Most Reliable GBBR on the Market Now?

[hitmanNo2]

5KU make a 9" barrel.

[bankz5152]

WOC it is then!

[Finbarqs]

from factory without any mods? probably LM4 or KJW. With Mods? everything else

 

I'm getting my inokatsu 2009 internals rebuilt with custom parts (carbon steel, heat treated) to ensure even heavier duty operation.

 

I think the mags, and the inner barrel/hop up becomes the biggest issue of these things... They all suck.

[amateurstuntman]

You did mention a lot of different types in the OP including an MP5 so I feel justified in mentioning the KWA MP9.

 

The sound and ROF out of it are amazing and I have had precisely 2 problems, one of them caused by a knuckle head I leant it to.

It is tiny too.

[uscmCorps]

My vote goes to the KWA LM4 PTR. We've got a couple right now and have been running them pretty hard. Been well impressed with them. More so than my upgraded G&P WOC. Out of the box they've been stellar. And if you don't like the trademarks just mask off that area of the receiver and give it a few quick light coats of flat black paint and you're done.

[hwagan]

You did mention a lot of different types in the OP including an MP5 so I feel justified in mentioning the KWA MP9.

 

The sound and ROF out of it are amazing and I have had precisely 2 problems, one of them caused by a knuckle head I leant it to.

It is tiny too.

 

Pretty sure he's got one Heh.

 

 

While I'm obviously biased towards the WOC due to my own good experiences, I still say that every system has pro's and con's, and in the end it comes down to personal choice... I'd definitely consider a KWA M4, were it not for the fact I've become a mega trademark sucker and I'd have to get some engraved and the like. But then I live in the UK, if I lived in the US, I'd own a real AR and I probably wouldn't be so worried about the markings

[amateurstuntman]

Huh.

 

Didn't read his sig.

 

Well then, don't buy another gun, buy more mags for the MP9.

 

Problem solved, who has another?

 

 

 

I know what you mean, some people just love them, others not so much. I've never really had a problem with the hop, others have.

 

I don't care about my ASG trades, others do.

 

I have 7 mags too, I imagine if you have just 1 that running out of ammo in a second would get irritating.

 

 

Mind you, signs of a new hop on the horizon make it more viable.

[uscmCorps]

I'm as big of a trademark ###### as the next guy (possibly more so). And I have plenty of real ARs that I use with greater fequency than the Airsoft guns I have. I guess for me I look at the LM4 as more of a training tool. It's a great platform for me to supplement my RS training at home or for force on force training. I'm less concerned with the way looks than the way it functions. I just need it to keep working reliably, and my other GBBRs have never been able to do that. The LM4 has (for us).

[bankz5152]

Its not that im the trades would put me off but id rather no trades than a big KWA stamp...

 

I love my MP9 but still need more of a rifle.

 

Got the 10/22 for sniping, KWA MP7 for just awesomness same with the MP9 I love gas guns just need a proper rifle that is as reliable as SMGs and pistols.

 

I do like KWA they do make good SMGs, very good SMGs. Are the rifles just as good?

[uscmCorps]

Like I said, if the trades bother you enough, that's easily fixed with a quick application of spray paint. Once you do that it really isn't noticeable unless you're handling the gun yourself, and you're probably not paying attention to it during games. I painted my the markings on my KWA ATPs which were much more obvious and glaring. I don't notice them at all now.

 

If you're willing to put work and money into a gun, then the G&P WOCs might be for you. I was willing to do that, and a lot of money and experimentation later I still don't have a reliably skirmishable G&P WOC. My teammate still uses his WOC based gun and loves it, but he too spent a lot on getting it to work right. The KWA GBBR was about the same price as a regular G&P WOC but has been good to go right out of the box. For me, that sells it. When I do demos for LE depts and procurement officers for certain units who are interested in seeing what else beyond sims and UTMs are available, I show them the LM4. It's not perfect by any means, but it's one of the better contenders out there.

[bankz5152]

From what youve said usmcCORPS the WOCs sound like the WEs just triple the price.

 

I am after reliability above all else but mainly reliability vs price. E.g a WE will set you back around £200.00 and should last about 10K after that its easily sold on for £150 and a new one bought (which is what I have done before with G39s)

 

What I really don't want (after my wretched VFC MP5 experience) is to drop £600 - £700 on a rifle love the look of but just does'nt work and/or be out ranged by a standard TM pistol.

 

Now Hwagan will you sell me yours!?

 

Usmc what went wrong in yours and what model did you get? Finally what did you have to replace?

