Flecktarn Vs. US digital

[Cinder]

right, This is about how acu's are crazy and change color, but the reason they appear gray in the pic where the guy is standing up is because they have to literally be RIGHT next to what they are camoflauging themselves with......

 

 

arrrrrgggg nooo, sorry double post....

[Peyton]

Cinder, do you know of any sites that show more pictures of the ACU? All I've been able to find were pictures of the ACU released on the Army's birthday last year. It looks quite interesting.

 

Catch, sorry. :-S

[cazboab]

ACU looks cool even when is not blended in (IMO), flektardn and marpat look goofy in the wrong context. However no matter how hard i try i just cant say i like either flektarn, digicam or multicam, over good old british DPM

 

*"Rule Britannia" strikes up*

 

god damn it I'm British, not German or American, I know they look good in there fancy uniforms ment to 'blend in' but give em 6 inches of steel and thay go a runnin' they dont like it up 'em sah, they do not like it up 'em

[joeking27]

Brittish

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just though I'd highlight the error before Caz corrected it

[Cinder]

I just went to google search and found pics of ACU, and met a few green berets who had the new camo. The deal with the ACU is that it does not work great in any single enviroment, but works well in all enviroments. For example in Iraq, a grunt might pass through an oasis, then desert, then city, then oasis, and then desert in a few hours and would be adequately camouflaged in all enviroments. This is the reason it is not suitable for airsofters. We will predominately stay in one enviroment and should pick the best camouflage according to vegetation/ time of year, this is why marpat or cadpat is more suitable for airsoft. More pictures.......

[doc_newstead]

The deal with the ACU is that it does not work great in any single enviroment, but works well in all enviroments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So it's like the old German olive-grey camo then?

 

Which got replaced by flecktarn in 1976 if I recall correctly...

 

/runs

/hides

 

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/en_00009.php

[Cinder]

So it's like the old German olive-grey camo then?

 

Which got replaced by flecktarn in 1976 if I recall correctly...

 

/runs

/hides

 

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/en_00009.php

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

but it was issued in 85, so, um...

 

/runs

 

/hides

[doc_newstead]

Issued/trialed...

 

You seen ARPAT on the TV yet?

[Catchv22]

Yes. There was some hubub about National Guard Units getting to try their new equipment and about how units going into Iraq and Afghanistan would be issued the ACUs next rotation.

 

Honestly, Germany isn't going to involve itself with too many different conflicts and chose a camouflage pattern to suit their environment. The US forces, on the other hand, find themselves in all sorts of terrain. A more universal pattern would be smarter to issue, though only time will tell if this one-camo-fits-all-terrain idea.

[TMC]

Honestly, Germany isn't going to involve itself with too many different conflicts and chose a camouflage pattern to suit their environment. The US forces, on the other hand, find themselves in all sorts of terrain. A more universal pattern would be smarter to issue, though only time will tell if this one-camo-fits-all-terrain idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a pretty good point there.

 

Is there, perchance, any pictures of that jungle stalker stuff in action? I liked it. It's 85% compatible with MARPAT.

[TheFrag]

So it's like the old German olive-grey camo then?

 

Which got replaced by flecktarn in 1976 if I recall correctly...

 

/runs

/hides

 

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/en_00009.php

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know what you are getting at, but while olive-grey german "camo" was designed to work in all situations, flecktarn was most certainly not.

[guinnessman]

I have MARPAT, but I was torn between that and Flecktarn. In fact I might get a Flecktarn rig as well to go with my G36. Then I'd just HAVE to get an M14 to go with the MARPAT, not that I want to of course.....

 

Have to agree with TMC's earlier argument though. As long as you wear something neutral to your surroundings, with the right choice of position and enough discipline to keep still, you can effectively dissappear. Let's face it, ambushes have been a fact of life in military history long before camouflage was scientifically researched. For me, as long as the camo is not going to be out of place in the environment I'm gaming in, it's a question of what I think looks kewl. I wouldn't criticise anyone for their choice of attire in an airsoft game, unless it was something ridiculous like a dress, and the wearer didn't have the legs for it .After all, it's only a game.

 

An absolute fantastic game that has consumed much of my earnings over the last few months (and will no doubt continue to do so in the future), but still a game, nonetheless.

[Banzai]

Muti-Cam is teh b3stes7

[catsfrommars]

Muti-Cam is teh b3stes7

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup! And it's American too! LET THE BASHING BEGIN!

