Face Palm of the day, “Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K.”

[pjones]

We could seriously reduce the cost of health care with some tort reform. But hey that is ridiculous and according to the big O completely off the table.

 

He's a lawyer/law professor. It wouldn't do to anger all those potential donors.

[Stealthbomber]

Any evidence to back that up? Last time I checked the most severe casualty received priority treatment.

I suspect this happens because most people with a mild disorder will go to their doctor and get put on a waiting list for however long.

Conversely, an illegal immigrant who has no doctor will receive no treatment until they present themselves to their locate A&E where they will be treated immediately.

 

Mt father was on a waiting list for a knee operation for nearly 3 years.

Eventually, during work, his leg gave way (ironically enough, due to the injured knee) and he fell underneath a tractor as he was in the process of repairing the handbrake.

The tractor ran over his leg, dislocated his knee and, as a result, he got the operation he needed the following day.

 

As I've said before, I have worked with Russian and Polish people who ALWAYS take advantage of the British NHS during their stays in the UK.

Go to a Polish doctor with Arthritis or Rheumatism and they'll tell you you're getting old.

Go to a Brit' A&E department claiming that you have a "pain in your arms" and you'll have your Arthritis diagnosed and a treatment organised.

Once they know what medicine they need they can go back home and buy it on the Black Market and self-medicate.

 

I'm not going to try and guess how a persons immigration status fits into all this but I know some people "queue jump" the NHS by going to A&E with their problems and I know foreigners make use of A&E to obtain immediate treatment.

 

Immigrants of any kind still contribute through VAT. While this isn't a huge sum, its more than we'd be receiving if they weren't in the country.

That's kinda weak.

Aside from anything, I doubt many illegal immigrants are out buying Plasma TVs or BMWs.

Note that food is often VAT-free.

 

Does this opinion apply to British nationals who aren't contributing to the system either? or just the no-good foreigners? I'd personally take an illegal immagrant whos willing to do a manual labour job and works thier *albatross* off to survive, over lazy chav scum who feel its thier "right" to scrounge.

Me too.

 

I'd also consider that every foreigner who's prepared to do a job for £5 an hour might be keeping a Brit who needs £8 an hour in order to pay his rent/mortgage, council tax and utility bills out of a job.

 

Cheap labour doesn't end recessions. Full employment does.

 

You're never going to improve the domestic employment situation while foreign labour will work cheaper and then take most of that money out of our economy anyway.

[rws591]

He's a lawyer/law professor. It wouldn't do to anger all those potential donors.

 

Oh I know, when doctors aren't making good money any more who will the trial lawyers move onto next?

[pjones]

Me too.

 

I'd also consider that every foreigner who's prepared to do a job for £5 an hour might be keeping a Brit who needs £8 an hour in order to pay his rent/mortgage, council tax and utility bills out of a job.

 

Cheap labour doesn't end recessions. Full employment does.

 

You're never going to improve the domestic employment situation while foreign labour will work cheaper and then take most of that money out of our economy anyway.

 

But if someone can survive in the UK on £5 an hour then doesn't that mean that people don't really need £8 an hour to survive? I mean, it's not like these immigrants do a daily commute back to Poland or somewhere else with a lower cost of living - they're living in the UK just like the British worker, but managing to do it on £3 less. So my question is what does the British worker "need" that costs that extra £3 that the Pole or whoever doesn't?

[rws591]

Good point and you have to question the minimum wages in the US too, the raising of which in a recession is ludicrous. If un undocumentado makes 4 dollars an hour, yet still sends a good chunk of money home to his family in Mexico, how can it really be said that a person needs 7.25 to live? I guess what you have to bring into account is that a citizen more than likely has a family he has to support, but still a good point you have raised.

[-Angel-]

Its all a matter of standards & perspective. People expect to live as they have been brought up or better. The lower that bar is set, the cheaper the cost of living is.