 

--Edit--

 

Looked into the G&P WOC further and created a sort of 'shopping list'

 

G&P WOC M4 Carbine V5 (Daniel Defense) - $319.00

G&P 39rd MAGPUL PTS Magazine for WA M4 GBB (Black) x5 - $270.00

Madbull Daniel Defense Omega X Rail (9 Inch / Black) - $105.00

 

 

5KU MK18 Outer Barrel for WA M4 GBB (Black) - $18.99

FALCON 6.03 Precision Inner Barrel for WA M4 GBB (250mm) - $42.00

FALCON Hop Up Rubber for WA M4 GBB (70 degree) - $9.00

G&P WA VLTOR MUR Body - $149.00

 

Total - $1080/£695 (including express shipping)

 

Look good to everyone?

 

I will be selling my WE L85 & WE PDW to fund this so want to be certain! Also the most ive spent on a single airsoft rifle...

 

 

Anything I havnt listed that should be replaced of the start line?

 

 

(just to add im not totally set on the WOC just has best 'talk' so far, feel free to change my mind)

 

 

Whats the general consensus on these -

 

KSC M4A1 Gas Blowback Rifle

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ksc-m4a1-gas-blowback-rifle-with-2-magazine-system7-two.html

[Fox62]

What I really don't want (after my wretched VFC MP5 experience) is to drop £600 - £700 on a rifle love the look of but just does'nt work and/or be out ranged by a standard TM pistol.

 

Exactly. I think it's really stupid to go around talking about reliability when the gun won't hit a thing over 90ft. away.

 

WEs have a lot of after market parts available, and a lot of very good inner options, as well as the possibility of using the awesome VSR buckings available (as opposed to many guns with proprietary bucking designs, or poorly adapted AEG sets). If you've used buckings like a Modify/NineBall/Or even the Falcon one for WE OB guns, you can't have been disappointed with the results (at least 150ft. reliably). I haven't seen similar performance from other (MUCH more expensive) systems out there. I run a WE SCAR, and the only part I've had to replace in terms of the gun not jamming and being reliable is the bolt set for a GunsModify one (which I think is far superior to the RA-TECH one). Even the trigger set will hold up as long as you do proper maintenance to it.

 

To the guys who own WOC's: Have you properly checked your range and precision at such range? I'd like to know how well those guns actually perform, as I don't own one. No doubt they look pretty, I'm just not sure if people actually measure distance accurately and know how well they are shooting, caught up on the externals and recoil.

 

 

Fox.

[Katotaka]

From my experience, the best out-of-the-box GBB rifle is KWA M4, don't need to rely on aftermarket parts to "work", few buddies of mine are using them since when they first hit the market, they seem don't need any maintenance at all, the only downside is magazine availability, they're constantly out of stock.

 

 

 

........... and just FYI, my action-shooting "race" gun is a WE SCAR, it works really well for me, and those gen-2 mags are awesome.

 

The only major parts replacement ( not counting RA-Tech longer tightbore inner / outer barrel set and hop up bucking ) is the trigger / hammer parts after a year of weekly practice.... 10K rounds in semi-auto I guess, the sear worn out and semi-auto became 2 to 3 round bursts, so I dropped in a new set of original WE trigger parts and it works like new again.

 

Oh BTW, I restricted the backward movement of the bolt carrier by adding some buffer, to prevent the hammer rolling on the thin part of the carrier and causing nozzle jam, works like a charm.

[Fox62]

From my experience, the best out-of-the-box GBB rifle is KWA M4, don't need to rely on aftermarket parts to "work", few buddies of mine are using them since when they first hit the market, they seem don't need any maintenance at all, the only downside is magazine availability, they're constantly out of stock.

 

 

 

........... and just FYI, my action-shooting "race" gun is a WE SCAR, it works really well for me, and those gen-2 mags are awesome.

 

The only major parts replacement ( not counting RA-Tech longer tightbore inner / outer barrel set and hop up bucking ) is the trigger / hammer parts after a year of weekly practice.... 10K rounds in semi-auto I guess, the sear worn out and semi-auto became 2 to 3 round bursts, so I dropped in a new set of original WE trigger parts and it works like new again.

 

Oh BTW, I restricted the backward movement of the bolt carrier by adding some buffer, to prevent the hammer rolling on the thin part of the carrier and causing nozzle jam, works like a charm.

 

How is range and consistency/precision on the KWA's?

 

Yeah, I did that fix for a while, but the GunsModify set gives you a longer buffer (that'll solve the issue without adding anything custom), and a bolt that's more realistic (mock pin), locks much better, gives slightly better recoil, and will last forever, as well as the better cocker set.

 

And the Gen2 mags use a similar design to the VN styles ones (the ones I use) right? If so, they must be pretty good.

 

 

Fox.

[hwagan]

I was willing to do that, and a lot of money and experimentation later I still don't have a reliably skirmishable G&P WOC. My teammate still uses his WOC based gun and loves it, but he too spent a lot on getting it to work right.