 

Actually I never did know why the Army higher ups went for the ACU. Even when MultiCam aka "scorpion" pattern beat out all the competition... I guess what it all adds up too is the lowest bidder... Maybe they're saving up the Multicamo when we really need it like the tigerstrip in Vietnam where only Special Forces used it... maybe only Special Forces can use MultiCam?

 

Anyways here's what I think. The ACU is to be used in the urban/arid desert/artic setting now rather than the woods since that's where all the fighting is now. You'd most likely see Army troops there now a days instead of the jungle or European Forests.

[Maple-Leaf]

I just went to google search and found pics of ACU,

 

Yeah - but the problem with those pictures is that they don't show the ARPAT (correct name of the camo pattern - ACU is the name of the uniform; like "woodland" and "BDU") in actual use in ANY environment.

 

The THEORY was that its supposed to work reasonably well in many environments, rather than really well in one or two (and not very well in many others). The REALITY is that it doesn't. MULTICAM does, but its camo shapes probably looked too similar to woodland for the Army brass - and it was designed by an outsider. No doubt the Army brass's desire for a cool 21st century-looking digital uniform (to stand up against the Marines') out gunned the need for a really effective camo for the grunts.

 

Bottom line is - the troops at the sharp end are reporting that it sucks and I can look at from my experience and expertise and say that I think it sucks too (except in some urban or mountainous settings).

 

MARPAT rocks.

CADPAT rocks.

Flecktarn rocks.

Danish M84 rocks.

period.

[Bolleh]

I don't know where you heard that the troops think that the ACU sucks. The general consensus on Lightfighter seems to be that those who have been issued with it are happy with it. I also don't know why you think that it would suck in anything other than arid/mountainous/urban terrain. The thought behind the ACU has been explained by myself and others previously in the thread.

I have also attached a picture of (replica) ARPAT in the woods to show that it seems to work pretty well considering that its a multiple environment camouflage.

 

I think TMC was right though, as long as your camouflage isn't totally off then you will be OK. No camouflage can effectively blend a figure into its surroundings if they are just standing there. The bottom line is that camouflage is there to help you blend in, not do it for you.

[Maple-Leaf]

I don't know where you heard that the troops think that the ACU sucks.

 

Check out the thread on Paratrooper.net: http://www.paratrooper.net/commo/Default.aspx

 

The thought behind the ACU has been explained by myself and others previously in the thread.

 

Yeah, I know the thinking behind it. Thinking that lead to the very good MULTICAM, and the very lame ARPAT (I still say its because the brass wanted to keep up in the fashion parade and have a digital camo uniform as well - and since the Canadians had green and the Marines had brown, grey was the only thing left).

 

I refer you again to read this: http://www.hyperstealth.com/acupat/

 

I have also attached a picture of (replica) ARPAT in the woods to show that it seems to work pretty well considering that its a multiple environment camouflage.

 

That looks more like MARPAT to me. Besides, ANYBODY would be hidden behind that thick bush.

 

And I said I thought ARPAT would work well in urban, scrubland, and dry mountainous areas because of its pale "greyish-green" colourations.

 

Sorry - buy whatever you want, but I'm still not convinced by any EVIDENCE that ARPAT really is a good multi-environment camouflage.

[TMC]

That link on paratrooper.net goes to nowhere.

 

The ACU has gotten praise on lightfighter. Those are guys that rely on it more than we would.

 

Hell, I know this doesn't count so much, but in Ghost recon 2, the ARPAT camo skins blend in way better than the woodland skins.. on pretty much any environment.

 

Multicam is superior to all, though. That stuff is like alien cloaking device technology.

[Maple-Leaf]

That link on paratrooper.net goes to nowhere.

 

yeah, the site seems to be having some techy glitches. The guys on there though are real paras and other troops serving at the sharpest end of things. And as an ex-para myself, I listen to what they say.

 

The ACU has gotten praise on lightfighter.

 

In what context and in what environments though?

 

Hell, I know this doesn't count so much, but in Ghost recon 2, the ARPAT camo skins blend in way better than the woodland skins.. on pretty much any environment.

 

Beating Woodland is no great achievement....

 

Multicam is superior to all, though. That stuff is like alien cloaking device technology.

 

Indeed - I just can't work out why the US Army didn't choose it - probably becuase of politics (just like everything else).

[Duff Beer]

Oh God,

 

Can't you hear them already? The millions of Flecktarn lovers that are about to flame this thread.

 

I like Digi Tiger BTW!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Puts on Nomex, pulls down welding mask, lights blow torch, flames thread.

