Harder BBs damages materials more.

[Smoke]

Agreed, and according to the manufacturer's warnings, shooting at a person that is not wearing full face and head protection IS misuse.

 

If you have a full facemask field, this could be fine. But if you are shooting at people wearing only goggles and maybe a shemagh, you are misusing the bbs, and you can be held legally liable for any damage to that person's face/teeth. It's called negligence.

 

Yep, I have to say I'm with you on this.

 

I'm not usually one for extra rules and regulations in skirmishing, I believe that should be up to sites and market forces. But when a product is quite clearly not designed for - for want of a better term - 'standard' skirmishing I think it's best steered away from.

 

Which then leads to the question of where these were obtained from, if they're so unsuitable for everyday skirmishing.

 

And no, I don't think a bit of paper in the bag saying 'please be careful, this will screw up someone's windscreen' or words to that effect is really sufficient. If these are only suitable for Military/LE use... Only sell them to Military/LE customers.

 

Unfortunately due to the pathetic litigation culture these days, I can see this being a can of worms that the hobby really doesn't need opening (fps, lethality, yadda yadda). In the place they're designed for, or as previously mentioned target shooting, fair enough... I'm quite tempted to get some for plinking... But I'm not sure they have a place on the skirmish field against unknowing human targets. I would have thought the question of consent comes into play at some point?

[Punkypink]

Hear hear. We really don't want to get into a situation where BBs are strictly regulated. When I go skirmishing I consent to being shot at by normal plastic BBs and that is what I assume people are using. If someone used Biovals outside of their intended use and I got a worse injury as a result, I will be SERIOUSLY unhappy. Now we don't want to end up with someone sueing for damages for negligent usage of BBBmaxes for outside of their intended use and ending up dragging the sport into disrepute do we? Within the sport we might be able to tell it's not an "airsoft am bad" issue but to the rest of the general public, they couldn't and wouldn't care if it was some special BBs meant for military and law enforcement and was misused. They'll just latch onto the whole "oh airsoft is evil" thing and that'll be the beginning of the end of this sport we love, all because some people are too stubborn to err on the side of caution.

[expvideo]

Hear hear. We really don't want to get into a situation where BBs are strictly regulated. When I go skirmishing I consent to being shot at by normal plastic BBs and that is what I assume people are using. If someone used Biovals outside of their intended use and I got a worse injury as a result, I will be SERIOUSLY unhappy. Now we don't want to end up with someone sueing for damages for negligent usage of BBBmaxes for outside of their intended use and ending up dragging the sport into disrepute do we? Within the sport we might be able to tell it's not an "airsoft am bad" issue but to the rest of the general public, they couldn't and wouldn't care if it was some special BBs meant for military and law enforcement and was misused. They'll just latch onto the whole "oh airsoft is evil" thing and that'll be the beginning of the end of this sport we love, all because some people are too stubborn to err on the side of caution.

I think from a legal standpoint you are absolutely right. Regardless of what the BB actually can do, if some 14 year old looses a tooth and his mom decides to sue somebody and gets the media involved, it's not going to matter if a plastic BB would have resulted in the same injury. The media will over-play this, because that's what they do, and legislation will soon follow. Mind you this is legislation from people that have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to airsoft, so it will probably be really bad legislation that doesn't help anybody, but does make airsoft even more of a hassle than it already is.

[Jenkem]

every bag of plastic BB's I've ever bought has said right on it that injury or death can result from misuse too.

theres no such thing as a "safe" BB just like theres no such thing as a "safe" cigarette.

you might feel better about yourself for smoking lights but you're still breathing in deadly smoke.

[Punkypink]

I've just taken a look at my ICS BBs, my Blaster BBs and my wolf armory BBs and NONE of them ever say that injury or death can result from misuse. Would you care to take a photo of your plastic BBs with said warning on the label?