[Stealthbomber]

But if someone can survive in the UK on £5 an hour then doesn't that mean that people don't really need £8 an hour to survive? I mean, it's not like these immigrants do a daily commute back to Poland or somewhere else with a lower cost of living - they're living in the UK just like the British worker, but managing to do it on £3 less. So my question is what does the British worker "need" that costs that extra £3 that the Pole or whoever doesn't?

The brit has to pay a British mortgage and pay british taxes and spend money on things at a british rate.

A foreign worker can work here (living in shared or company accomodation) and send most of their wages home where the cost of living is lower.

[Xaccers]

The brit has to pay a British mortgage and pay british taxes and spend money on things at a british rate.

A foreign worker can work here (living in shared or company accomodation) and send most of their wages home where the cost of living is lower.

 

That argument always amuses me.

Polish workers pay british taxes if they work here.

 

Last time I checked, there was no law stating brits have to have a mortgage, similarly, I don't recall one saying brits can't live in shared or company accomodation.

Thousands of brits live in shared accomodation, often with their parents so that they can have the things they want, like a nice car, or a holiday every year.

Similarly, thousands of brits have a mortgage and other debts/living costs (like new cars which are expensive to maintain) but moan that other people who are willing to not have so many "nice things" or holidays *somehow* can afford to live on lower wages.

 

 

Incidently, go to A&E with a non-emergency and you get to wait around the longest to finally be told that you need to go to a GP, although you may be given some mild medication such as pain killers or antibiotics depending on what's suitable.

If a foriegner turned up at A&E saying they had water on the knee and it was painful, you really think they'll be rushed into the OR? No of course not, they'll be given painkillers and told to visit their GP.

 

Now if they need an emergency operation on part of the body which needs a non-emergency operation (such as the case with your father) then of course both will be done at the same time. How ridiculous to expect otherwise. It saves time, and costs, and services the patient quicker. I fail to see how that could be considered a bad policy. I seriously doubt foreigners needing non-emergency operations deliberately throw themselves under buses hoping to injure that part to get their operation done at A&E.

[Stealthbomber]

That argument always amuses me.

Polish workers pay british taxes if they work here.

 

Last time I checked, there was no law stating brits have to have a mortgage, similarly, I don't recall one saying brits can't live in shared or company accomodation.

Thousands of brits live in shared accomodation, often with their parents so that they can have the things they want, like a nice car, or a holiday every year.

Similarly, thousands of brits have a mortgage and other debts/living costs (like new cars which are expensive to maintain) but moan that other people who are willing to not have so many "nice things" or holidays *somehow* can afford to live on lower wages.

Sorry but you're missing so much here that I just don't know where to begin.

 

A person living in Poland or Russia can buy a house and car and send their kids to school MUCH cheaper than a person in the UK.

They can then come to the UK, share accomodation with half a dozen other people, work for half the wages that a Brit can afford to accept (which is still hugely more than you'd earn in Poland) and then send most of their money home.

 

A person living in Britain can operate exactly the same way and save up a bundle of money but they CANNOT maintain a family in the same way that a person who's family live in a country with a cheaper cost of living can.

 

I'm really surprised people can't grasp this.

[Xaccers]

Sorry but you're missing so much here that I just don't know where to begin.

 

A person living in Poland or Russia can buy a house and car and send their kids to school MUCH cheaper than a person in the UK.

They can then come to the UK, share accomodation with half a dozen other people, work for half the wages that a Brit can afford to accept (which is still hugely more than you'd earn in Poland) and then send most of their money home.

 

A person living in Britain can operate exactly the same way and save up a bundle of money but they CANNOT maintain a family in the same way that a person who's family live in a country with a cheaper cost of living can.

 

I'm really surprised people can't grasp this.

 

 

Yes they can, they just have their family live in Poland. It's not difficult, especially with the freedom to move around Europe that we now have.

What's more, you can live in shared accomodation, and earn a heck of a lot more than immigrants, and give your family a much better way of life than most Polish workers can.

[Stealthbomber]

Yes they can, they just have their family live in Poland. It's not difficult, especially with the freedom to move around Europe that we now have.