 

Seroulsy though, Here in the UK Flecktarn is awesome in autumn, and good in summer as long as the orange isn't too bright. Plus where I play everyone was in US and UK stuff so I was the odd one out.

[xRAZERx]

Marines also prefer a 40 year old AR15 over a state of the art weapon like the XM8 ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep and a 70 year old 1911 over an M9....

 

Here's something that might make you think.

 

If you rely on the camoflage you wear to keep you concealed... then you must be pretty *beep*.

 

At my last skirmish, meh (username) popped out of NOWHERE in a woodland game. What camoflage was he wearing?

 

Khaki shorts, brownish red t-shirt. He used the surroundings to conceal himself as he moved.

 

Nobody should expect to just stand in the open and not be seen. It's stupid. The best camoflage is nature.

 

edit: KWP.. while that isn't a fair image, I will say I laughed heartily at the eyes in the bush.

 

Though have you seen the USAF tigerstripe stuff? laff!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That USAF stuff isn't for field use though is it....

[TMC]

Just because a weapon is old, doesn't mean it's ######.

 

The 1911 is 94 years old, actually.

 

I would like to call up bolleh's signature.

 

"GIs carrying 1911s defeated Axis forces, including Austrians. The 1911 was winning battles and saving lives before Gaston Glock was even born - somewhere along the way we probably figured out a thing or two on combat handguns." –Larry Vickers

 

http://anime-haven.org/asmodeus/images/warfare/ACU/

 

ACU in here. Blends pretty well.

 

Oh, the one where the guy is standing in the middle of the field with the orange smoke behind him? US marine in airsoft... he has an XM8 kit on his G36, the ######.

[xRAZERx]

"It all started around February of 2000. I had just been transferred from Scout Sniper Platoon 2/2 at Camp Lejeune to TBS in Quantico, Va. as a combat instructor (training new lieutenants just out of OCS). I had gained a great deal of experience and training with STA 2/2 and had gotten a Purple Heart from being wounded during an embassy reinforcement in Monrovia, Liberia in May of 1996. I had tons of ribbons and medals for being just a Sergeant (E-5) and the Purple Heart on top of that sort of made me a novelty around the place. So when two Captains from MarCorSysCom solicited TBS for me to give a lecture on camouflage for them to some students at the University of Virginia who were working on some new design theories for camouflage and colors in textiles, TBS gave them free reign of me for a few days. The guys from SysCom were impressed with me at the lecture and tried to steal me from TBS to help them work on some of their projects but since there was not a billet for me in their T/O&E, they had to "temp loan" me on an as-needed basis. I did some work for them on the camouflage helmet cover (a commercial one that would take the place of a scrap piece of IR netting), the new lightweight helmet, and a few other programs.

 

When General Jones, the Commandant at the time, sent the directive to SysCom to develop a new and improved uniform for the Marine Corps...the guys at SysCom came straight to me. At first I thought, "Cool, no problem...I'll just check out some current patterns, maybe tweak some color schemes and be done." Boy was I wrong. SysCom flew me up to Natick and put me in touch with two of their civilian textile engineers that ran the current uniform program. There, they had gathered samples of just about every kind of after market cammo pattern you could think of. I spent about a day with them explaining to them how "wrong" most after market hunting camo patterns are. I told them about negative space, how the eye uses templates to identify objects...etc etc. In talking to them about negative space, I told them that the best type of camouflage pattern is one that looks...like nothing at all.

 

I basically chose 3 patterns out of the 150+ that they had. One was the classic Vietnam issue tiger stripe. Another was a contemporary commercial tiger stripe. The third was an old Rhodesian coloration of the old version of British DPM. We took the samples down to Fall River, Mass. to a company that fabricates printing screen rolls for fabric textiles. There, they had their own computer shop that could do just about anything under the sun with graphics and color schemes. We scanned the samples onto their computers with a huge table-sized flatbed scanner. They brought the samples up on the screens for me where they were able to separate each color pattern into its own image file. After doing that, we could change color schemes and actually edit portions of the patterns to our liking.

