!Thinking of going to gas!

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

I trained with the Royal Marine Commandos before I withdrew due to permanent injury. So I also have not fired a shot in anger.

 

As I've said, it's not comparable to a 5.56 round, and certainly nothing on a 12g shotgun! Although, for you, try the WE SVD, that thing kicks like a mule from what I've heard. For me, the penetration argument has never held weight, in airsoft, a tarpaulin is the thickest of tank armours to any RIF.

 

And you are correct good sir and I concede I misread your post and functional rather than performance. And in that I would argue that modern quality GBBR's are almost on par, albeit with a few caveats (mags in warmers in anything below 5C tends to be needed)

 

Fo me, it's 2 things, the realistic function, my training was with a SA-80 so it's not replicated there, lest I get a WE SA-80 but for me it's just the way it works, mag in, flip catch etc.

 

I'm definitely no master race, I'd say more of aliability for whatever team I'm on

 

But yes, you do get some, but you get some in anything, we all know the masada weilding mall ninja's thinking they're amazing and that they cannot lose because they have a 55rps 349fps Masada with a box mag.

Performance wise, I'd say the closest by far is in fact a boltie. Operation and performance is similar to the real deal, I've only fired a L96 on the range once, but it's all the same as an airsoft, mag in, rack for each round and careful, single aimed shots, the higher power and heavier BB's typically used in bolties make up for the lack of penetration.

 

Sorry to hear about the injury, I always wince when I hear of a career cut short by bad luck, it's such a shame.

I'm 100% agreed that a boltie is the closest in operation, to be honest, my point about the requirement for more shots to penetrate and to make up for the lack of accuracy would be far less of an issue if our FPS limits were higher, being able to use 0.3g BBs at 400 FPS would change that considerably, and I'd be happy using 30rd mags then, I just find that with 90 rounds I end up changing mags roughly as often as I'd be changing real mags, and I don't fire much differently in airsoft, I just tend to fire a three round burst where I'd use semi, if I could have my gearbox fire 3rb and auto I'd do that, and get rid of semi entirely.

 

 

Somehow I knew you were going to get technical with that. Yes, GBBRs do not compare to the recoil of any real firearm, not even a .22LR. But that's just from the actual impulse resulting from the shot. Remember, most airsoft guns fire about 1 Joule which means your shoulder will only receive a maximum of just as much (lessened by the mass of the gun and forward momentum of the AEG piston). On GBBRs, their method of simulating recoil is made through the oscillation of a weighted bolt. It's characteristically different from true recoil in that the impulse is delayed over a longer period of time so what you get is more of a shove than a snap. The end result, however, is the same: the barrel is tilted upwards and the shooter needs to reorient the rifle's sights back on target. Also, how can AEG performance exceed that of a GBB? If I get both platforms to perform at the same power level and use heavier bbs they'll both have equal capacity to punch through light brush with a single shot.

 

edit:

Just to add, finding fault in people in claiming they're part of a "GBB master race" doesn't really hold water when you yourself sound like you're hard selling memberships to a "AEG am teh best gnu" club.

 

As I said, the recoil is nowhere near close, if you're happy with it then all power to you, but it isn't close at all, and for me it's not even strong enough to be worth considering as a feature, unless that SVD WhiteHawksan mentioned is a fierce as he's heard, I've tried other people's GBBs on a few occasions, and I was immediately struck by the fact that the recoil does not affect my sight picture, perhaps that's because I'm used to controlling 5.56 recoil, so it just feels like nothing by comparison, but that's still my experience of it.

As such, it's not a feature to me.

 

If you think I'm advocating some kind of "AEG Master Race" then you really have missed the point, I'm saying that there is literally no reason for GGB users to claim some kind of superiority over those with AEGs, and that the frequently claimed reason (lower mag capacity) is available to anyone who wishes to buy smaller mags.

I'm not saying that GBBs are inferior (although I have doubts about the way users seem to have to baby them, but I'm sure that'll change as they improve) I'm saying that having one does not make you better than everyone else.

Again, I'm sorry if anything other than an overwhelmingly positive and fawning comment about GBBs offends you, but that's your problem, not mine.

[Azubi]

My RA-Tech'd L85 feels comparable to a Walther M4 .22lr and a GSG 5 .22lr with recoil, if not maybe slightly more so*. My other WE L85 doesn't come close though.

