FFS! What NEXT!?!?!?!?

[xRAZERx]

I was under the impression that WE (the Brits) spied on the USA and they spied on us then we swapped info?

[Diemaco]

I don't think 'loony muslim' I am not religious because in my eyes religion causes wars. If they are so defensive why do the ycome to our countries to blow things up, defense is usually something in retalliation. AQ and the Taliban have nothing to do with the Palestine/Israel our forces do, the UN are there officially to stop both sides fighting not to take sides. Palestine started this war so really I would'nt blame the UN if they did officially take sides with Israel. In an interview. Bin Laden said ''The reason we bombed the WTC is because some Israeli Jews destructed two of Palestine's highest buildings'' Or something along those lines

[Misfit]

Well, Menwithhill is right next to me.. I've even been inside the camp.. they have cool dogs, they're really nice. The yanks were nice there too, they bought me some thing from America that's apparently worth alot here, it was worth around £200, but the camp bought it for me because I used to be in there alot.

 

My mum worked in the pharmacy, giving yankees shots before they went to Iraq, and I used to just sit in the tea room making people cups of tea.. though they preferred coffee. Anyway, enough of that random story, doesn't the American Government watch UK Telephonic Transmissions via Menwithhill?

[mig_eater]

good greif, there's alot of testosterone flying around tonight.

 

Chimpy, how exactly do we rescue our man? in iraq the only sucessful hostage rescue i saw was jessica lynch and that was only because the iraqi's had buggered off 3 hours before the americans went in all delta'd up. Kill them all? by doings so we create martyr's, and the religous fundermentals bring them up to folk hero status, thus alot of guys who are exactly the same as us get hyped up and want to become martyrs too, they have the same testosterone as what flying round the forum, is 'kill the infidel' really any different from 'kill the fundermentalists and all those who support them'?

 

Cheers

Mig

[elrey]

I'd rather have a president that *fruitcage*s interns than one that listens to my phone calls.

[Chimpy]

I don't think 'loony muslim' I am not religious because in my eyes religion causes wars. If they are so defensive why do the ycome to our countries to blow things up, defense is usually something in retalliation. AQ and the Taliban have nothing to do with the Palestine/Israel our forces do, the UN are there officially to stop both sides fighting not to take sides. Palestine started this war so really I would'nt blame the UN if they did officially take sides with Israel. In an interview. Bin Laden said ''The reason we bombed the WTC is because some Israeli Jews destructed two of Palestine's highest buildings'' Or something along those lines

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or something like that.

 

I'm not religious either and agree that it causes more trouble sometimes than it's worth. However its the world we live in so it's better to understand it than be ignorant of it.

 

Nothing you have posted so far says you are anything more than ignorant.

[PANZER8]

It was Israel that started all that *beep* btw about 2000 years ago

[Diemaco]

Some of my best mates are muslims and don't say this they say that AQ are sick and mostly agree with me on AQ. Having my own opinion makes me ignorant?

[Foxtrot]

mmmm - So WHO decides who are the good people and the bad...? Who decides if you ARE doing something wrong? We're all airsofters - Potential gun criminals - Should WE be monitored by the state?

 

Robert Mugabe does this - Is that OK? No? Ah!!!!

 

It's actually illegal, too, but as it's the President, it's OK?

 

What ARE we trying to defend FROM terrorists if not our freedoms?

 

The freedom NOT to be spied upon being one of those...

 

Cheers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Alright, time to get into details:

 

Small things that the news isn't mentioning very widely:

 

1. This has been known about, and has been going on for well over half year now. Nothing new, I'm sorry - but our congress members were all breifed on this. There was a quick snip in the news some time ago about it, but that was it. I don't see what the big woo-ha is now, when if someone wanted to pitch a *badgeress*, they should of done it WHEN IT WAS FIRST NEWS.

 

2. Second thing. This system does NOT monitor everyone. It does not monitor the every day joe, who goes to work at 8, and leaves at 5. Nor the person who works the night shift at the local wally world. NO NO NO NO. Don't take it out OUT OF CONTROL.

 

Read the fine print people. News/media want to sell their product. Thusly, want EVERYONE to worry about it.

 

Fine print: This system only monitors people that leave the country on unoffical/undocumented leaves to countries that the State department warns not to visit. (i.e. Iraq, Syria, some african countries, north korea, Cuba, etc.)

 

These people, are then monitored once they get back into the US to check for suspecious e-mails, etc.

 

Only way, Me, or you would get monitored would be:

 

We send an e-mail to mr. Osama from durka durka stan, reguarding bombs. Mr. Osama, just happened to get back from Syria.

 

Once again, a lovely example of how the Media, throws up smoke screens from the real information

 

I don't think our blowing up 30,000 of their civilians gives them reason to stop a Jihad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hmmm... last I checked the insergency has actually killed 10 or 12 times more iraqi civilians then the coalition in Iraq has.

