UKARA Development

[hitmanNo2]

Indeed.  I have stuff a UK shop probably hasn't even heard of let alone considered not even stocking.  Rare stuff from Japan e.t.c. I remember buying WA 1911s from HK for £130 posted and seeing them in a UK shop for £299.  No thanks.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Perhaps something like the US could work - RIFs etc being shipped to RFDs ("FFLs") in the US first before being shipped to the original buyer. Most FFLs charge a small admin fee, $10 or so.

[bobthebuilder]

The main issue for airsoft purchase, is the need to somehow prove you have a valid need to own a RIF. Perhaps this is the first flaw in the legislation. When you consider it, if I decide tomorrow that I want to own an air rifle (infinately more dangerous to the public than a RIF) I simply need to go to a RFD, prove I'm 18 and chocs away.....for airsoft I need to jump through massive hoops to purchase, what in comparison to an air rifle, could be considered a toy.

 

So we know that the VCRA is a joke, and we know that UKARA allows us to play ball within the arena thats been set. 

 

I don't have any issue with retailers in the UK needing to be RFD, I don't have any issue with needing to purchase my RIF face to face.....I don't even have an issue with these clowns trying to control second hand sales (good luck on that one!), but I take massive issue with these fools trying to restrict personal imports!

 

The only people that will benefit from a restriction on personal imports are the retailers. They will not only control all movement of product into the UK, but they will be able to decide and control which products are made available to UK players. This is massively dangerous. Companies like G&G would be able to buy their way into the UK product network, and potentially other companies who are unwilling or unable to meet those financial requirements would be barred from entry. Imagine, no more Tokyo Marui, no more G&P, no chance of ever getting a Viper-tech.....

 

How this won't KILL airsoft is beyond me. Look at Franks track record to date, he's already banned GBBR from his skirmish site, what incentive would he have to allow me to purchase GBBR through his outlet?

 

What concerns me about forcing face-to-face sales, forcing the second hand market to go through retailers (again, forcing face-to-face) and banning personal imports (ditto), is that even on a smaller scale, it will force players into only having the choice of what their local store/stores have available, or are prepared to transfer in, inevitably at a cost.

 

For example, when I was down in plymouth, I could only get guns face-to-face from two places. one was a model shop that had half a dozen two-tones, and the other was an air rifle place who sold a few airsoft guns on the side, again with limited stock, and not a whole lot of decent quality gear (and the good stuff tended to be second hand, and pricey). My nearest "big" retailer with a decent selection was zero-one, out the other side of dorset, a several hour round trip.

 

So unless you have some system where RFDs, including non-airsoft sellers like airgun specialists and actual firearms stores will transfer stock between themselves, it's going to kill airsoft in a lot of the country, as players simply can't get the guns.

[FireKnife]

I must admit one thing, the whole second hand sales.

 

Good luck with that idea, considering the issue already exists with people doing it illegally punishing those that do it legally isn't going to change anything, just like we have the VCR-A as people were using RIFs illegally but I bet none of those were players or even interested in the hobby, the same as those that do it illegally now.

 

It is just an impossible undertaking and one that many people will see as stupid, whether the intentions are good or not. Criminals will always be criminals and will find a way round it leaving the serious players holding the short straw, no thanks.

 

'FireKnife'

[QQexDERA]

Having read that email yet again , I am of the opinion that it is only really about one thing - ways to make more cash. If he really did give a flying *fruitcage* about things , he'd be demanding that Plod and Trading Standards did their jobs to enforce the current laws - not coming up with an entirely different system

 

All in all, this is about profit. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

**edited for mong spelling**

[Wild_XIII]

Latest statement from FS.

 

 

Statement about the VCR suggested changes.

The email was a private email canvassing UKARA retailers for an opinion of what we could suggest as a way forward with the VCRA if it were to be changed.

The leaked publication by the Blog run by Yosser has done potentially more damage to airsoft than anyone can imagine. Should the fact that the Police raised concerns about enforcement get into the Press then you should be more worried about the consequences of any ukara discussion about VCRA changes, which in our view would be to help airsoft not destroy it.

This is our livelihood destroying the industry is the last and furthest thing from our minds.
World domination is also of no interest to us, we just want to be able to sell RIFs on a level playing field along with all the other people that sell RIFS.

