The Israel Crisis

[Jagdraben]

Let's just bump the bomb target a few miles to the left...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bump it further south, too. Need to get rid of Somalian warlords.

[mig_eater]

meh i'm in favour of towing the Uk to somewhere near Fiji (i'm feeling generous new zealand can come too) installing the mother of all mine fields 100miles off shore and letting the rest of the world get on with it. then when their done i'll make a killing in the glass industry

 

Cheers

Mig

[WeirdoTransvestite]

That's the way to do it! Glass the whole planet, turn the world into a Mad Max movie.

[Smoker]

So the way Hamas and Hezbollah wage war is OK, because it's war, but it's not OK for Israel to fight back? Your logic is flawed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said it was "ok".

I only said it is an "unfortunate side effect" there is no flaw in that logic.

 

Just so there is no confusion I do not condone or approve of Hamas or Hezbollah at all. And find the attacks by them to be unspeakable acts of cowardice.

 

The rightful owners fled and, in all likelihood, don't have any proof that they ever owned the land to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm, you must not have read enough about the matter as a whole. The Israeli Army has since 1948 been forcing peaceful Palestine farmers off the land that has been thiers for generations so that Israeli settlers could take over the land. This is a fact.

 

The UN passes resolutions, not laws. It has no means of enforcing these resolutions and compliance is entirely voluntary. That is to say, that international law is not binding to any nation. There is no punishment, no recourse, for any violation of so-called international law. That is why, among other reasons, international law, as an institution, is broken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So by your logic since it was a U.N. resolution that gave Israel the land in the first place the land doesn't belong to anyone. Thats means to the winners go the spoils. Hell, I think the Canadians ought to go over there and take it since it's free for the taking. Shoot they could use some place to vacation that's not cold.

Yea, good logic there.

 

In any case, international law is an excuse invented by the winners for hanging the losers, to misquote Benjamin Franklin. It has only been effectively used in the aftermath of World War II, and even then, only against the leaders of the nations on the losing side. No one, no matter how guilty, was tried for war crimes who stood on the winning side of the fence.

 

Since then, it has only been used ineffectively, and only when wealthy white Europeans in expensive suits decide that they don't like someone else. Example: Slobadon Malosevic, who died before his trial was close to being over, many years after having been turned over by Serbia.

 

And, while the UN worries about whether or not some people are living on land they are not supposed to, hundreds of thousands are murdered in Africa in what most people would call genocide, but the UN does not. The promise at Nuremburg rings hollow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I will agree that the U.N. is powerless by default. And that international is lacking in weight.

Does this mean we simply ignore it and let it faulter? Or should we stand behind it and give it weight?

 

To qoute Old Ben- "Anger is never without Reason, but seldom with a good One."

[Jagdraben]

"Force shites on Reason's back."

 

-Benjamin Franklin.

[expvideo]

If Lebanon's army cannot stand against Hezbollah, what chance do you think that they think that they stand against the IDF?

 

If your answer is, "Not much" then you're half-way to knowing why Lebanon's army won't attack Israel's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's because Lebanon supports Hezbollah. Hezbollah is like the Red Cross over there. They fund the rebuilding of Lebanon and their sole mission is to defend Lebanon from Israeli occupation (which is a constant problem in Lebanon)

 

And if you doubt the Israeli intention of killing civilians... Let's not forget that in 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon, they managed to kill 17,000 civilians.

 

Israel like to ethnically-cleanse places, as proven in Palestine.

 

Do some research. You really have to dig to find the *beep*, since Israel has an entire government agency dedicated to creating positive PR in the news, but there is stuff out there.

 

Israel is not defending themselves. They use the word "defense" way too much to get the sympathy of the western world.

 

And let's not forget that Israel has been in Palestine for 35 years after the UN told them to leave. They are unlawfully occupying a territory. They are also collonializing that territory. That is another violation of international law.

 

What we can discern from this is that ISRAEL DOESN'T CARE ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW. The UN should sanction them.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

 

If you don't think I have evidence to back that up, watch the video.

[Md0ggyd0g]

The perfect plan:

Step 1. Hyper-arm the entire region

2. Nuke borders of all countries, take out nuclear abilities of all countries

3. Let them kill eachother

4. Pump the oil wells dry

 

Or the US and UK should just build inverted Berlin Walls...

[Munitions Man]

but I like matzah bread and goat meat

 

no seriously, and I'd miss their accents

 

and what about tech support!

[Jagdraben]

That's because Lebanon supports Hezbollah.  Hezbollah is like the Red Cross over there.  They fund the rebuilding of Lebanon and their sole mission is to defend Lebanon from Israeli occupation (which is a constant problem in Lebanon)

 

No, the Red Crescent is like the Red Cross over there.

 

Hezbollah is like the Branch-Davidians.

 

And if you doubt the Israeli intention of killing civilians... Let's not forget that in 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon, they managed to kill 17,000 civilians.

 

And I'm sure that if you were engaged in heavy day-in, day-out fighting in an urban area, your soldiers would be killing much fewer civilians.

 

I doubt it.

 

Israel like to ethnically-cleanse places, as proven in Palestine.

 

Bullshite.

 

Do some research.  You really have to dig to find the *beep*, since Israel has an entire government agency dedicated to creating positive PR in the news, but there is stuff out there.

 

I do research.

 

Maybe you also believe that the back of the One Dollar Bill holds the secret to the Free Mason's intended destiny for America and the world.

 

Israel is not defending themselves.  They use the word "defense" way too much to get the sympathy of the western world.

