Euro Elections are forthcoming

[Delfi]

I wasn't suggesting there wouldn't have been a crash if we had been part of the Euro. I'm suggesting the effect on the British economy would have be lessened.

 

So the EU shouldn't expand because Russia don't want them too? The Russians need to sell us the gas and oil as much as we need to buy it. The states in question wish to join the EU and have to go through a lengthy process to do so. No one's suggesting expansion by force of arms ala the Third Reich.

 

I'm not at all sure that our adoption of the Euro would have lessened the effects at all. It's the nature of our economy (banking, finance, services etc) that caused the problem. Today, to back this up, I heard a report that people are being rather bullish about where we're going and by the end of the year the pound should have stabilised at just sub $1.7 with .75 Euros to the pound. That's pretty much where we were and yet things are still not looking at all good. Unemployment up, interest rates at a record low and no signs of any real economic growth. Exchange rates are just relative indicators.

 

With regard to Russia and EU expansion you really don't need 'force of arms' to cause a problem. The very same problems can be caused by the kind of economic and social expansion to their borders that's currently happening. There's a loss of a buffer zone against a traditional opponent. Take a look at how they're dealing with Ukraine at the moment with regard to fuel. It's a stand off ... do they need our money or do we need their fuel?

[Chimpy]

I'm not at all sure that our adoption of the Euro would have lessened the effects at all. It's the nature of our economy (banking, finance, services etc) that caused the problem. Today, to back this up, I heard a report that people are being rather bullish about where we're going and by the end of the year the pound should have stabilised at just sub $1.7 with .75 Euros to the pound. That's pretty much where we were and yet things are still not looking at all good. Unemployment up, interest rates at a record low and no signs of any real economic growth. Exchange rates are just relative indicators.

 

Sure but exchange rates are only really part of the picture aren't they. Being part of the Euro provides stability that you don't have as a single country bearing in mind that the effects of the credit crunch haven't been uniform across countries. That stability is part of the reason that the Euro is such a popular reserve currency.

 

It's a stand off ... do they need our money or do we need their fuel?

 

Both. Although we could get the fuel elsewhere but with increased costs.

 

It's not like Russia isn't expanding it's sphere of influence either. The general point is that most other countries would rather chummy up with the EU and US rather than Russia due to the perceived fragility of the Russian economy (and I think they have a really good point there) amongst other things. Russia is ###### as former ComBloc countries are moving away from it's sphere of influence.

[Delfi]

Russia is ###### as former ComBloc countries are moving away from it's sphere of influence.

 

Trading in the Euro provides economic inertia and that's not necessarily a good thing.

 

Minerals and stuff you can dig up are a much better bet at the moment for investors ... and hey, guess who has got loads of that and the ability to exploit such natural goodies.

 

Q: Does Russia really need to expand its territorial sphere of influence at the moment?

 

A: No. That's an old model.

 

It strikes me that it's currently consolidating what it has and is strong in terms of its long term exploitation of natural resources. Take a good look at its claims of Arctic territories.

 

 

 

[pjones]

It's not like Russia isn't expanding it's sphere of influence either. The general point is that most other countries would rather chummy up with the EU and US rather than Russia due to the perceived fragility of the Russian economy (and I think they have a really good point there) amongst other things. Russia is ###### as former ComBloc countries are moving away from it's sphere of influence.

 

There you have it. For reasons of national pride, they won't admit that they've ever done anything unpleasant to drive the Poles, Ukranians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc. away. (Katyn Massacre? Nazi propaganda! The Soviet Union was good! ) Therefore they blame this on a western conspiracy that uses local collaborators (who they accuse of being Nazis ) to try to hurt Russia.

[Carrion]

in defence of the BNP and other marginal politcal views

 

WHY shouldent people vote for them? in a democratic country i have the legal right to vote HOW I WISH rgardless of what other may want. if it means people who question the satus quo as it is, want change on items and are willing to act in a LEGAL and DEMOCRATIC manner to affect those changes who the HELL are you to say they have NO right to be voted for?