The sole aim of the ukara discussion was to try and get illegal sales stopped.
These illegal sales all though great for new players are harming airsoft and are getting worse each year.

UKARA has no power to stop anyone doing anything, it is in effect a very useful method for players who are members of an insured airsoft site to buy a RIF without any hassles or delays. You buy a gun, we check you can buy it in seconds, without the system you could wait weeks to get your new purchase as it relies on the sites being available to vouch for you and a retailer being able to see a copy of the site insurance to make sure it is valid. (another discussion I think)

The email sent was seeking a majority view from UKARA members for a way forward and was not the message that was going to be passed to the Home Office.

Once the members had a majority view of what we wanted to say at this point we would have passed on our views to the Home office to add to the collection of views that they are gathering.

At NO point did it state that RIFs should be treated as Air Weapons.
It did not suggest banning internet sales
It did not suggest banning second hand sales
It did not say sales should be face to face
It did not say posting guns should be illegal

These are all assumptions by people reading between the lines or just didn't read the email properly.

All we (Firesupport) suggested was that a simple way for RIF sales to be controlled was that only RFD Air Weapon sellers should be able to sell RIFs to anyone over 18.
NOT THAT RIFS ARE AIR WEAPONS.
A simplistic view but it was just a suggestion of something that would be easy to control.
Becoming an RFD is a reasonably simple process (Firesupport are not RFDs).

You need to realise that should any change take place that it would take a long while and also involve all interested groups in a consultation process just like the original VCR Bill.
At no point were UKARA considered as a sole input to a change, the Home Office would not allow it and the Home Office would have had the Gun Trade Association (A major lobbying force in government circles) up in arms with law suites etc.

As this is now in open view, discussions are taking place with sites groups and player reps for their views.
Should opinions be formed by these groups, the site groups and player reps should then register an interest with the home office and put their group suggestions forward.

Thanks
Frank

 

What do you guys think? It seems to have cleared up a few things.

[Nickona]

It seems to me like hes dodging hoops, mainly that he hasn't mentioned anything to do with importing RIFs

[PureSilver]

I think Frank's in full-on CYA (Cover Your A**) mode. First, I'm going to post his original e-mail, and then we can compare the two side by side (or one on top of the other, or whatever):
 

Hi All

Please for now keep this confidential within the Airsoft retailers.

For the last 12 months I have been speaking to FELWEG the Firearms section of ACPO (The Association of Chief Police Officers), as high as you can get in Police Firearms area.

This is because I have been frustrated by not being able to help out UKARA members who report breaches of the VCR Act or report people exploiting loop holes. I get evidence and then noone in power seems to want to do anything.
Also RFDs cause problems by selling RIFs to anyone over 18 based on a perceived power level rather than the evidence from the Forensic Science Service report.

ACPO has been trying to find someone in Trading standards to enforce the VCR Bill because they do not think it is a Police remit.

As I have said to them both neither group want to take responsibility for enforcing the law as they always say please report to the other group.

In the last month ACPO have finally admitted in writing after trying to get Trading standards involved that they believe that the VCR Act as far as RIFs are concerned is not enforceable.
They emailed this information to the Home Office and copied to me.

The Home Office are now looking into what can now be done to make changes to make the law enforceable and simpler.

There hopefully will now be a consultation process (this may take a while, it took 2 years to sort out the VCR Act) involving interested parties as what can be done now.
I have asked to be involved in this process.

I spoke to the Home Office yesterday and they have asked for suggestions.
They are going to do something to change the situation, so better we are involved at the start in a positive way, than to just be faced with another botched solution.

My suggestion to you is that if changed we need to simplify the process whilst making it easier to sell guns.

My thoughts are:

As a good percentage of UKARA Airsoft shops are already RFD Air weapon retailers and if not then it is reasonably easy to become one.
(Firesupport is not an RFD Airweapon registered shop but all we would have to do would be apply and all that is required is a few simple changes)

The Home Office in the past have said that they would not support the sole use of any one checking system such as UKARA as this would create a cartel type environment which they could not condone.

My suggestion to get rid of any loop holes, interpretations and just ignorance of law and make it easier to enforce, as follows :-

Should accepted (big should) it would mean the end of UKARA, the end of need for checking players, no more annual fees and be able to sell to anyone over 18. Or they make take on board some or none of what we suggest.