[Kyrian_Zenda]

Last time I checked, there was no law stating brits have to have a mortgage, similarly, I don't recall one saying brits can't live in shared or company accomodation.

Thousands of brits live in shared accomodation, often with their parents so that they can have the things they want, like a nice car, or a holiday every year.

Similarly, thousands of brits have a mortgage and other debts/living costs (like new cars which are expensive to maintain) but moan that other people who are willing to not have so many "nice things" or holidays *somehow* can afford to live on lower wages.

Whilst I'll agree that the expected standard of living for a British person would be higher than someone from Poland, I don't agree that this is always the case. I live with my parents at the moment, but I'm only doing so because I simply cannot afford to move out. I don't have a car, but I do have a TV, XBox 360, laptop and some airsoft gear which can be pretty expensive, but in the past 6 months, the most expensive thing I've bought was a game for £40. Why? Because I couldn't afford it. I also don't agree with your car argument. My brother has a car (bit of a crappy one, but he still has it), and he still lives here too, though he's 18, few years younger than me. Having a car can give you a taste of the freedom that living on your own/with a partner can give you, and is a big step towards that, plus it can help immeasurably with getting yourself around to get jobs, look for a place and the move itself when you do eventually move out. So that argument about the car...just doesn't fly.

 

Yes they can, they just have their family live in Poland. It's not difficult, especially with the freedom to move around Europe that we now have.

What's more, you can live in shared accomodation, and earn a heck of a lot more than immigrants, and give your family a much better way of life than most Polish workers can.

I'm sorry, what? You're advocating moving to a completely different country, where they speak a completely different language, have a completely different culture, where the laws can be very different, as well as the way they do things, just because you think you can reduce how much it costs to live? Were you drunk when you posted that? Seriously. There may be relative freedom of movement between the countries of the EU, but that doesn't mean it's always the best idea to shoot off to a different country for so paltry a reason. Not only is it a bad idea, for the reasons I said above, but if someone is struggling to live on their wage over here, how the hell do you expect them to afford to be able to move? Getting their stuff over there, getting their family over there, getting visas, travel costs, getting a place there, not to mention actually having to live there for a bit before you can get yourself a job...

 

Please ensure brain is engaged before operating mouth/fingers.

[Basho]

Wow, this has gone off post from where I started, but fair enough I suppose.

 

I, personally, am a socialist. Why? Because I believe very strongly in egalitarianism. I don't believe that the individual is more important than society, I believe in a balance between the two.

 

I invite everyone spouting a ideology here to take the following test: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and then come back here and show where they landed.

 

This is important as the standard lines between right and left are normally drawn on financial matters. Actual social norms can be quite different, and in this test are drawn top to bottom; authoritarian to anarchist. It is completely anonymous.

 

The reason this will help is that the NHS is considered in two minds.

 

The Business Mind is that part which demands payment.

The Social Mind is that part which will do something for free.

 

To explain by way of example. Scientists asked two groups of lawyers to help homeless people.

 

The first group were offered 1/5th of their normal rate. They all said no.

The second group were asked to work for free. They all said yes.

 

This is because the first group were asked to judge the question against their earnings, against their business part of their mind, and the second group were asked from the point of view of charity; their social mind. (*See endnote)

 

As regards the NHS, my mind is social. I believe in helping others at the cost to myself, because they will do the same for me. I feel this for all my countrymen. I feel this regardless of their 'class', colour, religion or creed. If you are my brother citizen, I will help with your medical burdens.

 

As regards my business mind. I worked in the city, in the square mile. I demand a wage equal with my abilities and my judgement of my own self worth.

 

This means that while I am incredibly liberal, and so south of middle on the chart, I am near the middle regarding left and right economies.

 

Try the test for yourself.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Basho

 

 

(*Note, this example is from the book of the site: http://www.predictablyirrational.com/

[Kyrian_Zenda]

I invite everyone spouting a ideology here to take the following test: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and then come back here and show where they landed.

[Kraut]

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...\

[Stealthbomber]

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...\

Saved me the effort.