 

Since this was the first trip up there, we were just trying to get some ideas flowing. We changed the color schemes of all three patterns and printed them out on some production sample paper. Everything looked good at that point and I thought we had even possibly found a contender in the modified pattern and color scheme we had gotten out of the Rhodesian DPM. The color scheme was great, it was more functional and the color blotches had been reduced in size which made the pattern work better. However, after that trip was over and I sat looking at the patterns more, I realized that I needed to be thinking outside the box and that there was a lot bigger picture to what it was that I was doing. This uniform would be taking the Marine Corps into the 21st century. Marines would be depending on this uniform to do something that no other uniform has truly done to date...conceal them in a great variety of surroundings and vegetation types. This uniform would be taking my fellow Marines into battle. My fellow Marines would be wearing it on foreign ground, depending on this uniform to do its job. When I had an epiphany and imagined a squad of Marines wearing this uniform in combat in some far off rat hole, and that the very design of its pattern and color scheme could save a life...I changed gears completely. This uniform not only needed to actually WORK, it needed to be unique . It needed to be something that the Marine Corps could call its own and that would single Marines out. It was then that I knew I could not do this by myself.

 

Being stationed at TBS in Quantico, I had easy access to a pool of fellow snipers just down the road at the sniper school. I went over to the school and talked to the SNCOIC (editor - we'll call him 'Gunny H.' for PERSEC) there with whom I had been in the same battalion with in Somalia in 1993. I told him all about the program and that I needed some more people to help me brain storm. He was enthusiastic about it so I told the guys at SysCom about it. They agreed to let us work together and brought the crew from Natick down to listen to a presentation from us at the sniper school. We all sat around and brain stormed a bit with the rest of the sniper school staff and even the current class that was attending the school. We also took the RARE opportunity to tell the people who design our gear, what REAL operators who actually use and abuse the equipment they design wanted, what could be improved, and what was absolutely not needed.

 

SysCom then sent us both back up to Fall River. We looked at the patterns that had been done on the previous trip and tweaked the color schemes a little more. 'H' had found a color swatch from the Ralph Lauren paint

section of Home Depot that was great. It was called "Coyote" (recognize the name from the main Marine base in Kuwait for the Iraq war?) We had the girl in the CAD shop scan the Coyote swatch and replace the color into the patterns that I had worked on the previous trip. Coyote was to become the primary functional color in the pattern. The colors were GREAT but we were not happy with using a pre-existing pattern. The engineers from Natick had obtained a sample of the new CADPAT. It looked good in theory but the color scheme was way off for our use. The Canadians had used way too much bright lime-green in the pattern. Their color scheme is good for northern evergreen and deciduous areas such as Canada and Europe but is not a "universal" pattern that would work well in any vegetation. Particularly in deciduous areas in winter months.

 

*Note: I will officially dispel the current circulating rumor that the Canadians helped advise the Marine Corps on the design of MARPAT. At no point in time in any shape, form or fashion did we consult, solicit or even ask a modest opinion from the Canadians. The only thing that MARPAT lends its origin to from the Canadians is a small scrap of cloth that compelled us to try out the idea and the -PAT descriptor. You can read a version of the CADPAT myth here at http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm . You will also see how the ignoramus editor of the hyperstealth site is making a speculation as to how the insignia is hidden in the fabric. It is really interesting to hear so many rumors out there about how this "technology" was leased, borrowed, consulted etc etc. When all we did was something anyone on a home computer with Adobe Photoshop can do on their own.

 

 

We arrived at the design of the pattern by having the girl create a "snow" screen on her computer to simulate that of a TV with no reception. She then went in and sectioned out areas of the pattern to which our colors were then added. It took a good bit of refining and pattern modification, but by the second day it came out good. We tweaked the colors just a bit more, printed out a sample, and were done.

 

Next came the test phase. Natick had uniforms made in what we decided would be two main test patterns. Two uniforms were made out of the modified tiger stripe we had made. Each of the two had the some of the color areas reversed for variance of effect. The same was done with the digital pattern. The uniforms were then taken down to Quantico and tested in a wide variety of vegetation, always using the current issue uniform for control. Sunlight, shadow, dawn, daylight, dusk, night, grass, bushes, trees, shrubs, wood piles. You name it, we tested it there and at all different distances with naked eye, optics and night vision. It was hands down. The digital pattern blew the others away in every single test we did over a two day period. At that point it would be decided that the digital pattern would be the one used in the new uniform.

 

As far as the use of colors and the dyes used to print the colors to fabric...that was a considerable portion of our testing as well. We tested the patterns in different levels of light, at different ranges, with the naked eye as well as varying powers of optics. We used night vision with and without IR illumination. We used red lens filtered light, spot lights and regular old Mini-Mag lights. We also got the uniforms wet to simulate a wet Marine who has been sweating heavily or been in the rain. This was very significant as the wet fabric test is what helped make MARPAT so superior. Almost all of the other patterns tested as well as CADPAT failed miserably when wet compared to MARPAT. Wet fabric, at night through night vision painted with IR light is in my opinion one of the best tests for a pattern. So many patterns just appear as a solid black mass in this setting. MARPAT doesn't.