 

the socialsit workers lot spend alot of tiem at meetings (and i know i joined them once) bragging about what laws they break and who they attack at "demonstrations" instead of trying to get into parliament to affect the legal changes they want in the manner this countrys laws demand i shall.

in short they are thugs and criminals who disguise there actions under a thin viel of politcal activity .

 

there are alot of people who do feel marginalised in the UK as a result of the blank refusal to discuss things like uncontrolled immigration, the EU referendum, and the effect of things on communities all int he name of politicaly correct. and that pushes them away from hte central parties who are seen to ignore them and into those who whilst they may not like all the polices are atleast willing to entertain dicussion about them

 

im not saying its right to want to hurt someone based on there skin colour or race/religion but when have anyone had the say on the imigration?

 

 

when can i say in a public, democratic forum I do not like the way we cant controll out boarders, the way that most of the "new" jobs are taken my imigrants over UK born citizens and even worse when UK jobs arnt advertised in the UK anymore for us to take even if we wanted the,

when can i have my say on things such as that and not be branded a racist? just a concerned citizen who isnt given all the facts by the government or the media, who doesnt like the ghettoes he sees in the city he lives in, for all groups, asian, black, jewish, white, chinese.

 

i belive in proportional representaton where ANY party which gains above 1%of the votes gets 1% if the representation in the parliament so noones views are ignored or steamrollered over without due discussion

 

 

[Xaccers]

in defence of the BNP

 

WHY shouldent people vote for them?

 

One would hope that people in general would have the intelligence not to, especially as their record in authority has been less than satifactory (voting against election promises, resigning because being a councillor was "too complicated", caught smearing excrement on someone's door), unfortunately that isn't actually the case.

Instead people find it easier to believe the lies and propaganda spouted by such groups rather than seeking out the information for themselves (companies not being allowed to employ British workers, foreigners taking jobs that Brits are willing to do simply because they're foreign, Muslims attempting to increase Muslim numbers by raping indigenous caucasians), and turn a blind eye to their racist and un-British policies.

 

However, this is Britain, and if someone is willing to risk their deposit, then they are eligable to be voted for.

As for the vote, it's secret, if someone is willing to make it public, then they must understand that people are going to disagree with them (even BNP voters should be able to grasp that).

[GuzziHero]

My reason for not voting BNP (and I did a couple of times, to my shame) is because I saw a bunch of them giving nazi salutes by a cenotaph...

[Carrion]

One would hope that people in general would have the intelligence not to, especially as their record in authority has been less than satifactory (voting against election promises, resigning because being a councillor was "too complicated", caught smearing excrement on someone's door), unfortunately that isn't actually the case.

Instead people find it easier to believe the lies and propaganda spouted by such groups rather than seeking out the information for themselves (companies not being allowed to employ British workers, foreigners taking jobs that Brits are willing to do simply because they're foreign, Muslims attempting to increase Muslim numbers by raping indigenous caucasians), and turn a blind eye to their racist and un-British policies.

 

However, this is Britain, and if someone is willing to risk their deposit, then they are eligable to be voted for.

As for the vote, it's secret, if someone is willing to make it public, then they must understand that people are going to disagree with them (even BNP voters should be able to grasp that).

 

 

and this after new labours famouse. WE WILL NOT INTRODUCE TUITION FEES (and then what happened)

 

and WE WILL HAVE A REFERENDUM ON THE EU CONSITUTION (and hve we bugger)

 

and have you been a counciler i havnt so i dont know whats entailed? maybe it is a complicated job that they guy admited to it being beyond him which as far as I am concerned is a nice dose of honesty in the UK. someone saying no i cant do this properly and stepping aside. .

 

im not condoning there racist views, far from it. but i will back to the hilt there right to exist as a political party and the right to stand in elections as laid down by UK law.

