UKARA Development

[bankz5152]

The guys over at Elite Airsoft are trying a similar thing. They (along with alot of other retailers) are not happy with the way UKARA works and are now working together for a new system.

[Leshy]

If we (the forum) created a vouching syestem were established members were used to confirm the person is an active player and illegible to purchase a RIF.

[Cannonfodder80]

And what about those players who aren't on the big forums?

[kingdong]

And what about those players who aren't on the big forums?

Make it a requirement. Maybe.

[Leshy]

UKARA alternatives

 

This requires a new topic.

Someone be a dear and start it I'm using my phone and it's a tad awkward.

[FireKnife]

If we (the forum) created a vouching syestem were established members were used to confirm the person is an active player and illegible to purchase a RIF.

 

I have been doing this for a while, using my presence on forums, at sites and being known among players and retailers to the point that they can't doubt that I play.

 

It is down to the seller or retailer though, some will only accept UKARA or a similar thing like re-enactment or theatre prop distributor. A system that requires players to vouch for each other would be good but would need to be properly done and seen as an alternative and not a primary system. I for one do it as I know for a fact that the only site near me with the correct requirements for UKARA is miles away, making it hard to be on the database given that I have to visit said site three times which is not always feasible.

 

This requires a new topic.

Someone be a dear and start it I'm using my phone and it's a tad awkward.

 

It is now: http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/211364-ukara-alternatives/&do=findComment&comment=2649008

 

'FireKnife'

[Smoke]

It's this brief, but significant passage regarding the classification of Airsoft guns that has me interested.

 

The rest of it, I can happily sit on the fence, and see both sides of the argument.

 

I'd very much like to know what parameters Frank/Fire Support/UKARA feel Airsoft falls within.

 

I find it odd that a Retailer Association should concern themselves with the end use of a product (in term of it's use in a game, ie fps, AEG/gas, ROF etc), but then I guess they also run a Site... But then Sites have their own Governing Body thingy... Has anyone heard from them regarding this? Or are they avoiding the hysteria for now?

 

To be honest, the worst I can see coming from this is a huge embarrassment for UKARA (all of them, as if Frank really has gone this far off the reservation... Why was it not picked up earlier?) and maybe a brief period of chaos while an alternative is put together. Or more likely, the UKARA database is just rebranded.

 

I totally get why some people are fuming at this, but it's not like it hasn't happened before... Anyone putting themselves up as "representing Airsoft" has been torn down eventually by the crowd. It's hardly surprising people are very wary of doing so anymore. I'm not so fast to tear a guy I don't know, down for one cock up... When to be fair he did a fair bit during the VCRB/A. He could be a grade A douché for all I know, but that's my point. I don't know his motivations.

[QQexDERA]

The UKASGB need to grow a pair. At the moment we have the tail (UKARA) wagging the dog (UKASGB). Considering that the whole UKARA system is based upon site membership, the sites do have power to force change if they wanted to (well, the ones that aren't run by retailers).

[FTZ-WildeCard]

Didn't even know the UKASGB existed until today! Funny, that. 

 

http://www.ukasgb.org.uk/

[Habakure]

I could quite happily not buy another rif/if ever again. Just get new gear boxes etc. Thats what I would say if I was worried, but I am not worried. It does appear that Frank is trying to force his view, into being law. That's quite evident.

 

I've always found uk retailers to be very helpful but very rarely have what I want in stock. So, if importation is banned (unless carried out by an approved retailer etc), then I won't be buying any more rif/if's. I'll play with what I've got, then when they fall apart, move on to knife kills (rubber of course).

[Cannonfodder80]

Are they still going? That website looks like it hasn't been updated for a few years

[Yams]

You say the UKASGB needs to grow a pair when theres not much to to grow on!  There is complete apathy from sites regarding any type of organisation and it took the threat of closure and insurance withdrawal to form the UKASGB.  Once that was dealt with even a chunk of the founder members just couldn't give a flying *fruitcage* any more and stopped bothering with it. 