[Cyber Soldier]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/p...0&soc=-5.08

That and militant. Go me.

[rws591]

Near Friedman eh?

[pjones]

I'm sorry, what? You're advocating moving to a completely different country, where they speak a completely different language, have a completely different culture, where the laws can be very different, as well as the way they do things, just because you think you can reduce how much it costs to live? Were you drunk when you posted that? Seriously. There may be relative freedom of movement between the countries of the EU, but that doesn't mean it's always the best idea to shoot off to a different country for so paltry a reason. Not only is it a bad idea, for the reasons I said above, but if someone is struggling to live on their wage over here, how the hell do you expect them to afford to be able to move? Getting their stuff over there, getting their family over there, getting visas, travel costs, getting a place there, not to mention actually having to live there for a bit before you can get yourself a job...

 

Please ensure brain is engaged before operating mouth/fingers.

 

The Poles apparently have no problem doing it. It seems that the anti-immigration sentiment in the UK is similar to that in the US - "How dare these immigrants be more adaptable and willing to work harder for less than us!"

[rws591]

The Poles apparently have no problem doing it. It seems that the anti-immigration sentiment in the UK is similar to that in the US - "How dare these immigrants be more adaptable and willing to work harder for less than us!"

 

I have no problems with los undocumentados, the majority of them are great people and extremely hard workers. I do have a problem with the fact that the majority of their money is not spent in the US, but sent back to their home country, thus not reinvested into the US' economy. I also have a problem with them coming here illegally, I wish our congress would pass some way for them to get here legally more easily and stay under the status of a worker. I also wish they would make our borders less penetrable, but for some reason they have no intentions of doing either.

[Xaccers]

Whilst I'll agree that the expected standard of living for a British person would be higher than someone from Poland, I don't agree that this is always the case. I live with my parents at the moment, but I'm only doing so because I simply cannot afford to move out. I don't have a car, but I do have a TV, XBox 360, laptop and some airsoft gear which can be pretty expensive, but in the past 6 months, the most expensive thing I've bought was a game for £40. Why? Because I couldn't afford it. I also don't agree with your car argument. My brother has a car (bit of a crappy one, but he still has it), and he still lives here too, though he's 18, few years younger than me. Having a car can give you a taste of the freedom that living on your own/with a partner can give you, and is a big step towards that, plus it can help immeasurably with getting yourself around to get jobs, look for a place and the move itself when you do eventually move out. So that argument about the car...just doesn't fly.

 

So just to be clear, you're saying that you and your brother are representative of all the thousands of people who live in shared accomodation or with their parents? Really?

 

I'm sorry, what? You're advocating moving to a completely different country, where they speak a completely different language, have a completely different culture, where the laws can be very different, as well as the way they do things, just because you think you can reduce how much it costs to live? Were you drunk when you posted that? Seriously. There may be relative freedom of movement between the countries of the EU, but that doesn't mean it's always the best idea to shoot off to a different country for so paltry a reason. Not only is it a bad idea, for the reasons I said above, but if someone is struggling to live on their wage over here, how the hell do you expect them to afford to be able to move? Getting their stuff over there, getting their family over there, getting visas, travel costs, getting a place there, not to mention actually having to live there for a bit before you can get yourself a job...

 

As has been said, many Poles and other "Eastern Europeans" manage to move over here, with their families as well.

My family for instance moved to Saudi Arabia in the early 80s. Now you may not know much about Saudi Arabia, so let me inform you, the culture compared with Hampshire is rather different in many ways, while similar in others. Some of their laws are different too. The language too is different. However, as we are human beings with brains, we are able to adapt, it's quite a handy skill.

Unlike Poland however, a visa is required, which is one of the reasons I've not been back. What's that? You thought Brits needed visas to go to Poland?

So, if you want the lifestyle that Poles can enjoy, then you know what you need to do.

If you don't want that lifestyle, or want it but can't be bothered to get it, then why complain?

 

 

Please ensure brain is engaged before operating mouth/fingers.