 

The next phase of testing would be for a desert pattern. We took another trip to Natick and modified the color scheme to better suit a desert uniform. Most desert uniforms either work great in high desert with rocky areas, and suck in sandy areas, or just the opposite. Three variations of desert color schemes were produced and taken to 29 Palms, Ca. for testing against the current 3-color desert uniform. A version of the pattern and color scheme was identified that worked best in both rocky areas as well as sand. Once again, it blew the current issue uniform away.

 

Having decided on both patterns and color schemes for the new uniform. Our job was done. The actual cut and features of the uniform would be developed and tested by the textile engineers by taking our input on what should be changed and their own ideas and issuing uniforms to units in the field for testing. Before the end of our last trip to Fall River, and I am pretty proud to claim this for myself Smile I had the idea of placing USMC into the pattern design. 'H' thought it would be good to also put in the eagle, globe and anchor with it, just like the iron on decal that we used on our uniforms. The engineers agreed and so it was done on the computer.

 

That was about all the use Natick and SysCom had for us on the new uniform. They got the new cut and design of the blouse and trousers done and ready for development. I wish they had asked us before they decided to make the boonie cover brim so damn wide, but oh well. They did, however take our advise on the suede desert boots as a universal hot weather boot and that went into production. The rest is sort of history so to speak. The sad irony is that I got out of the Corps in Feb. of 2001 to become a cop. I never even got the chance to wear the uniform that I had been the first to help design since the first uniforms did not hit the fleet until the end of that same year.

 

I do have to admit that a huge lump rose in my throat the first time I saw CNN and they showed a platoon of Marines wearing desert MARPAT in combat at Nasirya. I cant put into words the sense of pride that I felt seeing my fellow Marines, who also just happened to have been from my old regiment, wearing "my" uniform in combat. I saw this picture and was even more proud.

 

 

 

 

Then, when they were interviewing Marines in camp "Coyote"...well....that was just the icing on the cake.

 

That is the official story on how MARPAT came about and how we did it. Hope it was entertaining to you to a degree as well as informative. Don't hesitate to ask any questions you may have and feel free to share the info with your friends.

 

Semper Fi

Ken Henley

Former Sgt, USMC"

[Deepeyes]

I have been up against both types of camo and the original ww2 Flecktarn (now that is a good camo). But anyways the whole Marpat de-focusing your eyes is bull, my eyes have never ever had any problems tracking people in Marpat (you can show me as many reports you want, i'm talkiexperienceperiance). Marpat is still a very effective camo. And I also think Flecktarn iamazing amzing. Any camo is good as long as it matchs your enviroment. As far aconcernonsern camo just makes sure you don't stand out, but if you don't know how to use your enviroment you will be spotted out. Me and the guys here have never ripped into anyone about their choice of camo, except for this one guy who got dutch cawhichcih dubbedbed tulip camo (he though it was british BDU's).

 

A note about the photos people are using, people post one that have enviroments that suit their preference and visversa when they want to discredit a camo. I could show you a naked man with mud on his body as a good camo (but i won't because i don't fancy getting banned).

 

All i can suggest is look at your team mates if they have marpat and Flecktarn see which you like the look of. And if no one has either just pick what you think will suit best or like the look of. Only thing i will recommend is make sure the colours on the shirts and trouser match or it will look naf.

 

I wear standard US woodland BDU's and i have no problem sneeking up on people. Cammo will only do so much.

[Maple-Leaf]

http://anime-haven.org/asmodeus/images/warfare/ACU/

ACU in here. Blends pretty well.

 

Indeed - these "Operation Smackdown" photos demonstrate exactly what I'm saying. ARPAT camo does work very well in urban and in dry scrubland and mountainous regions. Just look at the terrain where those OPSGEAR guys are playing - its all grays and tans and sages, which matches up perfectly with the colours of ARPAT! Incidentally, as you can also see, even the most perfect camo uniform will be rendered useless if you load up with loads of non-camo or solid black gear!

 

If somebody can show me some real photos of ARPAT working just as well in forest and woodland terrains - then I'll atke back every bad word I've said against it.

 

At the end of the day, its like our Kiwi friend said, your camo only does so much and you have to match it against the terrain where you're going to play. How well it HELPS you to disappear into the undergrowth on your terrain is the only criteria that counts in airsoft (for the military they have to worry about things like uniformity and distinctiveness from the enemy too).