 

 

 

also dont snip the end off the sentace ad it carrys on with and other marginal political views. how does it go. first they came for the gays then the jews and noone spoke up for them.

then noone spoke up for me cause there wasnt anyone else left

 

thats what is slowly happening with the minority groups who are being told there views arent wanted despite legal support to the countrary

 

 

[Xaccers]

and have you been a counciler i havnt so i dont know whats entailed? maybe it is a complicated job that they guy admited to it being beyond him which as far as I am concerned is a nice dose of honesty in the UK. someone saying no i cant do this properly and stepping aside. .

 

"I'm sorry I went for this job but had no idea what it entailed because I didn't think a bit of research would be useful"

 

 

thats what is slowly happening with the minority groups who are being told there views arent wanted despite legal support to the countrary

 

That's the great thing about this country, we can hold opinions on anything we fancy.

Surely you're not denying people's right to say they don't think a political party and it's views aren't wanted?

 

[Carrion]

a counciler is a public servant not a job. he goes for it to help his local people not for his own work. how many councils in the uk are stangating under old, equely incompetant idiots? i know for a fact torbay council is.

 

 

 

also not to the extent where they are deamonised and subjigated under masses of counter claims.

 

and its membership becomes a sackable offence. in law thats illegal yet its ignored for the BNP. you CANT discriminate based on someone political views in employment yet this is what has happened. even when they supported there party not in uniform and was the result of a "leaked" document. a highly spuriouse argument for sacking in my mind at best.

 

ll grant your better than most liberals. your not spluttering and just shouting racisme or misquoting aspects from the daily hatemail. your quoting facts and accepting there right to exist. good show.

 

 

 

so by the logical extension of what you said at the end the new labour government which went to war shouldnt have because we in the UK were as a majaorety against it because we didnt support the partys political views.

 

[Xaccers]

a counciler is a public servant not a job. he goes for it to help his local people not for his own work. how many councils in the uk are stangating under old, equely incompetant idiots? i know for a fact torbay council is.

 

Ok, "I'm sorry I went for this role as a public servant but had no idea what it entailed because I didn't think a bit of research would be useful"

 

also not to the extent where they are deamonised and subjigated under masses of counter claims.

 

We're not allowed to tell people about the negative points of the BNP? Why? Incase we hurt their feelings?

People view the BNP and their policies as an affront to Brittishness, and a threat to decency.

Just as with their supporters however, their detractors can be just as ignorant.

 

and its membership becomes a sackable offence. in law thats illegal yet its ignored for the BNP. you CANT discriminate based on someone political views in employment yet this is what has happened. even when they supported there party not in uniform and was the result of a "leaked" document. a highly spuriouse argument for sacking in my mind at best.

 

They're more than able, just like any other citizen, to use the law and challenge any discrimination.

Of course under the Equiality Bill belief only covers religious or philosophical belief, or lack of, and not political beliefs, so they may have a problem.

 

ll grant your better than most liberals. your not spluttering and just shouting racisme or misquoting aspects from the daily hatemail. your quoting facts and accepting there right to exist. good show.

 

Thank you. Although I wouldn't call myself a liberal.

There really is no need to start frothing at the mouth about the BNP, there's too much genuine information showing how wrong their policies are, and how bad they would be for the nation should they ever get into a position of power.

 

so by the logical extension of what you said at the end the new labour government which went to war shouldnt have because we in the UK were as a majaorety against it because we didnt support the partys political views.

 

I'm not sure what you mean or how this relates to peoples right to hold opinions?

[pjones]

i belive in proportional representaton where ANY party which gains above 1%of the votes gets 1% if the representation in the parliament so noones views are ignored or steamrollered over without due discussion

 

So you want a situation like Israel where tiny radical parties with only one or two MP's can exert disproportionate influence through their ability to make or break coalitions?

[Carrion]

yes if it ment everyone had there views taken into account. you say they can break or make a deal and that gives them more power but it means they have to support mainstream groups instead of just acting on there own (like new labour in the UK can do with its majority) so they have less power other than to act to spprt in the hope of future help

 

 

it relates to the right for people to hold an opinion on an issue which if it is so stronmgly felt that that XYZ is evil/bad/ wrong it should be changed imediatly.

