The Israel Crisis

[expvideo]

Then it must be true 

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Truth has no place in debate. Only sources.

[doc_newstead]

Velly good, Glasshopper.

[Xaccers]

I sypathize with the Lebanese people and the Hezbollah organization that is unfairly being accused of being terrorists.

 

Unfairly?

Tell me, what in your opinion constitutes being a terrorist?

Apparently deliberately targetting civilians with warheads carrying 14Kg of ball bearings (ever seen Swordfish?) or blowing up a bus of civilians doesn't equal terrorism to you.

Perhaps you feel they're "freedom fighters" and you think freedom fighters should be able to target civilians?

Do you consider the 9/11 terrorists weren't actually terrorists? After all, they were fighting for the "freedom" of the Arabian peninsula to be rid of non-muslims.

 

Again, I support the Palestinian people, not Hamas or the PA.  I support the people that suffer.  I never said Hamas was a good group of people, I was just explaining what a typical "terrorist"'s story would be, so that maybe some people in this debate would realize that they aren't mindless sub-humans that like to kill women and children, but that they are put under so much physical, emotional and psychological stress, that eventually any human would pick up a rifle or a stone and try to fight an impossibly over-powering army.  They aren't monsters.  They are an oppressed people caught in the pressure of being helpless.  It's just human nature to fight back.

 

I'm glad you mentioned that it is human nature to fight back, considering that is what Israel are doing.

 

Incidently, when Ben Gurion declaired the independance of Israel, he did so in line with the UN agreed borders, giving the non-jewish palestinians (remember, before that day everyone in that area were palestinians under the British LoN mandate which charge Britian with the task of creating a homeland for the Jews) the best land as the UN plan was drawn up on malaria lines, giving the Jews the worst land and the non-jews the best.

Unfortunately, Israel's neighbours didn't like the idea, so called for the arabs to "push the jews into the sea" in return for their land, and over the radio spread lies that the Jews were coming to rape the women and kill the men.

This was to try and create an uprising against the Jews, but it backfired, and the arabs fled into the neighbouring countries where they were forced into dispicable refrugee camps, treated like dirt, and used as pawns in a war with Israel.

Israel defeated the unprovoked attack and made the understandable mistake of refusing to allow the arabs to return (after all, they'd sided against Israel with it's enemies).

During the many other wars started by Isreal's neighbours, Jordan captured a large area of Israel (did you know that?) but in the next war, Israel captured it back.

Incidently, incase anyone believed that the Jews got the largest part of Palestine, please don't forget to take into account Jordan (aka Transjordan, aka Palestine east of the river Jordan).

[expvideo]

When Hezbollah kills civilians it's "terrorism", but when Israel does it ten fold it's "the nature of war"? Sounds like a load of ###### to me.

[Xaccers]

When Hezbollah kills civilians it's "terrorism", but when Israel does it ten fold it's "the nature of war"?  Sounds like a load of ###### to me.

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That's because you can't see the world is not black and white, but shades of grey.

[expvideo]

That's because you can't see the world is not black and white, but shades of grey.

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Finally something we agree on.

 

Can we at least agree that Hezbollah is not the ultimate evil and that Israel is not the ultimate good? Perhaps one side is on the darker side of the grey, but as you said, it's not just black and white.

[Xaccers]

Finally something we agree on. 

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You agree that you see the world in black and white and not shades of grey?

 

Well, that explains why you can't see a difference between civilians being deliberately targetted and killed, and civilians being killed during an attack on a military target.

[expvideo]

You agree that you see the world in black and white and not shades of grey?

 

Well, that explains why you can't see a difference between civilians being deliberately targetted and killed, and civilians being killed during an attack on a military target.

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Thank you so much for cleverly twisting my words.

 

No. Dead civilians are dead civilians. and when did hospitals, schools, apartment buildings and UN posts become military targets?

 

You know what.. never mind. If you're going to twist my words on what was intended to be a middle-ground (which is more than I've offered anyone else in this debate) then I'm done talking to you.

[Xaccers]

Thank you so much for cleverly twisting my words.

 

No.  Dead civilians are dead civilians.  and when did hospitals, schools, apartment buildings and UN posts become military targets?

 

You know what.. never mind.  If you're going to twist my words on what was intended to be a middle-ground (which is more than I've offered anyone else in this debate) then I'm done talking to you.

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You know, you could be a Hezbollah representative if you wanted to.

 

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, why don't they move up into the mountains away from civilian areas?

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, why are they using apartment blocks, hospitals, schools etc as launching grounds?