 

USCM, Out of curiosity, when were your team's WOC's purchased? I know some of the earlier models were really quite bad and a lot of people had pretty serious issues with them; But I have to say, in the past 6 months or so I've seen 2 G&P M16VN WOC's, a 607 WoC-X, a Navy Seal bodied WOC-X and obviously my own, which I'm unsure on the original date of - I'm not at all saying they're better than a KWA or anything, I just wonder if G&P have been trying a little harder with the later models; All the above I've had pass through my hands have been good to go out the box other than some hop tuning, which I consider standard practice even on an AEG. Other than the 607 having issues with the stock, and a few leaky G&P mags, they're all running as strong as they were on day one. Not to refute anything you're saying obviously, just that it seems to be G&P do look back at designs and improve on them, they just don't bother telling anyone about it, much like they don't bother telling anyone anything!

 

Bankz; Gimme £1,000 and I'll leave it to you in my will, best I can offer... Actually, no, screw that, it's getting buried with me. Buy a shovel instead

 

Anyhoo - From a WOC owner's perspective, I'd say you're good to go on the shopping list, assuming you end up settling for the WOC. Just a thought, but noone's mentioned FPS reduction yet; Are you planning on going the Npas route or a clipped barrel? Nobody seems to like the clipping the barrel idea, but the 3 WOC's running at my site all have a 5" cut down inner barrel to keep it under 360 on a hot day. No accuracy or range issues suffered, but a lot of people prefer the NPAS method. Also, I've not seen any reports on the Falcon WA bucking, but they seem pretty good on everything else. Maybe add an RA-Tech bucking just to be on the safe side?

 

As for the KSC, Bladerunner seems happy with his other than the hop, although the KWA's have the better leaf spring system.

 

I ended up settling on the WOC partly down to brand loyalty, partly down to Bladerunner's offer to sell me it, and partly down to the fact I'd never be likely to be able to afford a GBBR otherwise, I just happened to get lucky at the right time. I have to say, when I bought it I was immensely sceptical, and genuinely believed I'd end up selling it a week later for a TM SOCOM or SOPMOD. But it literally hasn't had anything done to it other than a clipped barrel, a bit of a hop strip and rebuild, and a (far too regular) cleaning.

 

In the end, every GBBR system has fans and advocates, and it'll always come down to what you decide. For me, it was the fact it was a manufacturer I have a lot of trust in that hasn't let me down yet, the frankly eye-wateringly nice externals, and the fact it goes '*fruitcage* RAAAAAAAAAAARHHHHH KABLAAMO MOTHER*fruitcage*ERS!' every time you pull the trigger.

 

That last bit may be somewhat of an exagerration. (*edit* in the noise it makes I mean. It always goes off when you pull the trigger, it just doesn't necessarily angrily shout at people... I have to do that myself.)

[gijohn2]

Get the 5KU NPAS if you do, works a treat and 5KU anti rotation links and a RA-tech/G&P Magic pin (stops receiver wobble if there is any) and last of all definitely get the RA-tech hop rubber.

 

@Fox62, When i get home ill take a picture of where my gun can shoot too

[hwagan]

To the guys who own WOC's: Have you properly checked your range and precision at such range? I'd like to know how well those guns actually perform, as I don't own one. No doubt they look pretty, I'm just not sure if people actually measure distance accurately and know how well they are shooting, caught up on the externals and recoil.

 

Sorry man, missed that bit!

 

I can make a torso shot at 50 metres and deliver harassing fire to about 60-65 without a problem with no wind on a .3. I'm using a cut down RA-Tech 6.03, RA-Tech rubber, RA-Tech chamber. I'm absolutely obsessive when it comes to tuning the hopup and forcing range out of my guns, because I'm too lazy to use tactics to gain an advantage. Honestly, I make no exagerration when I say it outshoots any AEG I've owned; If I get the opportunity any time soon, I'll put my money where my mouth is with a video, but the regular noobs at Ace Combat look upon it sort of like it's the hammer of Thor, which is nice.

[uscmCorps]

USCM, Out of curiosity, when were your team's WOC's purchased? I know some of the earlier models were really quite bad and a lot of people had pretty serious issues with them

 

Ours were some of the earliest models G&P made. My buddy's GBBR started off as a G&P WOC, but at this point I believe almost every part has been swapped out/upgraded.

 

Regarding the TM SOPMODs, I know they're relatively popular with airsofters, but I would never endorse them as a training tool to LE and MIL. While they have great range and accuracy, the TM SOPMOD type platform is horribly mis-balanced due to the recoil system in the buffer tube, the recoil impulse is completely wrong (it pushes forwards rather than pushes back, and is delayed ... it's just wrong wrong WRONG), lacks a trigger break, etc etc. The list goes on. For someone wanting to use it for enjoyment and doesn't shoot real firearms and thus wouldn't know any better, the TM SOPMOD is fine. For someone that needs a system as a supplemental training tool to their RS shooting, the TM SOPMOD is more likely to cause training scars than be an actual training benefit.