 

no its amazing the people who go off on one as soon as i support the right to freedom of expression of a political party but they dont realise they become what they hate, a bunch of intolerant fools

 

right to political expression is a human right. not an equality issue although i belvie the right to have your political views is the same as the person next to you and you should not be prevented in any way from holding them including economic strong arming .

 

you can say negative things about them but they must also be allowed to express there views and manefestos in an environment which allows them to condut there action freely and without censorship. how many BNP political broadcasts have you seen? and ive seen other minoity partys broadcast in primetime yet it TV is deviod of any broadcasts for them, (on a side note the socialist labour party one is just as xenophobic as the BNP are with jobs from british people, a clamping of imigration and yet im not seeing any negative comments made about them)

 

how many jobs have you done where you meet the qualifications, done reserce and yet when you get into it it becomes a different kettle of fish with a totaly different standard of work required ? ive done several where the comapny wants more than there pound of flesh for the job they want you body and soul and if you cant or wont deiver your not to scratch yet they never mention unpaid cumpolsory overtime, minimal training and a generaly poor company attitute in the description. atleast he had the balls to say he wasnt up to par,. how many bosses have you seen who got where they are through flukes and are totaly unprepared for the actual realities of the job but wont admit it? realy have a think about it. how many politicians are actualy trained in running a country?

[pjones]

yes if it ment everyone had there views taken into account. you say they can break or make a deal and that gives them more power but it means they have to support mainstream groups instead of just acting on there own (like new labour in the UK can do with its majority) so they have less power other than to act to spprt in the hope of future help

 

 

it relates to the right for people to hold an opinion on an issue which if it is so stronmgly felt that that XYZ is evil/bad/ wrong it should be changed imediatly.

 

Yes, but that has to be balanced against the rights of others to have their voices heard. In places where this is the norm, such as Italy and Israel, the political situation is quite unstable in the worst way.

 

You seem to put a lot of emphasis on people having their views taken into account, so what do you say to the Israelis who voted for Kadima and made it the largest party in the Knesset, but because Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu made a deal they are now the opposition? As I've pointed out, the Knesset is based on a system similar if not identical to the one you suggest and its weaknesses are apparent.

 

Large parties tend to moderate the extremists within them by forcing them to compromise with the mainstream. Your proposed system does the opposite by rewarding parties who compromise the views of a majority by making a deal with extremists. It's hardly democratic.

[Carrion]

sorry ill say this now and frankly sod anyone who doent like it.

 

the isreli GOVERNMENT is all extremeist. they dont want pece, they are continuing to unsettle the middle east instead of trying to sort things out

 

the isreli people are as a rule tollerant, hardworking folks who just want to raise familiys and have a normal life.

and a fujll 3rd of the county supports peace with palestine. yet hte government doesnt let it.

 

your also saying that because 2 partys oleterily decide to join together its wrong? how is this? it means they represent the MAJORETY of the people and act in there interests. so SHAZAM democracy in action. the 2 partys decided that they cna cooperate and there policis arnt mutualy exsclusive so they can do the right thing.

[Xaccers]

how many BNP political broadcasts have you seen? and ive seen other minoity partys broadcast in primetime yet it TV is deviod of any broadcasts for them,

 

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Because you haven't seen the BNP broadcasts you assume there have been none and therefore they're being cesored, rather than actually investigate and find that there have been BNP broadcasts.

 

[Pilko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j80o8BBQpU4 - the wonders of YouTube bring you the face of Nick Griffin

[Moriquende]

After watching it I can't help but feel that that vid is the 21st century equivalent to Adolf Hitler's speeches, but with added suger coating on top.

[Xaccers]

The thing is, the EU Parliement is pretty powerless, it's the EU commission that creates new legislation, and we have no say over commissioners.

[Chimpy]

Carrion - You can vote for whoever you want but be warned if you go about supporting the BNP you are supporting a bunch of racists with extreme political views about the racial supremacy of white people and as such you will probably been seen as a racist yourself. This is a party that declared that Black and Asian British people weren't British only a short while ago!