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, then why are they firing rockets at civilian towns and cities?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should allow the rockets to continue to kill Israelis if the rockets are being fired from civilian areas?

I know you suggested Israel send in troops instead (sorry, not offence meant but that is a laughable suggestion), but that doesn't change the fact that their targets are in civilian areas and civilians will get killed, and more importantly, doesn't change that if Israel invades it will give Syria an excuse to reinvade Lebanon which is why all this was started in the first place.

[expvideo]

Sorry, I don't approve of your debate tactics, so I'm not talking to you about this anymore.

[Xaccers]

Sorry, I don't approve of your debate tactics, so I'm not talking to you about this anymore.

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Ah valid points raised by me, difficult for you to answer and still keep your idea that Hezbollah are "unfairly" labeled terrorists, so you leave.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

I've never met anyone who disapproved of questions being asked in a debate before.

[expvideo]

I disapprove of you twisting my words. I wasn't rude to you; I don't see why you felt it neccessary to condiscend to me.

[Xaccers]

I disapprove of you twisting my words.  I wasn't rude to you; I don't see why you felt it neccessary to condiscend to me.

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did you or did you not state that you agreed with me when I said you can't see that that the world isn't black and white?

 

are you saying that you can see the difference between civilians deliberately killed, and civilians killed because of their proximity to a legitimate target?

 

did you or did you not try and make out that Israel were thoughtlessly attacking schools, hospitals, apartment buildings, UN installations whilst failing to mention that the IDF were returning fire against Hezbollah operatives?

[expvideo]

*yawn*

 

When you're rude to people, they won't want to talk to you. When you're done being condiscending perhaps we can continue. I'll be waiting.

[Xaccers]

*yawn*

 

When you're rude to people, they won't want to talk to you.  When you're done being condiscending perhaps we can continue.  I'll be waiting.

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If you are unable to debate, then that's fine by me.

I've raised valid points, you appear unwilling to answer them, given your previous posts, it leaves us to suppose as to why.

Like I said, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[expvideo]

I never said I was leaving. And assuming that I can't argue with your statements is not only rediculous it's also further condiscending. So... I continue my unwillingness to debate with you.

[Tunershark]

 

Lol, i didnt make this one

[mig_eater]

One thing is apparant, none of the Hezbollah shelling is justified and it is ALL targeted against civilians.

as were the israeli's at the begining (until they'd knocked them all out) with their aim, which was to get the civvies p'd off enough that they'd kick hezbollah out. hezbollahs tactics are the same to keep going until the civvies are sick of it and make the offensive unpopular. israel bombed civvie targets (bridges, roads, ports, power plants...ALL are civvie targets, and killed quite a few civvies along with it). there isn't a hell of alot in it hezbollah are also trying to hit (civvie) infrastructure targets in the mix.

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You know, you could be a Hezbollah representative if you wanted to.

 

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, why don't they move up into the mountains away from civilian areas?

Because in part they are defending their homes

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, why are they using apartment blocks, hospitals, schools etc as launching grounds?

i've yet to see proof of this only israeli statements after killing a few dozen people

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, then why are they firing rockets at civilian towns and cities?

see first quote

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should allow the rockets to continue to kill Israelis if the rockets are being fired from civilian areas?

ground forces and MUCH smaller bombs

I know you suggested Israel send in troops instead (sorry, not offence meant but that is a laughable suggestion), but that doesn't change the fact that their targets are in civilian areas and civilians will get killed, and more importantly, doesn't change that if Israel invades it will give Syria an excuse to reinvade Lebanon which is why all this was started in the first place.

syria wouldn't invade because the yank's wouldn't like it and they would get their *albartroth* handed to them. ground forces should be more selective than an airstrike, unless you are conceding that the IDF aren't well trained (which is patently untrue). for the record they have a ground offensive in south lebanon just not a well targeted one, bin jebal. the tactic seems to be blitz ahead of the ground forces and then send them in rather defeating the purpose

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cheers

Mig

[Md0ggyd0g]

Anyone read the news lately? 54 (may be more as time goes on) people were killed in an Israeli airstrike, most were children.

 

Remind me why the US supports the state of Israel?

[Tunershark]

Remind me why the US supports the state of Israel?

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dont forget israel gives the U.S 2$ billion a year with contracts from COLT, Lockheed-Martin, Boieng, Northrop Grunman, McDonnell Douglas and Many others. where would all these corporations be without israel?

[mig_eater]

dont forget israel gives the U.S 2$ billion a year with contracts from COLT, Lockheed-Martin, Boieng, Northrop Grunman, McDonnell Douglas and Many others. where would all these corporations be without israel?