Suggestion:-

All RIFs should be sold through Air weapon RFDs, (at least 50% of UKARA retailers are already RFDs)
RIFs to be sold to 18 and over only
Only Air weapon RFDs should be allowed to import RIFs
No restrictions on posting RIFs.
2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

Please can you reply back by end of November 2013 with your agreement to my suggestion or alterations or alternate suggestions so that I can collate and resend out to members for comment.

Should I get no reply from you then I can only assume you don't care which system is taken forward or we end up with.

Thanks
Frank

[QQexDERA]

I like how he totally ignored anything about the personal imports.

 

And as for "All we (Firesupport) suggested was that a simple way for RIF sales to be controlled was that only RFD Air Weapon sellers should be able to sell RIFs to anyone over 18" it shows that he couldn't give a damn about selling to only airsofters - he wants to sell to all and sundry. Hell, it's not as though we don't regularly see stories about air rifles in the press that are freely sold by RFDs to over 18's, is it?

 

I think me theory stands. He just wants to maximise his profit.

[bobthebuilder]

I think Frank's in full-on CYA (Cover Your A**) mode. First, I'm going to post his original e-mail, and then we can compare the two side by side (or one on top of the other, or whatever):

 

 

My reading of this actually puts it in a slightly better light.

seems fairly clear that these recommendations are something he is suggesting to other retailers, not something he's already taken to the home office/ACPO

 

Doesn't make the recommendations any less mad. But at least they haven't been pushed to the policy makers already.

[cazboab]

On the one hand I'm not naive enough to think anyone proposing changes to the VCRA would be 100% altruistic but on the other, I'm seeing conclusions in both yossers blog and this thread that go over and above the proposals that were listed I'll put them here and attatch the conclusions Yosser drew to wereI think they came from and we'll see whats left over:

• All RIFs should be sold through Air weapon RFDs, (at least 50% of UKARA retailers are already RFDs)
• RIFs to be sold to 18 and over only
• Only Air weapon RFDs should be allowed to import RIFs NO private importing RIFs/airsoft Price control and huge price rises by a ‘CARTEL’ controlling UK airsofting
• No restrictions on posting RIFs
• 2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

Well two out of five isn't bad, thats a whole 40%! Were it goes runny then we have to look at the other 80% of the conclusions, that actually contradict the proposals again, relevent lines added in red:

• NO internet sales – no small internet only retailers No restrictions on posting RIFs
• Travelling distances across country to buy airsoft weapons IN PERSON  No restrictions on posting RIFs
• NO secondhand sales – all those forums and retailers out of business - less choice for players No restrictions on posting RIFs, 2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

   

   

So the end result is one line of the proposal that accounts for almost half of the perceived problem, and the rest of it is probably imaginery. Particularly I want to know how people expect second hand sales through RFDs  would force retailers out of buisness when they're handeling admin(and likely taking a fee for doing so) on the second hand market.

[hitmanNo2]

The whole second hand thing.  If people are already breaking the law at the moment.  Why on Earth would they suddenly stop breaking it if the law changed?   They would continue to act the same. 

[bobthebuilder]

NO secondhand sales – all those forums and retailers out of business - less choice for players No restrictions on posting RIFs, 2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

 

I agree with most of what you've said (and I'm definitely guilty of thinking the first and second point.)

 

But I'm not sure I've seen anyone claim that 2nd hand sales would be banned. Just that by forcing 2nd hand sales to go through RFDs, prices would go up. Either through forcing sales to physically go through RFDs, or just by forcing RFDs to charge some kind of "transfer fee" to pay for the cost of monitoring a direct market. depending on how big those increases are, they may well stifle the 2nd hand market

That being said, a small charge (say £5 per sale) might be acceptable if it means that the market is properly policed, reducing scams.

[bankz5152]

Damn good point.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[QQexDERA]

If I, as a private individual, don't have to go through an RFD to sell my second hand 12 ft/lb air rifle to another air gunner, then why should I do it for a 1 joule Airsoft gun? The answer is obvious, Frank wants to find some way of making money from the second hand market - either directly by brokering the sale (which would obviously be charged for), or through a retailer operated website where we can fall prey to the obvious adverts

 

I stand by what I said earlier. This is about making more money

[Infadel]

I believe the closest shop to me specifically for airsoft is down in Glasgow or wherever airsoft world is Then again I don't like the customer service so I'm even further south and at this point I'm looking at a day's worth of travelling down staying overnight and a day's trip back. The closest Air Rifle place to me is actually a fishing shop that stock's the £10 Springer Pistol's Which when I was 14 I went in and bought without being asked for ID (not an unusual thing either) now I'm 19 and get asked for Identification for a 12 year old game despite me being taller than all the other 19 year olds...