[hwagan]

I noticed there were a lot of issues with the earlier ones in the review thread, using the WA positive pressure parts originally? A lot of that was the reason I was sceptical about picking mine up, but they definitely seem to have improved over the earlier versions.

 

But again, as you say, you've obviously got RS AR's with better than airsoft looks, and I can entirely see the logic between the KWA trades being a benefit rather than an annoyance. I think it's fair to say where owning an R/S counterpart is impossible or impractical, people will always be more concerned with the fine details like trades than somebody such as yourself, who seemingly has a key to to KAC's warehouse (Unashamed jealousy there).

 

As for training, I've always wondered why anybody would use an AEG for training purposes... Compared to the realism a GBBR provides, jams and all, I'd have thought they'd be a far better tool assuming you could find a source of solid, quality Co2 magazines to save the need to keep mags warm or whatever. The closest I've ever got to handling an M4A1 was a deact at the War and Peace show, and whilst I'm not going to compare my WOC to a real steel firearm, it certainly imitates the parts and action to a degree I'm more than happy with as an airsofter. GBBR's seem a little more accepting of abuse as well due to the lack of electronics, I've abused mine a fair bit and it's never complained... Some of the things I've done with it would have killed an AEG a few times over.

[emp3ror86]

My vote is on the KSC/KWA platform.

[bankz5152]

Should have really added a poll ay..

 

Whats been said is very interesting.

 

While the WEs do have a lot of after market parts only some of them have all the parts you really need (M4/SCAR)

 

Ive seen a couple WE rifles be upgraded with RATech steel trigger sets and a standard bolt but the hammer just wore into it and caused damage. Ive also seen alot of WE rifles simply 'stop working' and become impossible to repair regardless of how much cash poured into them.

 

 

I like the idea of a System 7 Rifle as I know it is a good system that works well, however while their hop units are fine for SMGs I reckon in a rifle it would be less useful.

 

 

Hwagan -

So the G&P WOCs are similar to any other GBBRs out there then. Various generations being released just no one knows what Gen they are. What do you think the one im looking at is? One of the most recent ones? Also is it a WOC or a WOC X?

 

 

Also deffinatley going the NPAS route, not just for adjustable FPS but gas consistency

[hwagan]

I'd say you're far more than safe by now, from what I can tell the issues with WOC's seemed to be confined to the original attempts, which I believe used WA parts with G&P externals before G&P started knocking out the whole thing and switching to the negative pressure BBU, which greatly improved them. A friend of mine (Kingdong on these boards) bought that exact model from WGC around a year ago; He picked up an RA-Tech steel trigger group a month or so later, but had no issues with the aluminium parts, just got a good opportunity to pick up a bargain on a 3 round burst kit. Just bear in mind one day, you'll need a steel trigger pack, but once it's installed you won't need to worry about it (Or at least I haven't noticed any wear on mine yet). When it comes to bolt wear, the BCG will suffer wear from the steel bolt catch, but I haven't had to replace a BCG yet, and I've been using 2 primarily and keeping one as a spare (Depending on if I want a chrome bolt or not on the day ).

 

Pretty sure the KWA features the new leaf spring design for the hopup, so that shouldn't be an issue really; I think the KSC's are still fitted with the ball bearing hop though.

[emp3ror86]

Some says that the KSC M4 line has been upgraded to the new hopup. Soon my pal will order one, I really wonder what hopup it will be equipped with.

 

NPAS: if it did something in my KSC, it ruined consistency. With some local tech guys we are in the process of creating a more stable solution to decrease FPS and/or make it adjustable.

[bankz5152]

Ideally id perfer a solid peice that limits FPS to 344. Like the Danerwerkz valves for the MP7 and MP9 though I am right in thinking it uses a different system?

 

I assumed i'd need the steel trigger group but they standard ones should last a fair amount of time though ay?

 

How many rounds has your WOC had through?

[hwagan]

Mine's been steel since day one, and I've lost count... A rough guess I'd say around 30K, including dry cycles. I'll get some pictures up of the lack of wear this evening if I can.

 

I think GIJohn has more knowledge on the aluminium parts than I do, but they'll still last a good few thousand rounds before replacements are required.

 

When it comes to a solid FPS reduction (I don't like the extra moving part of the NPAS either), I just clip the barrel. There seems to a big thing against doing that for some reason, but I can't fathom why - Mine is roughly cut with a hacksaw, and I crowned it with the tip of a K-bar. The end of the barrel looks like it was chewed by an iron dog of some sort, but there's been no negative effect on range and accuracy.