 

Oh, and how do you explain Iraqi insurgents setting off bombs in Jordan at a MUSLIM wedding?

 

 

Beleive me - I think the current president of the US is bust. I really do. But at the same time I think the media has a very strong hold over you guys... Come on... read news from a few places.. not just a single place. Or... Oh he said she said kinds of things.

 

Most of this stuff is half truths and made up ######.

[Diemaco]

Afghanistan, yes.

 

Iraq, no. It's well known that Islamist organisations had no love for Iraq or indeed the other way around.

 

They want us to do that, well *fruitcage* them I say. We will find the people responsible and kill them and all the people that helped them hopefully rescuing our man in the process. People need to understand if they want a War then there will be casualties, civilian and military, on both sides and in large numbers (more of theirs than ours hopefully!).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is happening in Iraq not Afghanistan

[Chimpy]

good greif, there's alot of testosterone flying around tonight.

 

Chimpy, how exactly do we rescue our man? in iraq the only sucessful hostage rescue i saw was jessica lynch and that was only because the iraqi's had buggered off 3 hours before the americans went i'm all delta'd up.  Kill them all? by doings so we create martyr's, and the relgious undermentals bring them up to folk hero status, thus alot of guys who are exactly the same as us get hyped up and want to become martyrs too, they have the same testosterone as what flying round the forum, is 'kill the infidel' really any different from 'kill the fundermentalists and all those who support them'?

 

Cheers

Mig

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes because I understand why I'm killing him and the effects it will have further down the line.

 

I have no magic bullet solution but giving the terrorists blankets and tea will not help! If we look at history for a starting point (other successful COIN operations Borneo etc) we need to remove the terrorists bases of support (civ pop, supply lines) and stop their movements (massive deployment of troops, in this case probably requiring draft). This will lead to a much larger casualty rate amongst our troops, the civilian population and crucially the terrorists/insurgents. The very fact we cannot keep Rt. Irish safe shows how we are failing on those two areas.

[elrey]

Don't ask me how a terrorist's mind works.

[Chimpy]

This is happening in Iraq not Afghanistan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What is? The yanks are tapping their own phones in the states from Iraq?

 

Incase you hadn't noticed there are terrorist attacks in A'stan too, its just not sexy to report on the justifiable war.

[Chimpy]

Some of my best mates are muslims and don't say this they say that AQ are sick and mostly agree with me on AQ. Having my own opinion makes me ignorant?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No your opinion is ignorant.

 

Why? It isn't based on easily gained facts and knowledge. Or even the opinion of people who have looked at the facts and knowledge. A mix of both would be preferable, the two books I mentioned previously are a great read and do combine both.

 

Here's a hint YOU CAN ALSO READ AL-QUEDAS RATIONALE ON THE INTERNET!

[PANZER8]

Not at all, but read up on the subject first at least.

 

Believe nothing that you hear,and only half of what you see

[Diemaco]

So I have no books on the war and I don't read up on the war? I understand that the US have done bad things, but other nations have donr far worse. I am talking about the beheadings in my previous post as somebody said tha tit was happening in A'stan

[Chimpy]

Believe nothing that you hear,and only half of what you see 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The truth is out there!

 

[PANZER8]

Don't ask me how a terrorist's mind works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats the thing, i reckon these twats see themselves as "crusaders" first and fore most.

 

OR

 

They feel the same as us........just the other end of the spectrum?

[Chimpy]

So I have no books on the war and I don't read up on the war? I understand that the US have done bad things, but other nations have donr far worse. I am talking about the beheadings in my previous post as somebody said tha tit was happening in A'stan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, this is why your opinion is ignorant. It's not a bad thing, I'm ignorant about quite a lot of different subjects (cooking for one!) and doubt I know half as much about the current conflict as I should to debate this properly!

 

I also enjoy debate waaay more than is healthy.

[Diemaco]

I too enjoy arguing. I don't think anybody who isn't in the NSA MI5 etc. can argue this. And those who are in can't either so it is a dead starter really. I can cook. Ha.

[Prometheus]

Me? None. This is happening in the US. They are losing the freedom to speak as they wish without being illegally monitored.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'

 

Going back to the first couple of pages.....

 

 

Sledge.....You do know that the UK has one of the most sophicitcated Camera systems in the world, irght? How do you think they caught all those terrorists in Longdon after those trains blew up? They had camra footage of every angle of the city.......

 

 

I am personally against all this camera, system, flagged, Echelon Three CR4P!

 

 

I'd rather be in danger than have my privacy in danger. You don't need to spy on your citizen to see danger coming at you. They could have prevented September 11th, they just didn't want to. They wanted a war. They wanted all this to happen. That is what scares me the most. Things aren't like they are supposed to be. Political ###### is getting in the way and giving out rights up to be monitored like we're all criminals....