It's times like this when an organisation such as the UKASGB is needed but the people who run the sites don't care enough to get involved and so those who have stuck with the organisation get my congratulations and thanks.  The only reason that UKARA is still here is that shops need it to be able to sell online.

[Apex]

Why hasn't a "player organisation" been formed that defines and controls the allocation of airsoft membership? The idea of UKARA was to provide sellers (retailers) a defense to sell, based on the buyers affiliation to airsoft. Why does this have to be run and controlled by retailers?

There is a players union > http://www.ukapu.org.uk

 

No matter how bad folks think the UKARA system is we could have ended up with much worse.

[Cannonfodder80]

No matter how bad folks think the UKARA system is we could have ended up with much worse.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Re the lack of sites interested in the UKASGB, I just found this on their site

"All guns used in Airsoft games against another player must not exceed 328fps"

 

Considering many sites run with limits above this for both AEGs and bolt action guns I can see why not many sites are interested

[Yams]

Pure guidelines and anyone who would ask questions of them would be told the same.

 

To follow that with an edit, you handily left out the part following that line where there is a 10% discretion on top of that 328 and a clause that if insured to run higher then you can disregard the relevant guidlines.  So fps choice is certainly not a limiting factor to sites wanting to get involved.

[Inari]

So some guy, who runs a business, may or may not have gotten in touch with the home office, and talked about some stuff? I'll go get the pitchfork...^{(WARNING: Gross over simplification to help make my point)}

 

Look, in all sincerity...Smoke is dead right. Like it or not, UKARA owe you nothing. The retailers owe you nothing. Frank...owes you nothing. Businesses exist to make money, and how they choose to do that is ultimately their call. There is consequences for every action, and sometimes they're not so good. They do not exist to serve customers; they exist to make money. Slaves existed to serve, and now we're slaves to money. That is the dark overlord. The fact that good service causes repeat custom is insignificant when bad service generally still gives a high value initial sale. I'm guilty of that myself; a retailer I swore I'd never shop at again, after being treated badly...but still had spent €300+. At the end of the day the vast majority of people are price-led; some people are not, and those are cool people. The rest will go for whoever has the best price, regardless of whether the person behind the counter is attractive, nice, evil etc. That's how so many deplorable retailers stay in business. One of Ireland's largest toystores has reams of angry customers, and yet they still clean up...why? In reality, people don't care quite as much as you'd think. Ethics and principles only count when there is something to lose, and most people won't put themselves out. Some will, most won't.

 

In reality what's happened here is a retailer is looking after his business, in whatever way he sees fit. He, as an individual (if you believe UKARA knew nothing about it, then as far as they're concerned he contacted HO as an individual), contacted HO to discuss his concerns with their concerns, talking about possible solutions etc. There is very little stopping you from doing the same, though you probably don't have the rapport which makes the path a little longer. However just because something is difficult doesn't mean you give up. Which brings me on to the next point, since we've already established that UKARA does not exist for you, and as such complaining about it on the internet does not do much:

 

Form your own NGB, or get behind UKAPU, and create a unified voice with value. If you're going after politicians, you need votes. Get numbers, get mobilised, and get working. If you believe there is actually a threat to the status quo, and you're not happy...then get unhappy enough to do something positive about it. Form your own organisation, make your own suggestions, and try to make a difference...or complain on the internet.

 

I don't agree with what's been done, but I can't say I'm surprised. If it is such a big deal for ye guys, then make a big deal about it and actually do something about it. Internet petitions mean jack all - get a real voice, and act! However please don't be fooled into thinking that the masses will be happy with anything you do, because they won't. In Ireland, our NGB is universally seen as a joke. They fought for our sport, got it proper legal recognition, and secured it through some hairy periods...and still they're hated. Why? Small group of people, easy to point the finger at, and most people love a good moan. Nothing will ever be good enough, but you have to make yourself happy...if you're happy to sit by and wait, and just want to complain then fine. However if you're not happy to do that, then don't.