 

And putting that aside, in the case of plastic BBs misuse could be a small kid swallowing them. Using them in a standard skirmish is not misuse. Misuse for Bioval BBBmax on the other hand, IS using them in a standard skirmish. How hard is that to understand?

 

You might think theres no difference in smoking lights or regular ciggies, but the reality is that you're smoking on a stick of TNT and deluding yourself that it's just tobacco.

[Utty]

I'm posting this on here short term until I figure out how to get the attached literature displaying on the front page (daddy's's never let me go loose with the crayons before!)

 

Bioval have contacted us and ask that we present the following response:

 

 

 

Attached materials discussed are below. I'll just play with live writer and try and get it to load stuff on here.

So, anyway. Bioval themselves verified that the BBBMAX breaks windshields and windows, because it's a design feature.

 

I guess that concludes this thread?

[Jenkem]

I've just taken a look at my ICS BBs, my Blaster BBs and my wolf armory BBs and NONE of them ever say that injury or death can result from misuse. Would you care to take a photo of your plastic BBs with said warning on the label?

 

And putting that aside, in the case of plastic BBs misuse could be a small kid swallowing them. Using them in a standard skirmish is not misuse. Misuse for Bioval BBBmax on the other hand, IS using them in a standard skirmish. How hard is that to understand?

 

You might think theres no difference in smoking lights or regular ciggies, but the reality is that you're smoking on a stick of TNT and deluding yourself that it's just tobacco.

 

its hard to understand because I've been shooting people with Biovals for weeks with my 370fps Systema at standard skirmishes and no one has been injured or died.

will work on getting that picture of the safety warnings printed on plastic BB bags right away

[GuzziHero]

its hard to understand because I've been shooting people with Biovals for weeks with my 370fps Systema at standard skirmishes and no one has been injured or died.

will work on getting that picture of the safety warnings printed on plastic BB bags right away

 

Then be glad that you dont skirmish where I do. Because I would be *mightily* dischuffed if you damaged my equipment with those things. Id expect that anyone else you skirmish against might feel the same way.

[Jenkem]

guess you better switch to cap guns cuz I got news for you....

 

any BB can break a tooth or a scope.

 

everytime I step onto an airsoft field I expect this and so should you.

 

the best thing you can do is be prepared and cover your face up and think twice about taking out that $600 EOTech

[Aitch]

Or follow the manufacturers guidelines...............

[Marlowe]

the best thing you can do is be prepared and cover your face up and think twice about taking out that $600 EOTech

That and not use ammunition which the manufacturer have stated isn't suitable for most upgraded rifles against live targets.

[Punkypink]

That may be so but surely we don't need a BB that has a higher chance of breaking teeth and equipment just so YOU can shoot further?

 

And like I said, freak accidents might happen. If the guy i mentioned who got shot in the forehead with a 500fps bolty from 6 ft was hit with a BBBmax, dare you say with 100% confidence that he might not have gotten a worse injury than a plastic BB?

[Pte Mong]

guess you better switch to cap guns cuz I got news for you....

 

any BB can break a tooth or a scope.

 

everytime I step onto an airsoft field I expect this and so should you.

 

the best thing you can do is be prepared and cover your face up and think twice about taking out that $600 EOTech

 

 

i've lost teeth and unfortunately (accidentally) i've performed 6mm dentistry on other people.

 

everyone expects to get hit. they dont expect damage to their equipment or injury to themselves.

 

these bbbmax take the ######. like has been said they are designed for Military/LE usage. using these in the field in a sport which relies on honour and sportsmanship IMO is tantamount to assault, seeing as you now know the damage they can inflict.

 

pork knuckles and expvideo hero test subject aside, these rounds may well be slick as the proverbial and feed ever so nicely but dont the pics of the damage your ammo of choice causes worry you?

 

 

[Marlowe]

(Antagonistic comments removed to nip that in the bud)

 

Edit: I've had a lot of people wishing to add productive comments / ideas here, so I'm going to re-open this temporarily. Should I spot any more bickering it'll be closed immediately. Thanks.