 

Frankie Boy IS on damage control no two ways about it as i'm sure he has the required amount of brain cells to rub together and therefore understands that his livelihood could now be in danger.

 

although I do remember someone telling me that The dodo's would have been the smartest living thing on this planet but look where that got them a footnote as the most Idiotic and comical living creature ever in books! Besides they might have been trying to trick me so alas I hope everyone gets at what I'm poking fun at

 

 

This was sent from Tesco's Hudl*

 

 

[bankz5152]

Got a reply from ZeroOne -

 

Absolutely not, in fact we are strongly opposed to any interference in this regard with any authority.

When Fire Support approached us as a fellow UKARA board member informing us that they had been in discussions with the home office, ACPO and trading standards for the last year we were shocked that this was the first we had heard about it, given that discussions of this nature should be disclosed to all UKARA board members at the time so a united response can be given. We even more shocked at the unnecessary suggestions given that none of these authorities have, to our knowledge, requested from UKARA any proposals in the change to the way that things currently operate. To our knowledge all authorities are content to leave it as it is.

We, along with other UKARA board members, firmly believe that there is no point poking a potential hornets nest of problems for the sport, when there is absolutely no need at this time to change anything. If people within the sport poke for an official stand point where it is not necessary to do so, we all may not like the answer... since they will be duty bound to reply with one.

In a UKARA board email yesterday the majority of the board voted for no further action at this time, however Fire Support took it upon themselves to circulate an email to all UKARA members with their own personal views which, sadly has been interpreted by some as the views of UKARA when it is most certainly not.

[Leshy]

Frank's up to his eyes in alligators!

Reading AI facebook posts is hilarious, a pathetic attempt of damaged control. Someone send them a dulux card of white washes.

[PureSilver]

I've looked over this some more and concluded that Frank Bothamley is a disingenuous lying douchebag of the highest order, and one who is in full backpedal and smokescreen mode. The 'explanation' in his statement is one part obfuscation, two parts lies and three parts lies by omission. First, let's start with the standard scare tactics:
 

The leaked publication by the Blog run by Yosser has done potentially more damage to airsoft than anyone can imagine. Should the fact that the Police raised concerns about enforcement get into the Press then you should be more worried about the consequences of any ukara discussion about VCRA changes, which in our view would be to help airsoft not destroy it.

 
Translation: Do not question the Bothamley! Beware of the bogeyman, not the cartel - the fifth estate bogeyman is your real enemy! Also, Frank, as you pointed out yourself, the police didn't raise concerns about enforcement, and neither did Trading Standards ("neither group want to take responsibility for enforcing the law as they always say please report to the other group"); in fact, the only person who appears to be raising these concerns is...
 

For the last 12 months I have been speaking to FELWEG the Firearms section of ACPO (The Association of Chief Police Officers), as high as you can get in Police Firearms area.

This is because I have been frustrated by not being able to help out UKARA members who report breaches of the VCR Act or report people exploiting loop holes. I get evidence and then noone [sic] in power seems to want to do anything.

 
Firstly, a loophole is a loophole and it's entirely legal to exploit them, whatever these loopholes are since you haven't specified. Secondly, if no-one in power wants to do anything, how is that UKARA's problem? Airsofters by and large do not seem to like the VCRA very much, and are quite happy to not have it enforced strictly. Retailers don't like the VCRA because it limits the people they can sell guns to. So why is Frank so eager to demand action from the authorities, if not to prompt this kind of reform? Backpedalling furiously, Frank says that:
 

The sole aim of the ukara discussion was to try and get illegal sales stopped.
These illegal sales all though great for new players are harming airsoft and are getting worse each year.