 

Perhaps it would be better if you were to take your own advice? You appear to be in greater need of it.

[Kyrian_Zenda]

The Poles apparently have no problem doing it. It seems that the anti-immigration sentiment in the UK is similar to that in the US - "How dare these immigrants be more adaptable and willing to work harder for less than us!"

The majority aren't moving their families over here, which was the point I was making...

 

So just to be clear, you're saying that you and your brother are representative of all the thousands of people who live in shared accomodation or with their parents? Really?

Well I could've given you examples of all my friends that are in similar situations, including those that left home to go to university but then ended up moving back with their parents after graduating instead of getting their own place, and those that found that cars gave them a lot more freedom, which really helped with eventually getting jobs etc, but I decided to use my brother and I as more immediate examples.

 

As has been said, many Poles and other "Eastern Europeans" manage to move over here, with their families as well.

My family for instance moved to Saudi Arabia in the early 80s. Now you may not know much about Saudi Arabia, so let me inform you, the culture compared with Hampshire is rather different in many ways, while similar in others. Some of their laws are different too. The language too is different. However, as we are human beings with brains, we are able to adapt, it's quite a handy skill.

Unlike Poland however, a visa is required, which is one of the reasons I've not been back. What's that? You thought Brits needed visas to go to Poland?

So, if you want the lifestyle that Poles can enjoy, then you know what you need to do.

If you don't want that lifestyle, or want it but can't be bothered to get it, then why complain?

How much did it cost your family to move over there? Did you move over there to get you and your family a better standard of living, ie. from poverty to lower-class? Were you forced to in order to alleviate some of the problems you were having in your home country? I somehow doubt you moved there for the same reasons the Poles are coming over here, and, incidentally, it's been found that a lot of the Poles that came over here for jobs were actually going back home after earning and saving tons of cash, so it loops back to the argument that they don't contribute to the economy.

 

Also, the comment about the visas, I meant those as a more general statement, ie. moving to any country that isn't your own. Plus, I have no desire to move to any other country anyway, so my knowledge on visas begins and ends on the few I've had to obtain, not ones I have no intention of getting.

 

Perhaps it would be better if you were to take your own advice? You appear to be in greater need of it.

Um...no. Your arguments still don't stand up to much scrutiny, and don't particularly apply. They're the ones coming over here, not the other way around, and to try and reverse it doesn't work, because we wouldn't have the same reasons as them.

[snowman]

Seems like it's the old "I don't want to pay any more Tax for anything" argument that will see the Tories get back in at the next election and decimate Public Services the way they did British 'Industry' back in the 80s.

 

Remember when it was GOOD to think that simply moving money around and jacking the value of companies through the roof artificially was a valid thing to base a country's economy one? Well, that was Tory thinking and that's what we have to look forward to.

 

Sure it's been little better under the recent Labour government, but that's because Blair was basically a Tory in drag (and to be fair the country was so blinded by Banker's bonuses that they believed, like North Sea oil, it would last forever!).

 

Of course no one in America wants public health insurance, it will cost them money!

 

Cheers.

[Stealthbomber]

The Poles apparently have no problem doing it. It seems that the anti-immigration sentiment in the UK is similar to that in the US - "How dare these immigrants be more adaptable and willing to work harder for less than us!"

really, it's not a question of being prepared to "work harder for less".

 

It's simply a question of being able to earn more in a country like Britain and then (importantly) take the money away so it doesn't actually help our economy.

 

If I grew up in some sh*t-pit country I'm sure I'd rather come to the UK and get a mediocre job for £200 a week rather than staying at home and earning £50 a month for picking turnips.

That IS common sense.

 

It doesn't mean it's healthy for the British economy though.

[Danke]

Well then it would seeme to me that in both the UK and the USA there are some people getting very rich from hiring these legal or ilegal foreign workers.

 

The lower wage they pay means they have lower costs. That would mean they can either undercut their competitors and sell more, or they have a higher profit margin.

 

I'd say folks should start to point their high powered preception at the employers.