Post office shooting

[Blade3000]

Thats it !!!!! If we can save one life, just one life, we need to ban ferries. My god these things are dangerous and totally capable of taking human life!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_on_...gypt_ship_sinks

 

 

Yes we must give up our rights to not be oppressed by dictatorial monarchies and ban ferries or guns or knives or swimming pools......

 

All the intellectual dribble in this thread can not fight the simple fact that no matter what you say or what you think,

 

People die, get over it!

 

It is never a reason to give up a right that you possess

 

glock21

[HaVoC]

the reason I say it has no other pupose is it doesnt, Things like bolt action rifles I think would be fine to own because they are used for hunting and arnt easly used in crims. but something like the wepon she used is never bought for anything but self defence or murder in mind. Bolth of these include killing. I guess Im not the best at proving my point, and your right I need to back myself up, but really, there is no need to neg rep me people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hate to dig up a post from page 3, but I must honestly say this has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read anywhere.

 

I genuinely mean that.

 

Let's take it bit-by-bit...

 

the reason I say it has no other pupose is it doesnt, Things like bolt action rifles I think would be fine to own because they are used for hunting and arnt easly used in crims.

So the 'Washington Snipers' used a handgun, then? And what about that guy who, some years ago, went up to the top of that tower and blew multiple people away. JFK, killed by a handgun? No, obviously not. That's absolute rubbish - it might have been harder for this deranged woman to get a rifle into the Post Office, but it'd do just as much (if not more) damage.

 

Saying that bolt-actions are safe but handguns are not is MORONIC. Sorry, but it is.

 

but something like the wepon she used is never bought for anything but self defence or murder in mind.

Practical Pistol shooting, anyone? I believe some people enjoy the challenge of hunting with pistols, too.

 

Are you seriously saying that all IPSC shooters are murderers, or insecure middle-aged women buying it as a rape deterrent?

 

Bolth of these include killing.

NEWSFLASH: Murder involves killing!

 

Self-defence includes killing? If you're carrying ANYTHING to deliberately kill an attacker, then you shouldn't be on the streets. The point of self-defence, from Krav Maga, to knives, to a baseball bat packed with lead shot, to a handgun, is to give yourself a means of defending yourself with reasonable force, and to give yourself a means of escape.

 

If you set out to deliberately kill someone who attacks you, then you're worse than the attacker - you have a murderer's mentality. The general point of carrying a concealed handgun is either as a deterrent (you get attacked, out comes the gun, the attacker flees), or for a wounding shot (you get attacked, out comes the gun, the attack continues, you shoot the attacker in the foot, the attacker flees/you flee).

 

In unfortunate cases (usually), the attacker might be killed. But that's NOT the idea.

[doc_newstead]

Hang the bastards.

[selfexiled]

You know what's eerie, I think I live near to kickassspartan now...(cough UCSB student cough)

Anyways, why do people have be so selfish, killing people and such.

The postage halt means I won't get my Netflix anytime soon.

 

FYI Havoc, the washington snipers used a Bushmaster .223, hardly a Bolt action, more of what you would call a CAR-15 (civilian m-16)

 

As for some reactions on the forum...Arming people won't stop violent crime, but taking all their guns away won't stop it either.

Let's clear up some issues.

FACT: Responsible Citizens are not the leading violent criminals.

FACT: Restrictions on Firearms don't work...There's a HUGE blackmarket for guns in the USA. In fact I could probably acquire a gun if I so wanted right now after editing this post...illegally of course.

FACT: Areas of high gun ownership DO NOT HAVE LOW CRIME DUE TO GUN OWNERSHIP. These areas tend to also be places where folks are tightknit take LAW and ORDER VERY SERIOUSLY and thus their police are VERY WELL FUNDED. When people bring that statistic up it is a causation problem. Remember that most violent crime is committed on home turf where the criminal is most comfortable, if you know there's cops, you don't committ crime. For those of you that disagree look up John.R Lott, he's the one that advocates "more guns, less crime" you'll find that his results have never been replicated by anyone with out a hidden agenda.

 

FACT: GUNS DO NOT cause crime: look at the Swiss example, every household is armed, and the country does not have a significant amount of violent crime.

FACT: Crime is socially/economically motivated.

 

I won't outright say I'm pro gun...even though I'm spewing out facts that somewhat support pro gun ideas. I think the issue isn't guns in the US...it's people in the US...

[hivemind]

FACT: Areas of high gun ownership DO NOT HAVE LOW CRIME DUE TO GUN OWNERSHIP.  These areas tend to also be places where folks are tightknit take LAW and ORDER VERY SERIOUSLY and thus their police are VERY WELL FUNDED.  When people bring that statistic up it is a causation problem.  Remember that most violent crime is committed on home turf where the criminal is most comfortable, if you know there's cops, you don't committ crime.  For those of you that disagree look up John.R Lott, he's the one that advocates "more guns, less crime" you'll find that his results have never been replicated by anyone with out a hidden agenda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um... Kennesaw, Georgia.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/cr...te_plummets.htm

[Blade3000]

UM... New Hampshire and Vermont.