[SlickAxe]

Think this is at least usefull: http://www.biovalbbb.eu/cms/index.php?page=safety

 

 

[Dragon24]

As mentioned , I'm new to your forum; but I have played airsoft in the usa for over 7yrs and have personally used the Bioval Bio BBB and the new Bio BBBMAX military grade bb. The MAX is a high density bio compound & the field I play at has used/sold these bbs for over 6 months with NO injuries; non more sever than when we use plastic bb's. ie: a blood blister or two.

We play with mandatory minimum engagement distances and strict fps rules. Prior to play all guns are chroned with .25g Bioval Bio BBB after which players are free to use what ever Bio bb weight they want providing they pass the chrono inspection using the provided Bio BBB 0.25g. We also don't allow players with AEG's operating with a FPS of Level 2 or greater inside any CQB buildings in the hopes of eliminating accidents; as described by PunkyPink.

 

Also All Players under 18yrs Old must have an approved full face Mask, players over 18 may wear approved full sealing goggles and a full face wrap, its recommend that a mouth guard be worn by all players 18 and older using a face wrap.

 

 

The Fields FPS Rules: **all rules calculated with .25g bio bbb**

 

Stock (No Color Tie) (350fps or less): Closest engagement distance is a minimum of 5'Ft. Full-auto operation of the airsoftgun is acceptable at a distance of 10'Ft or greater.

 

Level 2 ( Blue Color Tie) (350fps to 400): Closest engagement distance is a minimum of 25'Ft. Only semi-auto operation of the airsoftgun is acceptable at this distance. Full-auto operation of the airsoftgun is acceptable at a distance of 30'Ft or greater.

 

Level 3 (Orange Color Tie) (416fps to 450): Closest engagement distance is a minimum of 50'Ft. Full-auto operation of the airsoftgun is acceptable at a distance of 50'Ft or greater.

 

Level S (Pink Color Tie 460fps to 550): Closest engagement distance is a minimum of 100'Ft. Only guns capable of permanent semi-auto operation will be allowed on the field.

 

 

 

The BBBMAX when used correctly is an amazing bb, its high density, transparent quality and zero air-pockets allows for the most ballisticaly stable bb I have ever tested/used. When used in a stock TM gun my effective rang has drastically increased since I can still visually walk my round on target while not divulging my position to the enemy since the target usually can not see the BBBMAX until the moment of impact. The field I attend actively promotes the fact that the MAX is the only bb that's closing the carbon cycle.

 

I have personally broken bottles with a plastic .23g, .25g & .29g bb and witnessed scopes and cheap non field approved goggles breaking with plastic bbs prior to the introduction of the BBBMAX or our fields new Bio Only Rule. I feel its not right to remove the use of a great quality bb, just because some bad apples tried to damage a car with a Hot gun. I have personally witnessed a stock TM AEG chip a bone in a finger, penetrate the side of a players nose, and chip a players tooth. Also two weeks ago I was shot in the hand, arm, fingers, and chest with a gun firing the BBBMAX at 390fps @ approximately 50Ft, I received some nice blood blisters & no broken bones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the warning label for verbatim : TSD Plastic 1,000rd Bottle BB's:

 

Airsoft guns are not toys. This product is intended for safe airsoft play only. Failure to do so may result in bodily injury, or death.

 

 

 

[trecam]

Hello, i am new here also and i am the one Arnie refers to in his post. I could not resist the BBBMAX discussion.

 

We live in South Switzerland and we play in North Italy. Italy has a 1 Joule Law for all guns. We use the BBBMAX because it is mono-resin and therefore no bubbles and uniform resin density throughout the bb. This makes it the most accurate bb we have ever used.

 

But the coolest thing is that our PTW don't chop anymore. The problem with PTW kits is that very few people know how to build them properly and this causes bb chop. But the MAX is hard as hell and will not be chopped. Anyway if your nozzle breaks or your normal plastic chops that's because the guy who built it did no do the job right.