 

Realistically though, I don't think what's going on is as big a deal as people are making it out to be. Looks to me like hurricane teacup. Basically a lad has sent a closed-group private email, looking for opinions on his opinion, and trying to get a unified voice on something. That got leaked onto the internet, and a lot of conclusions have been drawn. The facts are as follows (from reading the thread):

- An email, from Frank to UKARA members, was leaked/posted

- In that email, propositions that are disagreeable were made

- In a response to that email from some UKARA members, it is revealed that Frank has been talking to the Home Office

- In that response it is not revealed what the subject matter regarding the talks was, and is purely speculation

- Frank issued a clarifying statement, realising that something not meant for the public eye went public, and thus is on damage control (you always are when something goes public that isn't meant to)

 

I'm aware that what I'm saying isn't exactly popular, but I feel it needs to be reiterated - idle chat is superfluous to progress; if you want change, then you've got to work...and work is not easy, so remember that there will be sacrifice. It is easier to sit by and do nothing, which is why that's what we do...we sit by, look at the -fountain around us and complain harkening back to the way things were, and yet...we do nothing. Secretly, we all love a good complain, and are happiest when we're not

[Cannonfodder80]

Yamms: Fair enough. Tbh I didn't see that bit as I'm using my phone which only shows one page at a time of a PDF file

[GuzziHero]

I am usually the first person to jump footlong into a political debate but...

 

I see no issue with him sending out the emails with his suggestions, and asking other UKARA members for their input.

 

I *DO* see an issue with him not at least mentioning earlier that he was in conversation with the ACPO.

 

All seems to be blown a little out of proportion to me, but the other UKARA members need to take up the issue of the lack of communication.  This should be done privately, without all the public mud-slinging.

 

AI publishing their very biased and aggressively toned comment piece on the situation is incredibly poor form although typical of that publication's output.  

[Inq Eisenhorn]

@ Inari

 

First of all, your part about retailers and UKARA owing the players nothing......it's true, or at least, I agree with you. On the flip side, I owe them nothing, and neither does the mass of airsoft players out there. On that note, as each faction owes nothing to the other, the consumers have full justification in being as self serving and fickle as the retail faction....which in turn justifies the pitch forks and the frothing at the mouth....you see, when a dog takes a dump on your lawn, you give it a swift kick in the naggers so it knows its place and respects the boundaries.

 

That said, with regards to your second point. Again, I totally agree. Players will do nothing, and will ultimately just roll over and wait, like good little sheep, in the hope that someone (else) will come along and fix it for them. If the airsoft community loses the right to play, or even control of their sport, then it's because they've given it away.....not because it was taken.

 

So, looking around the forums and online in general there's perhaps a handful of posters that seem willing to boycott Fire Support, or at least openly show their intent to do so. There are plenty of people who seem to want to show a gentle disagreement with Franks actions, and many more who seem to want to outright support Frank. So, we already know he has won, and ironically, I say good luck to him. I hope he gets to play airsoft overlord, and I hope airsoft in the UK gets locked down tight. I hope players get to look wistfully on at all the fine products being enjoyed by our European, Asian and American brothers and sisters, stressed in the knowledge that they can neither have or afford them. I look forward to a time when airsoft is played by hordes of clones all dressed and armed the same, because that's what the retailers tell us will sell, and that's all they're willing to stock. Finally, when the remaining players get fed up, or in need of a quick buck, and decide to sell on their gear, I shall laugh like a drain when Frank and his disciples milk the fat out of those second hand sales leaving the poor seller wondering if he was better off just keeping the damn gun.

 

Yep, I see a bright and wonderful future for airsoft in the UK, even more so as I and every other player out there had to do exactly NOTHING to earn it!

[GuzziHero]

Personally, I find it easy to 'boycott' FS, and yet hard to do so intentionally, since I haven't bought anything airsoft related for some time now.