 

Very high gun ownership rate, very very low crime rates.

 

New York and L A private handgun ownership nearly banned, highest crime rates.

 

glock21

 

Um... Kennesaw, Georgia.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/cr...te_plummets.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[rizzo]

People die, get over it!

 

It is never a reason to give up a right that you possess

 

glock21

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Okay, if I killed your brother I doubt you'd say 'heh, people die, get over it!'

[Sledge]

If you killed my brother, I'd be bloody amazed.

 

[rizzo]

[Sledge]

UNLESS: I was one of twins, and you travelled back in time to kill my twin brother before we were born! You ######!

 

[HaVoC]

Okay, if I killed your brother I doubt you'd say 'heh, people die, get over it!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Emotional blackmail, surely?

[Connery]

Okay, if I killed your brother I doubt you'd say 'heh, people die, get over it!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If I had a brother, I'd give you a tenner. And a pint.

[Smoker]

Conversely, countries where guns are legal don't have such a high crime rate as America- go watch Bowling for Columbine for some figures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Please don't confuse Michael Moore's lies to promote his own agenda as actual figures.

 

I think the issue isn't guns in the US...it's people in the US...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's the fact Jack!

[Hissing_Sid]

Thats it !!!!! If we can save one life, just one life, we need to ban ferries. My god these things are dangerous and totally capable of taking human life!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_on_...gypt_ship_sinks

Yes we must give up our rights to not be oppressed by dictatorial monarchies and ban ferries or guns or knives or swimming pools......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erm, you don't quite get it do you?

 

It's not a case of simply banning things that are potentially lethal.

 

When you get on a ferry you're gambling that it's not gonna sink. It's you that's making that risk assesment and then it's you who act based on it and you who suffer the consequences as a result of any accident.

 

With guns, it's other people, who might have nothing to do with guns - hate them in fact, who are dying as a result of your "right" to own them.

 

Can you see the difference? Probably not.

 

By way of metaphor it'd be like if we, in the UK were living in a utopian society powered by nuclear energy and we dumped all our radioactive waste in the usa.

There'd be loads of yanks dying of radiation poisoning so that we Brits could carry on living comfortably.

 

Would you be happy with that? I doubt it.

 

Anyway, that's all probably too much intellectual mumbo-jumbo for you. Probably best if you go out and take a car apart in your front yard or go and shoot something.

 

[edit]

Also, I'm wondering why a guy called Blade3000 signs his name "Glock21" at the bottom of every post?

[Desolation mkII]

FACT: GUNS DO NOT cause crime: look at the Swiss example, every household is armed, and the country does not have a significant amount of violent crime.

FACT: Crime is socially/economically motivated.

 

I won't outright say I'm pro gun...even though I'm spewing out facts that somewhat support pro gun ideas.  I think the issue isn't guns in the US...it's people in the US...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Erm, thats actualy a common misconception. Switzerland has one of the highest (if not the highest) gun crime rates in europe.

[doc_newstead]

Yes, clearly...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

 

Here are the figures: The Swiss Federal Police Office reports that in 1997 there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country. Some 91 of these 189 murders and attempts involved firearms. With its population of seven million (including 1.2 million foreigners), Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. There were 2,498 robberies (and attempted robberies), of which 546 involved firearms, resulting in a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000. Almost half of these crimes were committed by non-resident foreigners, whom locals call "criminal tourists."

[hivemind]

Erm, thats actualy a common misconception. Switzerland has one of the highest (if not the highest) gun crime rates in europe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need to support that tripe. Everything I've ever read touts Switzerland as a model of an armed and polite society with an astonishingly low violent crime rate.

[Sledge]

One thing Sid: using the same argument, will you be giving up your car?

 

[PariahWolf]

You need to support that tripe. Everything I've ever read touts Switzerland as a model of an armed and polite society with an astonishingly low violent crime rate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

“London has more theft than New York City and a rate of burglary 57% higher.  But the robbery rate in London is less than one-fifth of the robbery rate in NYC and the homicide rate in London is less than one-tenth the NYC figure”.

 

This suggests a clear connection between the availability of firearms and the rate of firearms crime – a fact which comes as no surprise to most of us but which is uncomfortable for the shooting fraternity. They respond by asserting that the problem is the prevalence of illegal weapons not legal ones.

 

Here the example of Switzerland is often cited. Switzerland has high levels of legal gun ownership but low levels of crime. However, in a ground-breaking study in 1993, Professor Martin Killias of the University of Lausanne pointed out that although crime in general may be lower in Switzerland, gun homicides were almost six times higher than in the UK and gun suicides were 15 times higher. Since the correlation holds for other countries he studied, the connection between levels of legal gun ownership and gun violence is manifest.

 

That good for you?

[hivemind]

One study from an anti-gun group?