 

 

 

 

*only ever shot with them at the same time as 9mm SMGs and pistols and those .22s were pathetic in comparison.

[WhiteHawksan]

you're never gonna match a 5.56 with GBBR's, my 12g's feel like a boot to the shoulder, 5.56 in a SA-80 feels a fair bit like a good punch, .22 more like a bit a shove, and that's what I feel is reasonably close to a GBBR, but each to their own.

[Azubi]

Oh I know mate, I don't expect to get anywhere near 5.56 sort of recoil from my GBBRs, nor do I want it. I just happen to enjoy using them and I feel more comfortable with the mechanical operation of them as opposed to all the electrickery and gearbox malarkey in an AEG. Saying that I have significantly more AEGs that gas guns and what I use depends entirely on my mood that day.

[Danke]

Are the folks who need to send 3 BBs to do the job of one running .2s on duster or something?

 

I can't speak for the rest of the posters here but I know I've got a five AEGs in the locker that I'll never part with. I even have my eyes peeled for a TM Recce Rifle as that may cover off some of my pet peeves.

 

As said before the big plus for gas guns to me is they're grab and go. No batteries that have a broken wire first thing, no snake charmer routine to get the battery in the gun, and so on. Any on the field vs. AEG disadvantage I can work around.

 

For setting them up it is more involved but I go out and have a "range" day with no gaming to dial them in.

 

As for the people who feel a need to splatter mud or run other players players down because they disagree, well they get fried. Just like going to someone's house and taking a *suitcase* in kitchen that's not how you win friends and influence people.

[Sallinen]

What is the most important thing to me with GBBRs, is the feedback. AEG gives nothing, when a GBB atleast gives a noticeable bump to thy shoulder. I know my AK doesnt kick anything compared to a real one, but guess what, its a million times more fun than an AEG. Also its nowhere near as hard to maintain compared to an AEG which is a real pain in the *albartroth* to open when something is broken.

 

If here is anyone with enough skills, could you calculate the following: the potential energy in 20ml of 150 PSI/10bar air . That is roughly the amount of air I spend on each shot with my AK. That is enough to slug 600grams of steel towards my shoulder in a swift manner in any reasonable weather condition you can imagine of, be it -25 celsius or +40celsius.

 

But well, to each their own. There are already solutions between AEGs and GBBs, but they have their own gimmicks that scare the people away.

[tquilha]

To the OP: don't think about it. Just do it.

Get the open bolt version, and use green gas or propane.

CO2 is a bit of overkill IMHO.

 

Above all, have fun!

[3vi1-D4n]

...to be honest, my point about the requirement for more shots to penetrate and to make up for the lack of accuracy would be far less of an issue if our FPS limits were higher, being able to use 0.3g BBs at 400 FPS would change that considerably, and I'd be happy using 30rd mags then, I just find that with 90 rounds I end up changing mags roughly as often as I'd be changing real mags, and I don't fire much differently in airsoft,...

 

Aside from the raised FPS as a solution to the penetration problem, I find that on my GBBRs I tend to fire 2-3 rounds semi-auto even on 400fps per target if I engage over 20m. Reason is that: a) by the time one fires the 3rd round, the first BB would've just reached the target at 20-40m, so 3 rounds creates more certainty. often people don't register single BB hits as BBs tend to feel like bushes hitting or raindrops falling.

 

The other point is how quickly do we change mags. I find that it depends on the type of game. If I use mid caps on an MMOFPS type game it does roughly correlate to how quickly you would change real mags. In strategy focused scenario games midcaps are like SAWs, where low caps and real cap changes are more similar to real deal.

 

Its really dependent on how quick your team is in identifying the targets and how good is their fire control, and of course how good the leadership is to manouvre the squad/section out of the contact.

 

 

As I said, the recoil is nowhere near close, if you're happy with it then all power to you, but it isn't close at all, and for me it's not even strong enough to be worth considering as a feature, unless that SVD WhiteHawksan mentioned is a fierce as he's heard, I've tried other people's GBBs on a few occasions, and I was immediately struck by the fact that the recoil does not affect my sight picture, perhaps that's because I'm used to controlling 5.56 recoil, so it just feels like nothing by comparison, but that's still my experience of it.