[PANZER8]

So I have no books on the war and I don't read up on the war? I understand that the US have done bad things, but other nations have donr far worse. I am talking about the beheadings in my previous post as somebody said tha tit was happening in A'stan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you have sky/cable/freeveiw tv they have a programme on BBC3/4? called "DAYS THAT SHOOK THE WORLD" one of them is about the birth of modern Israel, its a minute by minute eye-witness account of the whole thing.

Watch it and i defy you to be moved by the palestinian plight then and today.

It really was an eye opener for me, and crucially gave me an new perspective on the whole nightmare overthere.

[xRAZERx]

Why can all the cameras and the like be a bad thing, you yourself have just admitted that the July bombers were caught because of our great CCTV network.

 

So how can it be a bad thing for anyone but people who are breaking the law.

 

GCHQ, Echelon as far as I am concerned hell yeah.

[Diemaco]

Go xRx I doubt there is anybody on the forums that knows more about the Met CCTV system than him.

[Chimpy]

Islam, Jihad, and Terrorism

http://www.iiie.net/Brochures/Brochure-33.html

 

"Islam" and other various Islamic terms and concepts are grossly misunderstood in the West. Muslims can hardly find anyone to blame but themselves because (a) they have failed to live by the Islamic tenants in our times, and ( they have failed to promote understanding of Islam in the West through outreach projects. This brochures is a humble attempt to briefly explain the terms given in the title. The Institute of Islamic Information & Education (III&E) has published almost fifty brochures and several articles for promoting understanding of Islam among Muslims and non-Muslims equally. Please write to the III&E or visit their web site for more information.

 

Some of the Islamic Terms

 

Islam means a commitment to live in peace through submission to the Will of God (Allah).

Muslim is a person who makes a commitment to live in peace through servitude to Allah.

Jihad means "struggle" and "strive" against evil thoughts, evil action and aggression against a person, family, society or country. Jihad may be a "justifiable war", borrowing the Christian term.

Mujahid is a person who engages in Jihad for the sake of Allah according to the Qur'an (Muslim's source book for guidance) and Sunnah (the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him). Mujahideen is the plural of Mujahid.

"Islamic terrorism" – There is no such phrase or term in the Islamic source books of the Qur'an or the Sunnah and has no place in Islam.

Sunnah – Sunnah is the preferred way of the Prophet Muhammad that includes his teaching. The sources of the Sunnah are authentic Hadith (reports of the Prophet's sayings, doings and approvals) collections.

The True Meaning of "Jihad"

 

Jihad is usually associated with Islam and Muslims, but in fact, the concept of Jihad is found in all religions including Christianity, Judaism and political/economic ideologies, such as, Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, etc. Islam defines Jihad as striving and struggling for improvement as well as fighting back to defend one's self, honor, assets and homeland. Also, Jihad is interpreted as the struggle against evil, internal or external of a person or a society. Jihad, in Islam, means doing any or all but not limited to the following:

 

Learn, teach, and practice Islam in all aspects of one's life at all times to reach the highest and best education in order to benefit oneself, family and society.

Be a messenger of Islam everywhere, in every behavior and action.

Fight evil, wrongdoing, and injustice with all one's power by one's hand (action), with one's tongue (speech), or at least with one's heart (prayer).

Respond to the call for Jihad with money, effort, wisdom and life; yet, never fight a Muslim brother, a Muslim country, or a non-Muslim society that respects its treaties and harbors no aggressive designs against Islam or Muslims.

Suicide under any pretext is not condoned as Jihad in Islam.

Converting people to Islam by force or coercion is never Jihad but a crime, punishable by law.

The promise of "70 or 72 virgins" is fiction written by some anti-Islam bigots.

The Levels of Jihad

 

A personal struggle within one's self to submit to Allah, fight evil within one's self, achieve higher moral and educational standards - Inner Jihad.

Jihad against evil, injustice and oppression within one's self, family and society - Social Jihad.

Jihad against all that prevents Muslims from servitude to God (Allah), people from knowing Islam, defense of a Muslim society (country), retribution against tyranny, and/or when a Muslim is removed from their homeland by force - Physical Jihad or an armed struggle.

The Qur'an defines physical Jihad as being the highest level of Jihad that one can undertake. Its reward is eternal Paradise. Muslims also know that all humans are accountable for what they have done during their life on this earth. Muslims will be asked about what they did with their lives and their level of submission to Allah on the Day of Judgment.

 

Does Jihad mean Holy War?