 

Hardly. Find an objective source.

[PariahWolf]

Scroll down to the table...

 

There stats right from an international group that is not anti-gun, try as hard as you like you can't argue agianst facts.

 

So from all examples of high amount of guns in countries we see that GUN CRIME goes up.

[HaVoC]

 

You, an airsofter, have chosen to go to the Gun Control Network's website, and use their information under the pretence that it is accurate and unbiased.

 

WOW.

 

One study. Oh great.

 

Also...

 

However, in a ground-breaking study in 1993, Professor Martin Killias of the University of Lausanne pointed out that although crime in general may be lower in Switzerland, gun homicides were almost six times higher than in the UK and gun suicides were 15 times higher.

I'd be interested to see if they mis-quoted that. I bet they did.

 

I bet it was originally talking about proportionality. You can twist figures and stats any way you want to with very little skill indeed.

 

For example, if I said "The rate of toe cancer in people who eat Altoids is 20% higher than in those who only eat broccoli", you'd think "OH MY!". But if the rate of toe cancer in people who only eat brocolli is 1 in 69,000,000,000 then 20% of that is almost meaningless.

 

Frankly, I'd bet that quote was entirely, well, misquoted. Without seeing the entire report they're talking about, that information is about as useful as an *albartroth* on my elbow.

 

Oh, and also, I bet I could find 'scientific data' to back up my theory about toe cancer in Altoid consumers, too. Where there's a will, there's a way, and all that jazz.

 

Frankly, there are very few things that annoy me more than dangerous assumptions and stat-spouting by people who know very little on the subject.

[Hells_Nightwatchman]

Incidents in un-named womens mag he mrs reads (just one issue)

 

Escape From Dr Death. evil dr hunts down girl, raped her, beats her half to death gets jailed....

 

Raped on my Birthday. needs no explination

 

Murdered for loving too much. guy gets stabbed for falling in love with a girl

 

I Held my sons head on. friend of family semi decapitates teen with samuri sword accidentaly

 

and the headline????

 

big bold letters on the front... MY 14YR OLD SON IN GUN RAMPAGE, boy gets air pistol and ends up being arrested for shooting at his mates in the street.

 

 

now what the kid did was wrong, and bad, and he shouldn't have had the gun if he was that irresponsible... yet he made the headline above murdering doctors, mad rapists and samuri sword swinging nut jobs, just goes to show guns sell, they instil fear, and the biggest crime i saw was the fact i picked up the mag off the coffee table after reading the headline, people payed money for that mag, being duped into buying it because guns were mentioned, possible interesting read, the media hype it all too much and everyone suffers.

 

as far as this woman who shot her ex-collegues, im shocked at that,

 

firstly because you never know, even the nicest person has the capability of doing that in the right mental state, give ghandi a machetti and mess with his head and...killer,

 

secondly, a news story that claimed gun and meant gun rather than airsoft toy/air pistol/chair leg/lighter/yorkshire terrier...

 

and thirdly, because a WOMAN shot those people, i've never met a woman with THAT good aim? how many mags did she get through?*

 

well hats my 2cents

 

 

 

*that was meant in good jest btw, any women offended by that please feel free to mock my manhood...

[Smoker]

Scroll down to the table...

 

There stats right from an international group that is not anti-gun, try as hard as you like you can't argue agianst facts.

 

So from all examples of high amount of guns in countries we see that GUN CRIME goes up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Of course in countries with guns crimes commited with guns are going to be higher.

 

Why, You may ask?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BECAUSE THEY HAVE GUNS!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Violence will exist even without guns. I know, it's a shocker.

 

Why anti-gun people use the arguement is beyond me.

 

And why pro-gun people deny it is even stranger.

 

The fact is crimes are commited by criminals, regardless of guns. Some crime could be prevented if others had guns. While in other crimes it wouldn't matter in the slightest.

 

Maybe it would have mattered in the case above or maybe it wouldn't have, who can say. How did she get her gun? If she bought it illegally then no gun law would have stoppped it. If she did buy it legally what in the system broke down to let a deranged person obtain a gun? These are the questions that should be asked.

 

Not wether we should have guns or not, for that is an unanswerable question.

Once you have no means to protect your self you'd be begging for one. But if you never need one why should there be a need for them? Pretty stupid to argue over it if yuo ask me, which of course you didn't but that's what off topic is for I guess.

[PariahWolf]

<snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did not ask you,I don't care. I have not entered this debate, someone asked for evidence of what someone else said and I provided 2 links that backed them up, god don't take this so seriously.

 

The point of that argument is very simple however you have missed it, gun are very efficient at killing people, when more people have them more people die because of them. So according to that less guns means less people getting shot, which is of course a good idea, however it may not work out like that. I, myself, am pro-gun as long as only people who can be trusted with them get them. Obviously there was a flaw in the system this time, getting a gun should be made harder, as long as only those responsible enough to use them get them, then I am very pro-gun.