As such, it's not a feature to me.

 

As mentioned by others, the feedback and the "cost" of each shot, increases the players awareness to the weapon system, which indirectly affects their ammo control and their pre-battle prep work. Odd as this may seem, this creates the experience and enjoyment which people like.

 

You are right, recoil on the GBBRs aren't as great as the real steel, but most of the time its enough, even for close country/FIBUA training. Just the fact that even at 400fps people don't feel BB hits particularly in room clearing situations, which is where .43cal is a lot better.

 

...I'm saying that there is literally no reason for GGB users to claim some kind of superiority over those with AEGs, and that the frequently claimed reason (lower mag capacity) is available to anyone who wishes to buy smaller mags.

I'm not saying that GBBs are inferior (although I have doubts about the way users seem to have to baby them, but I'm sure that'll change as they improve) I'm saying that having one does not make you better than everyone else.

Again, I'm sorry if anything other than an overwhelmingly positive and fawning comment about GBBs offends you, but that's your problem, not mine.

 

I got the point the first time round. Douchebags will always exist in Hobbies, even in choirs. There are varying degrees in douchebags. Some want to be helpful while some want to start a personality cult. Having been exposed to airsofters, paintballers, ram players, re-enactors, military, health system etc they are everywhere and will find excuses to 1-up anybody, particularly if they are a junior with a bit of power.

 

So that is a separate issue altogether. But the fundamental fact I did find is the incompatibilities between airsofters and ram players are essentially because of the perception that "kids play with small balls and men play with big balls that hurt", and "I work for my kills, 'softers just spam". While the 1st statement isn't true (particularly when we nail them with 0.3gs at 400fps), the 2nd statement is. Base on this, I can see that it is similar to why some *douchebag* GBBR users see AEG players being "unworthy".

[Cannonfodder80]

Some really helpful info and I think this may go in here rather than starting a whole new thread

 

I'm also looking at getting my first GBBR and I'm thinking of going for the G&G CM16L http://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/acatalog/G-G-CM16-Raider-Gas-Blow-Back-GGS_16P_RDL_BBB.html#.UJQvQ7cgHTo

 

However I can't find any reviews online so does anyone have any experience of them? More specifically how reliable are they out of the box and do I have to do any upgrades or do they run fine out of the box?

 

All advice is much appreciated

[Fox62]

Some really helpful info and I think this may go in here rather than starting a whole new thread

 

I'm also looking at getting my first GBBR and I'm thinking of going for the G&G CM16L http://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/acatalog/G-G-CM16-Raider-Gas-Blow-Back-GGS_16P_RDL_BBB.html#.UJQvQ7cgHTo

 

However I can't find any reviews online so does anyone have any experience of them? More specifically how reliable are they out of the box and do I have to do any upgrades or do they run fine out of the box?

 

All advice is much appreciated

 

For what you're getting with that gun, I'd recommend you go for an EBB AEG.

 

It doesn't really have ANY of the realistic features of a proper GBBR, such as realistic field stripping, function (full travel bolt, bolt doesn't lock back), internals (proper bolt carrier group, trigger group), recoil very similar to that of an EBB gun. No aftermarkets for the main system. And you still have the drawbacks of running with a gas in mag design, and probably a poorly designed one. If you want a cheap and some of the best GBB's out there, you can get a WE SCAR or G36 for under 300.

 

 

Fox.

[Cannonfodder80]

Thanks for the info but THB the realistic stripping, closed bolt firing and the lack of full travel on the bolt aren't really an issue to me. I'm more interested in the reliability and performance

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

One thing to beware of with those rifles - There is no *easy* way to lower the FPS. If it shoots hot, you're going to have to do some serious work to lower the output.

[Fox62]

Thanks for the info but THB the realistic stripping, closed bolt firing and the lack of full travel on the bolt aren't really an issue to me. I'm more interested in the reliability and performance

 

That gun probably is less reliable and performs worse than all the GBBR's out there that are known to work well. Now, I don't know the specifics of the gun, but for the simple reason that it's a system with no aftermarkets, that isn't widely owned, you'll have an issue already.

 

Why would you want a gas in mag design if you want the best possible performance and don't care about realism?

 

No offense, but I think you don't know what you're talking about at all.