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flogging it to anyone else with the cash?

[Smoker]

While I'm not your intended target I'll respond to theses.

 

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, why don't they move up into the mountains away from civilian areas?

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Because it would be a stupid mistake to move where you could be easily targeted by the latest in advanced weaponary. By polacing themselves in a populated area it makes it harder to target them. This also aids there cause as the Israeli's have proven time and again that they don't care about civilian causlities as long as they are not Israeli citizens.

 

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, why are they using apartment blocks, hospitals, schools etc as launching grounds?

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They have to live, get treated for medical problems and go to school some where. The Israelis aren't attacking the places where they were attacked from they are attacking deeper in Lebanon than that.

 

If hezbollah wanted to prevent the loss of civilian lives, then why are they firing rockets at civilian towns and cities?

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They are firing rockets into occupied territory. Maybe, just maybe if the Israels had been in out of that area and back where they should be according to the 1948 resolution this wouldn't have happened at all.

[Xaccers]

While I'm not your intended target I'll respond to theses.

Because it would be a stupid mistake to move where you could be easily targeted by the latest in advanced weaponary. By polacing themselves in a populated area it makes it harder to target them. This also aids there cause as the Israeli's have proven time and again that they don't care about civilian causlities as long as they are not Israeli citizens.

 

so, do you believe that Israel should allow it's civilians to die rather than attack Hezbollah targets and risk the lives of Lebanese who Hezbollah have deliberately situated themselves nearby?

 

They have to live, get treated for medical problems and go to school some where. The Israelis aren't attacking the places where they were attacked from they are attacking deeper in Lebanon than that.

 

They're attacking Hezbollah offices, radio stations and other targets much further in to Lebanon than the missiles.

 

They are firing rockets into occupied territory. Maybe, just maybe if the Israels had been in out of that area and back where they should be according to the 1948 resolution this wouldn't have happened at all.

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Really?

Haifa occupied?

Naharyya occupied?

Or have you heard that Hezbollah now have rockets which can reach Jenin that no one else knows about?

Interesting that you bring up 1948, because if Jordan hadn't invaded the area allotted to the Palestinians by the UN, 780,000 Palestinians wouldn't have become refrugees.

[Lanesracra]

Hypothetical situation...

 

Huge terrorist group situates themself in Birmingham, one or two of them snake into political positions. These terrorists capture some American troops in combat, begin bombing the US from spots in the UK, and the US decides to bomb the *fruitcage* out of Birmingham. Chavs aside, would you be alright with the killing of the innocents, as opposed to some sort of special operation?

[Smoker]

so, do you believe that Israel should allow it's civilians to die rather than attack

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I believe any perosn under attack should defend themselves. And any country whos people are under attack should defend them.

 

Hezbollah targets and risk the lives of Lebanese who Hezbollah have deliberately situated themselves nearby?

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The Israeli attacks on hospitals and the U.N. compound can not be defined as defensive attacks no matter where Hezbollah places themselves. it is Israel lack of concern of none military assets that concern me most. They have and use almost the exact same weapons systems that the U.S. does and we know for a fact that the cruise missles can be driven through doors so why all the unneccesary casulities?

 

Really?

Haifa occupied?

Naharyya occupied?

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"On 30 December, 1947 members of the militant Irgun hurled two bombs into a crowd of Arabs who were waiting for construction jobs outside the gates of the Consolidated Refineries in Haifa, killing 6 and injuring 42, whereupon 2,000 Arab employees rioted and killed 39 Jewish employees in what has become known as the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre. As the major industrial and oil refinery port in the Palestine, Jewish forces deemed control of Haifa, a critical objective in the ensuing 1948 Arab-Israeli War. It was captured on April 23rd, 1948 by a force of 5,000 Israeli soldiers led by the Carmeli Brigade. The campaign resulted in Israeli control over the area and the flight of about 80,000 Palestinian Arabs from Haifa District. "

 

Settlements are not towns

 

Or have you heard that Hezbollah now have rockets which can reach Jenin that no one else knows about?

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No haven't heard this. Look I am not justifying any of Hezbollahs actions. I have said before I don't agree with them or what they believe in.

 

Interesting that you bring up 1948, because if Jordan hadn't invaded the area allotted to the Palestinians by the UN, 780,000 Palestinians wouldn't have become refrugees.

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You got that right and if Israel had moved back out of the occupied territory they could leave those same refugee camps today.

 

*edited- because I forgot to include a quote.