 
BULLS***, Frank! The aim of the UKARA discussion was to "[make] it easier to sell guns" - but not to make it easier for airsofters to sell guns (in fact, to make it much harder for airsofters to sell guns), but easier for retailers to sell guns. This 'consultation' in Frank's own words has been prompted by Frank himself - not to benefit the airsofting community, but to benefit UKARA retailers, who want:
 

[W]e just want to be able to sell RIFs on a level playing field along with all the other people that sell RIFS.

 
This is not about stopping illegal sales. It is about easing the restrictions on UKARA retailers so they can compete with non-UKARA airgun retailers (who currently sell RIFs as airguns, without having to ensure VCRA compliance), and about crushing the private and second-hand markets. When Frank says "It did not suggest banning internet sales [...] It did not suggest banning second hand sales" he is flat-out lying by omission. The key tenets of his suggestions are:
 

All RIFs should be sold through Air weapon RFDs, (at least 50% of UKARA retailers are already RFDs)
RIFs to be sold to 18 and over only
Only Air weapon RFDs should be allowed to import RIFs
No restrictions on posting RIFs.
2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

 
That is a ban on internet sales in all but name in the first emboldened sentence, because internet sales in airsoft terms are not items bought from UK retailers over the internet (I could do that over the phone if I wanted to) but instead items bought online from foreign retailers, which Frank proposes banning. That is also a crushing blow, if not an outright ban, on the second hand market. Second-hand buyers don't want retailers interfering with their sales. QQexDERA is absolutely right - this is about retailers cutting themselves a slice of the second-hand market by brokering sales and charging a fee either to list adverts or to act as middleman (look how popular ZeroOne's escrow service is for an example of how popular that would be).
 
The rest of Frank's denials are a smokescreen, nothing more and nothing less. When he says things like "It did not say sales should be face to face [...] It did not say posting guns should be illegal [...] NOT THAT RIFS ARE AIR WEAPONS" he is simply throwing s*** around to confuse the issue, especially since posting RIFs is already completely legal. Saying things like "RIFs to be sold to 18 and over only" is stupid because that is already the law; the problem is not that 'there oughta be a law against it', the problem is that the law is being broken. Changing other laws to profit UKARA retailers will not stop laws being broken which is why claiming that this is about stopping illegal sales is absolute b******s. Frank, none of us care about the imaginary things your e-mail didn't say, because we're quite p***ed off already with the things that it does say, and by the way that a man that can't spell "lawsuit" is dispensing legal advice.
 
In case there's anyone out there that isn't getting the point, if those proposals are adopted they will be a catastrophe for UK airsofters. UK retailers do not deserve a monopoly on the airsoft market and there is no good reason to grant them one. UK retailers do not and will not stock many interesting RIFs and we should not have to hope that they will in order to import things that we want and can legally own. UK retailers have tried and failed to supply brokerage services to the second-hand market and we should not be forced to use their unpopular and unnecessary systems in violation of the free market and of the right to acquire and dispose of one's property privately. These proposals are transparently self-serving for UK retailers and nakedly discriminatory against airsoft players.

[hwagan]

Lots of sense, and clever words, and other cool stuff

 

 

I wish I was that eloquent without resorting to swearwords and poor metaphors. Well put, and I'm thoroughly in agreement.

[Kenworth W900]

*fruitcage* it, the posts are getting too long for me to bother reading now, so here goes...

 

[hitmanNo2]

You can count on PureSilver to destroy some BS with a well thought out reply.

[FireKnife]

*fruitcage* it, the posts are getting too long for me to bother reading now, so here goes...

 

See I don't have to see that pic, that for me is work every day, I love IT in a place where everyone else is clueless .

 

But either way all I see is layers of BS, topped off with some smoked waste of paper and a drizzle of signature 'failing to understand the will of the people over personal gain' sauce. I would read all of Puresilver's post but I know it will be aptly written so back to playing Mario Kart 7.

 

'FireKnife'

[Baddbaz]

So to all intents and purposes pure silver is saying that the" dog is biting the hands that feed it "

[Scotty H]

I think there should be a vote in no confidence in the chaiman of UKARA and he should step down and if he doesn't be removed. The very fact that he has alerted any authority be it the home office, ACPO or who ever that he himself as chairman of UKARA does not have full confidence in the current system and defence in the VRCA, can only jeopardise our sport. *fruitcage* money grabbing idiot should have kept his mouth shut. Now he should bear the consequences of his actions and hope that he has not damaged the sport for all of us. Scott.