 

 

Fox.

[Cannonfodder80]

I never claimed to know about GBBRs, hence my questions and no offence to you but starting your replies with "probably" makes me think you don't either

[Fox62]

I never claimed to know about GBBRs, hence my questions and no offence to you but starting your replies with "probably" makes me think you don't either

 

The GBBR's that are known to work, work very well. And they have all the realistic features you want in a GBBR. It would make no sense that some budget gun that's neither an AEG, nor a proper GBBR would work better than a gun that works very, very well.

 

If you don't care about the features of a GBBR, why are you even wondering about this gun? It has the few real "drawbacks" of a GBBR (inconsistency of the gas in mag design to a greater or lesser degree, spending more on gas, limited ammo), without any of the benefits.

[Cannonfodder80]

I'm interested in this gun because I am and as you obviously can't answer the questions I asked I'm going to just leave it at that untill someone can

[Fox62]

I'm interested in this gun because I am and as you obviously can't answer the questions I asked I'm going to just leave it at that untill someone can

 

What part of this gun being not only budget, but "very bad" don't you understand? For the same money you can get a very good EBB AEG. Not a full plastic M4 that is inconsistent, makes you spend on gas, and has the SAME blowback as an EBB gun.

[Cannonfodder80]

Just waiting for a reply that doesn't start with the word probably

 

Edit: sod it, please explain how the realistic features this gun doesn't have are a benefit and no just a gimmick?

 

Dr AlexanderTobacco: thanks I didn't see your post untill now

[Fox62]

Edit: sod it, please explain how the realistic features this gun doesn't have are a benefit and no just a gimmick?

 

The fact that the gun doesn't have a functional bolt catch is a disadvantage (and unrealistic). The gun is made out of plastic unlike any of the serious GBBR's. And if you're actually buying a GBBR, why would you consider the recoil and all the other realistic features just a "gimmick"?

 

The gun will perform worse than a 150 USD EBB FULL METAL M4 from another brand.

 

Now, if you're gonna keep trolling me, PLEASE get the gun.

 

 

Fox.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

 

Dr AlexanderTobacco: thanks I didn't see your post untill now

 

No problem, because it's not a proper GBB rifle, you can't get any parts like an NPAS (Which in case you're not familiar with it, allows you to change the FPS with just a turn of the screwdriver). As it's only really G&G that make these rifles, and they're relatively new, I doubt anything else will be coming out in the future that allows you to lower the FPS.

[hwagan]

The G&G GBB's are still new territory, but they have a few things in their favour:

 

Lack of full bolt travel/full size bolt - In theory, better gas efficiency.

Available from UK retailers - Pro Airsoft Supplies offer a 3 month guarantee. That means, if it's showing signs of going badly wrong within those 3 months (Usually the kind of time a GBB is likely to fail seriously if it's going to) you can return it under guarantee, so you're relatively safe.

Easily obtainable mags, and most retailers that deal in G&G stuff can obtain all G&G parts, so even if there's no aftermarket, stock parts shouldn't be a problem.

 

They're a little untested at the moment, but I don't think they're a hugely bad option. Sure, you lack some of the realism but you still get some of the fun to make up for it. Kind of a middle ground between AEG and GBB. Mags are available, spares should be available and G&G lately have been producing really reliable kit. That, and they're £150 - It's not like you're losing £600 if your ubergun goes catastrophically wrong. I believe they also use AEG buckings and rubbers, so you should be able to tune the hop nicely. If you can, get to Pro airsoft supplies and have a good look at one, but there are a few retailers stocking G&G GBB's now, which is rare as usually UK retailers avoid GBBR's like the plague, so there's gotta be something in them.

 

As for lowering the FPS, I believe the UK models come fitted with a valve to keep them reasonable - However, as with any GBBR, you can always cut down the inner barrel if necessary, which doesn't affect the accuracy as long as you do it cleanly. (My WOC had a 5" inner barrel and was a tack driver at 55-60 metres with a .3).

[Cannonfodder80]

 

 

The fact that the gun doesn't have a functional bolt catch is a disadvantage (and unrealistic)

How is that an explanation? I ask why and again you didn't answer the question

 

DrAT and Hwagan: thanks for the info. Posts with an explanation are always useful