 

Anyway, we are lucky enough to be able to buy directly at the Bioval factory at a good price and the BBBMAX is our our official team bb.

 

I do not understand this discussion about bb hardness since all the damage we have seen using ANY bb was caused by irresponsible persons using AEGs over 1 joule AEGs.

 

We have had NO INJURIES and NO DAMAGE of any type since we started using the BBBMAX. Furthermore we all use V50 rated Revision Locust goggles that can stop shrapnel and shotgun blasts. BBs will tickle these lenses and bounce off harmlessly.

 

If you do not want to cause damage keep your fps down. It's a no brainer!

 

You guys loaded your M150 (PTW?) with 0.27g bbs and fired them at a windscreen and ... the glass broke. I bet if you fired DIGICONS or other metal core bbs you would get the same result. You guys are soooo Sherlock .... NOT ... LOL!

 

As far as we are concerned this case should never have been posted on Arnie's. Noone plays airsoft at 560fps dude !! And certainly not without full face protection. You Scandinavians must have good insurance and cheap Dentists. In any case it seems totally crazy that you hae 560fps guns on a field!

 

I hope your politicians are not reading Arnies cause i am sure the Police would love to shut you guys down real fast.

[Elliot]

. Noone plays airsoft at 560fps dude !! And certainly not without full face protection.

 

Hi trecam and welcome to the forum.

 

Well weather or not its crazy, obviously some people do play with airsoft guns that are well over 1J, depending on which country they play in, that may or may not be legal but has no baring on the merits of this discussion.

The concerns raised here on this forum and in this thread are legitimate concerns about potential damage or injury from using BBs that are harder than the average BB, and HAVE caused some damage during a skirmish game (See photo.).

I am actually very relived that you have played using the BBBMAX without incident, this would tend to backup the evidence that so long as the guns are running at 1J or less then there is very little or low risk of damage or over penetration with the BBBMAX above or beyond that which we risk with other BBs.

However you stated that you in your games all use highly rated plastic goggles and the BBs just bounce off.

Well not every one in the whole world uses the same goggles. For example a lot of players here in the UK use wire mesh goggles me being one of them, and I would rather like to see or conduct my own tests on those types of goggles with the BBBMAX before I come up against some one with a hot gun and BBBMAXs on the skirmish field.

Elliot.

 

 

[Punkypink]

I just really wonder why people persist in using something for a use it wasn't designed for, that has the potential to cause greater damage as officially stated by the manufacturer, and already has been proven to be more likely to cause damage even if you haven't been "lucky" enough to experience it yet? Just so you can have an advantage over someone else? Isn't that like, a pretty selfish attitude?

[Dragon24]

I use the BBBMAX because: "The BBBMAX when used correctly is an amazing bb, its high density, transparent quality and zero air-pockets allows for the most ballisticaly stable bb I have ever tested/used. When used in a stock Tokyo Marui gun my effective rang has drastically increased since I can still visually walk my round on target while not divulging my position to the enemy since the target usually can not see the BBBMAX until the moment of impact. The field I attend actively promotes the fact that the MAX is the only Bio bb that's closing the carbon cycle." Any thing can be abused if not used correctly; as seen in sport of paintball and the hobby of airsoft. I personal have been hit by the BBBMAX @390fps approximately 50Ft, I received some nice blood blisters & no broken bones.

No USA Insured Airsoft Field allows the use of wire mesh goggles! USA Airsoft Insurance companies have Officially Stated that Wire Mesh goggles are Dangerous… you players in the UK are a little too hardcore with the (wire mesh) face protection…

 

Wire Mesh Face Protection..it just sounds like an oxymoron IDK about you but i was only given two eyes that i want to keep, I'll continue to uses ESS or JT goggles.

 

 

[liquidflorian]

As part of a game operation group, we're more then likely going to have to prohibit these at our events. Especially sense the majority of what we do is CQB and our current field is very close quarters. These may be suitable for use in woodland areas, but considering the manufacturer states these aren't suitable for use against people this may produce a liability issue if we allow these in a game at all.