 

In Islam, there is no such thing as holy war. This terminology was generated in Europe during the Crusades and their war against Muslims. Islam recognizes Jews and Christians as the "People of the Book" because they all follow the Prophet Abraham, believing in Moses' and Jesus' teachings. For many centuries, Muslims have peacefully coexisted with Christians, Jews, and people of other faiths, maintaining social, business, political and economic treaties. Islam respects all humans and faiths as long as there is no religious oppression, forbidding Muslims from serving Allah, preventing others from learning about Islam, and not respecting treaties. For more information on the topic of Jihad see the brochure Jihad Explained or request brochure #18 from the III&E, the publisher of this article.

 

Who is authorized to call for Jihad as a war?

 

Jihad must be performed according to Islamic rules and regulations and only for the sake or in the service of Allah. The physical or military Jihad must be called by a Muslim authority, such as, a president or head of a Muslim country after due consultations with the learned leadership.

 

What Does Islam Say about Terrorism?

 

The term "terrorism" does not exist in the Qur'an or the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. If the terms "terrorist or terrorism" are derived from a verb used in the Qur'an, such as 5:33 describing a "Muslim's" terrorist acts, it is in condemnation and prescribes most severe punishment. Islam is a religion and a way of life that does not separate politics from religion. Islam is a religion of mercy, unity and most importantly peace with one's self and others, to defend not to fight. Allah said in His Book the Qur'an:

 

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes, that you should show them kindness and deal justly with them. God loves just dealers." (Qur'an 60:8)

 

"Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not begin aggression. for God loves not aggressors." (Qur'an 2:190)

 

"If they seek peace, then seek you peace and trust in God for He is the Hearer, the Knower." (Qur'an 8:61)

 

"… and let not the hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is next to piety; and fear Allah, for Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." (Qur'an 5:8)

 

"But (remember that an attempt at) requiting evil may, too, become an evil: hence whoever pardons (his foe) and makes peace, his reward rests with Allah- for, verily He does not love transgressors." (Qur'an 42:40)

 

"The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he between whom and thee there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a bosom friend. (Qur'an 41:34)

 

Some of the Prophet Muhammad's Teachings (Sunnah)

 

He prohibited Muslim soldiers from killing women, children and the elderly, or cut a palm tree, and he advised them, "… do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child."

"Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years."

"The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed." Killing is the second major sin in Islam.

"Truly your blood, your property, and your honor are inviolable."

"There is a reward for kindness shown to every living animal or human."

Islam and Human Rights

 

The Qur'an and Sunnah encourage Muslims to respect the life and property of all mankind.

In an Islamic State these rights are considered sacred, whether a person is Muslim or not.

Islam protects honor, forbids insulting others, and/or making fun of them.

Islam rejects certain individuals or nations being favored because of their wealth, power, and/or race.

All Muslims believe that Allah created all humans free and equal, only to be distinguished from each other on the basis of God-consciousness or piety and never on the basis of race, color or ethnicity.

Islam is a practical religion that respects all human beings and it was revealed for all mankind. Its message is that of peace and submission to Allah. Muslims believe in all the Prophets mentioned in the Bible, and the Qur'an. The Qur'an shares many moral teachings of the Old Testament and the New Testament. These three religions (and their books) were founded upon the revelations by One True God, Allah. For more information on this topic please see the brochure Human Rights In Islam or ask for brochure #7 from the III&E, the publisher of this article.

 

Jihad in the Bible

 

Let us see what the Bible has to say about Jihad in the meaning of war and violence. The following verses are from the Bible, New International Version (NIV), 1984, italics added.

 

"Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. Exodus 22:18-20

 

"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' The Levites did as Moses commanded and that day about three thousand of the people died." Exodus 32:27-28

 

"The LORD said to Moses, 'Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites…. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps…. (Moses ordered) "Now kill all the boys. And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31: 1-18

 

(Jesus said) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:27

 

"He (Jesus) said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Luke 22:36

 

Differential treatment

 

Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy and forgiveness. If an individual Muslim were to commit an act of terrorism, this person would be guilty of violating the basic tenants of Islam. When Timothy McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma City building, no American or Christian was labeled as a terrorist or was the target of hate crimes. When Irish Christians carry out acts of terrorism against each other and on the British Isles, the Christian religion is not blamed but individuals or their political agenda. Unfortunately, the same is not true for American Muslims and Arabs. The vast majority of Muslims or Arabs have no association with the violent events around the world yet Islam is invoked with terrorism. It is unfair to 1.2 billion Muslims of the world and religion of Islam.

 

Criteria of guilt

 

Innocent until proven guilty in an open court is an accepted universal principle of justice along with liberty and freedom for all humankind. However, the U.S. failed to practice the same principles for those who are not U.S. nationals. Even worse, the U.S. is creating military tribunal for secret trials because there may be inadequate evidence to prove Arabs and Muslims guilty in open courts.

 

May Allah bless us all and purify our hearts from all misunderstanding, malice, hate and anger.