 

Okay, the way I see it breaking down is this:

 

The Home Office/ACPO doesn't give two flying figs about us.  They only care about how they can get themselves to look as shiny and golden as possible.  For that, they want to get on the good side of whoever seems to be the most powerful voice on the subject.  That is UKARA.

 

They have gone to the chairman of the UKARA, Frank, and said "How can you polish the turd that is the VCRA so that we look like golden boys.  We cannot, of course, admit that the VCRA is a turd, so we need to shine it up real smart.  But we don't want to touch it.  We want you to do it for us".

 

Frank has sat down to draft what he thinks will be a suitable range of measures required to a. polish that turd and b. show the ACPO that he will make it shine.  If he doesn't suggest rigid enough measures, it could be equally bad or worse, since the ACPO could say "The VCRA is not stringent enough, we need to pull that Airsoft defence".  If that happens, we all lose, but remember that ACPO doesn't give a damn.  That puts Frank's position as both a reputable UKARA chairman, and as a business owner in danger.  No RIF defence, he can't sell Jack.  He is in a difficult position.

 

What has gone wrong here, however, is that he has failed to communicate swiftly and comprehensively the situation to the other UKARA members.  Thus, when the (still unpolished) turd hit the fan, it came out the other side in the messiest and worst way possible.

 

I do NOT defend the strictness of his suggestions so far.  I also do NOT believe, from what I have seen, that he has drafted them with the intention of becoming some airsoft overlord.  He needs to protect his livelihood, and that means he has to protect the airsoft exemption.  

 

Right now, I am reserving judgment on whether Frank  should be villified or not.  Right now, I don't think it is warranted.  But UKARA needs to consider whether is a suitable person to lead, if he does not adequately share information with the group.

[RWJP]

I see it took 8 pages to get a reasonable response from one of our members... GG Inari.

To the rest of you... Wow, just directly insulting the guy, with a spectacular knee-jerk reaction. It's kind of ironic really. You lot are the first to complain about when our government or another government makes a knee-jerk reaction with regards to anything firearms or airsoft related, yet as soon as the situation is reversed, you behave exactly the same. Really dissapointing to be perfectly honest, to see a lot of you acting like children calling people names is really kinda depressing.

So, there are some things in Frank's suggestions that I do not like, I will 100% oppose any limitations on importing, same with second hand sales. It's not necessary to limit that, as frankly things have worked pretty well so far. I don't believe that importing needs to be handled by retailers (although I can see why it would be suggested)

However, his comments about all Airsoft retailers becoming Air Weapon RFDs makes a hell of a lot of sense in my book. It puts an onus on retailers to provide a minimum level of service, and security, which will only make things better. Becoming an RFD means you will be inspected by the Plod on a regular basis. GREAT! That means that scumbags like SAS (Special Airsoft Supplies?) will be wiped out instantly! On the otherhand, proper retailers will be in a far better legal position, they will have support and recognition from the local police, and a good legal standing to fall back on, which can only be a good thing.

I see a lot of you bitching about how these suggestions will make Airsoft sales face to face... No they won't. At no point was it suggested that Airsoft guns would be classified as Air Weapons, and as such, that means they can still be sold online as usual. If Frank was suggesting that, then he would be seriously harming his own business as well, which would be kinda stupid don't you think?

So sure, some of these suggestions are really bad, and Frank has gone beyond his station, but frankly, the people at fault in this are Yosser, for over-sensationalising this for his blog (remember, he is in this as much as Frank is to make a *suitcase* ton of money, which he probably will have done with his attention-grabbing rumour mongering), whoever gave the email to Yosser, and you lot, for bitching and whining and insulting and acting like a bunch of spoiled kids.

And in the end, these are all suggestions, nothing more. If you want to rage, go ahead, but you will be contributing nothing at all. If you want to look at this like adults, take a reasoned view, and then contribute reasoned opinions, then go ahead, you might make things better overall. I know I've taken the latter and have sent an email to UKARA explaining my view on the suggestions, and what I would like to see.