[Dragon24]

As part of a game operation group, we're more then likely going to have to prohibit these at our events. Especially sense the majority of what we do is CQB and our current field is very close quarters. These may be suitable for use in woodland areas, but considering the manufacturer states these aren't suitable for use against people this may produce a liability issue if we allow these in a game at all.

 

 

The manufacture never stated the BBBMAX is not suitable for use on people. For almost 1yr the BBBMAX has been marketed and advertised all over the world as the best airsoft field bb; due to its high accuracy and the fact that the enemy cant see incoming round. Bioval tells the player to “Please use certified full face protection.” And has informed the community why the bbs are so hard “(1) The EU (EN Standard) and USA (ASTM ) standards and laws upon which they are based prohibit the sale and marketing of bbs that shatter upon impact.

The test parameters are very strict but enforcement is very difficult and as you can imagine very few producers respect this norm. The Bioval BBBMAX is over and above the minimum test parameters needed to achieve certification. “

 

 

 

 

[Punkypink]

"The BBBMax when used correctly..."

 

Since its intended for law enforcement and military use, isn't any useage outside of the manufacturer specified usage considered incorrect use of BBBMaxes?

 

"When used in a stock Tokyo Marui gun my effective rang has drastically increased since I can still visually walk my round on target while not divulging my position to the enemy since the target usually can not see the BBBMAX until the moment of impact."

 

So you are willing to risk a higher chance of potential injury and equipment damage to other people for your own skirmishing advantage?

 

"Any thing can be abused if not used correctly"

 

Correct. Hence the use of BBMaxes in standard non-military/law enforcement skirmishing, is called abuse.

 

"I personal have been hit by the BBBMAX @390fps [/size][/font]approximately 50Ft, I received some nice blood blisters & no broken bones."

 

Where were you hit, in a fleshy area, bony area etc? Any pictures to support that, like my "shot in the forehead from 2 ft" picture? Also, can you make the claim with 100% certainty that in my case, if the other person had used BBBMaxes, my injuries would not have been worse, I would not have faced suffering a potential fracture or bone chip more than normal BBs?

 

"Wire Mesh Face Protection..it just sounds like an oxymoron IDK about you but i was only given two eyes that i want to keep, I'll continue to uses ESS or JT goggles."

 

Yeap you don't know about me indeed. I've only ever used shooting glasses or full seal goggles (Bolle X800 and X500), esp full seal goggles when playing CQB.

 

Please use certified full face protection.” And has informed the community why the bbs are so hard “(1) The EU (EN Standard) and USA (ASTM ) standards and laws upon which they are based prohibit the sale and marketing of bbs that shatter upon impact.

The test parameters are very strict but enforcement is very difficult and as you can imagine very few producers respect this norm. The Bioval BBBMAX is over and above the minimum test parameters needed to achieve certification. “

 

You and many others seem to constantly point out various bits of the Bioval official release but conveniently gloss over this CRUCIAL bit of the release as posted by Marlowe:

 

(2) The BBBMAX was specifically designed for use by Military and Law Enforcement (MILPOL) training centres in the US, Australia and Europe.

IS your site a MILPOL training centre and are the events you use them in all official certified MILPOL training events? If not, you're abusing BBBMaxes. No ifs or buts.

[RSM]

As the 'risk' discussion is going swings and roundabouts, can anyone who has used these answer a question or two for me, when viewed by the person firing what do these BBs look like if they cannot be seen by the person on the receiving end?

[Dragon24]

As the 'risk' discussion is going swings and roundabouts, can anyone who has used these answer a question or two for me, when viewed by the person firing what do these BBs look like if they cannot be seen by the person on the receiving end?

 

 

The BBBMAX bbs look like a flying flicker of light that shines as it fly’s and eliminates the enemy player..lol