 

Here's Nick Griffin speaking in 2000 at a conference of racists in the US including David Duke a former Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. In the video he describes how he is modernising the BNP by making it more populist and playing down the white nationalism.

 

 

The BNP offers simplistic solutions to complex problems and is actually hiding their real political views. Doesn't sound like a great election choice to me!

 

No one is saying the BNP shouldn't be allowed to exist, that would be undemocratic. This is about making sure their odious views stay marginal and to make sure people are educated about the side of their party they are trying to hide to be electable.

[pjones]

sorry ill say this now and frankly sod anyone who doent like it.

 

the isreli GOVERNMENT is all extremeist. they dont want pece, they are continuing to unsettle the middle east instead of trying to sort things out

 

the isreli people are as a rule tollerant, hardworking folks who just want to raise familiys and have a normal life.

and a fujll 3rd of the county supports peace with palestine. yet hte government doesnt let it.

 

your also saying that because 2 partys oleterily decide to join together its wrong? how is this? it means they represent the MAJORETY of the people and act in there interests. so SHAZAM democracy in action. the 2 partys decided that they cna cooperate and there policis arnt mutualy exsclusive so they can do the right thing.

 

Isn't the problem that they are settling in places others don't want them?

 

So you're saying that while the Israeli people are good their government is bad? Therefore there's a problem in translating the will of the people into parliamentary action. As Israel uses a proportional representation system similar to the kind you propose, wouldn't this be an argument against what you're proposing?

[Carrion]

xaccers. im off work sick so i havnt got much to do with my tiem other that watch TV and i watch it all day and i always try to catch the broadcasts and ive not seen any untill today with a 20 second microburst on the politics show when all partys had the same.

 

and i dont support the BNP, i wont vote for them.

i DO support there right to be treated as a poltical equel and its members treated the same as all other political party members UNTILL the time they do something wrong.

i Do support the right of its members to be allowed to put forward a political viewpoint on the UK and stand for democratic election.

 

i get all crawley as soon as people start saying partys should be banned for whatever reason. as thats the start of political censorship and sooner or later it becomes a one party race.

 

 

i dont consider labour members to be self serving, fraudsters unless they have been convivted of such so why are BNP votors automaticaly racist scumbags who need to be killed to death? .

 

as to teh isreali government. they are building new settlments in teh west bank. which they said they wouldent do thus escalating the tensions. do the people want that i doubt it but they dont have controll over whats done. thats not the fault of the system they have but the fault of people in power acting with disregard for wishes (like in the UK over the invasion of iraq and afghanistan)

[pjones]

as to teh isreali government. they are building new settlments in teh west bank. which they said they wouldent do thus escalating the tensions. do the people want that i doubt it but they dont have controll over whats done. thats not the fault of the system they have but the fault of people in power acting with disregard for wishes (like in the UK over the invasion of iraq and afghanistan)

 

Of course I know they're building settlements - that's why I highlighted your use of the term "un-settling."

 

So, if the system for electing MK's isn't at fault for the government ignoring the wishes of the people then what is? You seem to be either unwilling or unable to make the connection that your statement that the Israeli government does not reflect the wishes of the people only proves the point that I am making - that a system of proportional representation does a poor job of reflecting the views of a voting population.

 

Or could it be that the Israelis actually do support an aggressive policy like that pursued by Netenyahu and that's why they support parties like Likud or others further to the right, which would make you correct on the original issue but incorrect in terms of your (unsupported) assertion of the nature of Israeli public opinion?

[Chimpy]

i get all crawley as soon as people start saying partys should be banned for whatever reason. as thats the start of political censorship and sooner or later it becomes a one party race.

 

Who said the BNP should be banned? I missed that part!

[Carrion]

not YOU ffs on anyone here.

 

there are people who have campaigned to get them"shutdown" beliving thats a democratic thing to do. also the calls in the press to ban them.

 

its totaly undemocratic.