at least comparable range to a tightbore even though the barrel itself is not a tightbore. i think that in itself says something about the magical forces at work (and honestly, it's not that much more expensive than a standard tightbore).

A 300 fps AEG with a TK barrel, a 300 fps AEG with a 6.01 barrel, a 300 fps AEG with a 6.04 barrel do indeed have comparable range. And by "comparable" I mean "the same". If one is more accurate than the other, the effective range will be extended, but the average trajectory will be the same.

 

RSP1: The lift created by the hop-up relies not only on the spin, but also the forward movement. Off the top of my head, I would imagine that with a high velocity Airsoft gun you have to apply less spin to the BB, because otherwise it would curve up rapidly. A lower powered setup allows you to set the hop-up to give a faster spin to the BB, which means that the BB will have more spin downrange as well. This could explain why lower powered models would seem to achieve a longer range than we would imagine.

 

-Sale

[Carrion]

oh this whole topic is just full of lol.

 

have any of you actualy attempted to modle the effect by any chance using a dedicated engineering flow model grnerator>

 

i guess not. so untill someone gets of there *albartroth* and does this all the arguments for it are a matter of hearsay

[Glenn]

No, they're not. CFD is fine and dandy. I type this message from the UMASS CFD Research lab. I'm just mucking around, I'm not CFD expert, but I've got an office here. The guy next to me is writing his on CFD code.

 

 

CFD solves all sorts of neat problems, but CFD codes are written off of the basic physics we're discussing.

 

What we're talking about isn't complicated, its fundamental. Many here don't understand the ground rules of physics. CFD won't help there. Besides, CFD is totally chairsofting.

 

[Carrion]

yes basic rules which the universe in general kind of runs on.

 

me thinks that no japanese guy regardless of how clever can alter them.

 

 

[Sale]

I looked into the link asinapple8805 provided, http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-17721.html

 

Mike Sewell seems to be the man to quote. Most importantly:

 

"Once a bullet leaves the muzzle of a gun, the shooter's influence on it is over. Nothing can be done to change the path of the projectile once it is in flight."

-And as we measure the velocity after the BB has left the barrel, and we can see how much backspin it had... You figure out where I'm going.

 

"The spin on a bullet does not in any way violate the the law of conservation of momentum. It doesn't give you a free lunch."

-Pretty much what I've said all along. Twist or no twist, it can't magically make the BB travel longer.

 

"The spin introduced by the rifle's bore is for stability only, and not for any other reason. You are trying too hard to find other uses for spin here. There just aren't any."

-So even if the TK barrel did introduce another spin to the BB, it would only serve stability.

 

EDIT:

 

Carrion: The clever Japanese guy doesn't claim to have extended the range. He may have funny ideas about achieving precision with this design of his, but he specifically said that it does not extend the range. The stuff that defies physics has been invented by other people somewhere between the distribution network and end-users. Not by Tanio Kobayashi.

 

-Sale

[Delfi]

I'd like to ask a simple question of the TK believers ...

 

Does the mass of the BB affect how efficient the TK barrel is? If so, how?

 

D