 

[blobface]

I see it took 8 pages to get a reasonable response from one of our members... GG Inari.

 

Have we been reading the same thread? Inari's points have already been raised by many, perhaps not as condensed and well constructed as his.. but "reasonable"? What, multiple detail breakdown of every points made by Frank wasn't reasonable enough? Pointing out his dishonesty in his damage control announcements isn't reasonable? Boycotting any company whose view we do not agree with since it could harm the sport, isn't reasonable? Inari's points weren't about people namecalling, it's mainly about if we want change, do something about it, and I fail to see how spreading the word to boycott if you disagree with the proposals isn't "doing something", I'm not saying that's all we do, but that's certainly one of the first things we can do, afterall customers vote with their wallets, and this should send a clear message that at least some of us, disagree with his proposals, that's all this is suppose to achieve. Firesupport won't close down because of this, but it's 100% certain that he now understands that what he was suggesting was not popular amongst many players / customers. And if nobody said anything, raged on their Facebook page, instead sat back and said nothing because we'd hate to be thought of by RWJP as a bunch of "spoiled kids" "bitching and whining" , then he'd think nobody's opposing the ideas. 

 

and for crying out loud, it's the internet, stop repeating "namecalling" as if it's the worst thing possible and sounding like you're offended on behalf of others, you just called another retailer a bunch of scumbags and us a bunch of whiny spoiled kids... which within a few namecalling words illustrated how you feel about the two groups of people, hence why it's a useful tool.

 

Let's face it, no one gives a toss about your view, your nice little "reasonable" "adult" email will fall on deaf ears, and that's nothing personal, no one gives a toss about my view neither, but retailers certainly give a toss about my money, which is why, as airsofters, voting with our wallet is the only thing we can really do at this particular point to let Frank know how we feel. 

[Baddbaz]

If a change is due it should be to a yearly photo card license . This would not only stop ukara fraud . It would also give the player a visible defence to show to any police / agencies if stopped by them . Also it could be used by sites to ban players if they get out of line. / punch ups , thefts etc . A yearly subscription say 10 pound would take the strain away from retailers as well ,

Maybe a 25 pound first registration and 10 pound every year there after would be acceptable to most skirmishers. . ?

It would also make second hand sales a lot easier to check . No license , no sale . The same could be used for Internet sales .

Also the fact that every new player thinks ukara is a licence anyway

[Infadel]

If a change is due it should be to a yearly photo card license . This would not only stop ukara fraud . It would also give the player a visible defence to show to any police / agencies if stopped by them . Also it could be used by sites to ban players if they get out of line. / punch ups , thefts etc . A yearly subscription say 10 pound would take the strain away from retailers as well ,

Maybe a 25 pound first registration and 10 pound every year there after would be acceptable to most skirmishers. . ?

It would also make second hand sales a lot easier to check . No license , no sale . The same could be used for Internet sales .

Also the fact that every new player thinks ukara is a licence anyway

I agree Baz but is that not what people are complaining about regarding a retailer Cartel?

I personally love any Legit excuse to go have my photo taken so no qualms from me about it but dose a licence not have to come from a government controlled group?

 

This was sent from Tesco's Hudl*

 

 

[Baddbaz]

The rc world have a licencing system for rc planes nowadays , different propulsion requires different tests to gain one etc .

Also it could be a membership type card as many gyms. , clubs use . Would still require a central database to log the details , as ukara does now .

Sites issue photo cards / memberships already so just take it up a level and link it up to ukara or a similar organisation . If you don't renew every year or play at least one game you have to go back to step one . 3 games and a new registration fee . If all the sites link in to it it would solve the being locked to one site to keep your defence problem as well .

Should be self funding as well with all the subscriptions coming in .

If done correctly a database could be used by retailers / sites to advertise goods services on . As well as update players on legal issues etc . Retailers / sites could pay a fee to advertise in it . Registered players should be allowed to opt in or out of receiving advertising .

Maybe an existing non biased forum could take it on . ?