 

The people who appear too often to be defending themselves are the Arabs. Nevermind the fact that they were the ones who were shelling Israel day-in and day-out.

 

And let's not forget that Israel has been in Palestine for 35 years after the UN told them to leave.  They are unlawfully occupying a territory.  They are also collonializing that territory.  That is another violation of international law.

 

International law, as I have mentioned, is a unicorn.

 

What we can discern from this is that ISRAEL DOESN'T CARE ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW.  The UN should sanction them.

 

No nation cares about international law, except when it serves their interests.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

 

If you don't think I have evidence to back that up, watch the video.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Go talk to the Russians.

 

They bomb the snot out of Chechan civies all the time.

 

The difference between Chechnya and Palestine: The Israelis have a quasi-free press and let the press in. Russia doesn't allow the press in. Because of that, the Israelis have to actually try to be humanitarian. While there are no videos of alleged Israeli atrocities, despite a free and open press, there are videos of Russian atrocities in Chechnya. Which were made by Chechan rebels who had captured a digital camera off of a Russian soldier.

 

The Israelis don't go out of their way to attack civilians, Hezbollah and Hamas do.

The Israelis don't execute any but the smallest number of prisoners, Hezbollah and Hamas execute nearly all of their prisoners.

 

I don't understand how you can defend the scum of the earth. Are you going to defend Hitler next? Say that he wasn't actually attacking France or Poland, he was only acting out of defense? Or will you choose Stalin? When he crushed the democratic governments of Eastern Europe and sent tanks in to deal with civil unrest?

 

EDIT: Typo.

[Smoker]

That's because Lebanon supports Hezbollah.  Hezbollah is like the Red Cross over there.  They fund the rebuilding of Lebanon and their sole mission is to defend Lebanon from Israeli occupation (which is a constant problem in Lebanon)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm. I'm going to have to differ with you here. Hezbollah is nothing like the Red Cross. Their express intent and main goal is to destroy Israel and kill all jews. So they got that going against they whole Red Cross thing about helping every living person on the face of the planet.

 

And if you doubt the Israeli intention of killing civilians... Let's not forget that in 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon, they managed to kill 17,000 civilians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think they intentional go about planning to kill civilians I just think they don't care as long as they aren't Israeli citizens.

 

Israel like to ethnically-cleanse places, as proven in Palestine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd like to see proof of this. They mostly just surround the area and force the inhabitants off then bulldoze their houses down so they can't comeback easily.

 

And let's not forget that Israel has been in Palestine for 35 years after the UN told them to leave.  They are unlawfully occupying a territory.  They are also collonializing that territory.  That is another violation of international law.

 

What we can discern from this is that ISRAEL DOESN'T CARE ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW.  The UN should sanction them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sanctions won't happen as my very own government will veto anything of the sort as it has repeatedly done in the past.

 

It sure would be nice if we quit sending them money until they stopped these illegal activitys. It would also help if we stopped all money transfers from the U.S. civilian population to them or any of their companies. They'd pull back then for sure.

 

*Edited for grammar. Twice, stupid spell check.

[Jagdraben]

He's quoting the propaganda video he posted. One of the 'experts' refers to the settlements as being an act of ethnic cleansing.

 

Certainly a farcry from the ethnic cleansing of the Balkans, where people were murdered left and right by government militias, where entire villages were slaughtered and then burned to the ground.

 

EDIT: And I've seen half of that video. Frankly, I feel like I'm listening to Anne Coulter. In otherwords, it's full of ###### and is nothing but one-sided propaganda.

 

EDIT: The only good part, and actually pretty good, are the last ten minutes of that video. People doing things that are constructive! Shock! I don't see Hezbollah or Hamas helping to build houses or members refusing to fight in Israel.

[expvideo]

I'm really sick of talking to brainwashed pro-israelis that refuse to believe a realistic video right in front of their eyes.

 

Watch the video. And stop comparing resistance movements to Hitler. I think "sending tanks in to stop the civil unrest" as you said, sounds a LOT more like Israel.

 

The Palestinians are not brainless subhumans that like watching things die. They are a very oppressed people that are fighting for their freedom.

 

Imagine you are a palestinian boy. half of your brothers have been shelled and killed by the israelis. You are allowed running water once a week, while the jewish-only houses up the street have green lawns and pools. Curfew keeps you indoors LITERALLY half of the year, even restricting you from going to school or the doctor's office, unless you are willing to be shot at for going outside. Your friends are all unemployed and poor. Going across town used to take ten minutes, but now you are frisked and have to go through checkpoints all the time, making your trip take 2 hours or more. Your are hungry, smelly, dehydrated, and traumatized. Today you were brutally beaten for trying to argue with the soldiers that are bulldozing your house because you don't have a building permit, something basically impossible for an arab to get. Now you are homeless.

 

Does that sound like a good reason to fight? It does to me. And this happens every day. This is the typical story of any palestinian boy.

 

And you call them terrorists. It makes me sick.

[Jagdraben]

I'm really sick of talking to brainwashed pro-israelis that refuse to believe a realistic video right in front of their eyes.

 

I'm not brain-washed. I'm reacting to your brain-washing. Your blind anti-Israeli sentiments.

 

Watch the video.  And stop comparing resistance movements to Hitler.  I think "sending tanks in to stop the civil unrest" as you said, sounds a LOT more like Israel.

 

I did watch it. Durr.

 

The Palestinians are not brainless subhumans that like watching things die.  They are a very oppressed people that are fighting for their freedom.

 

I never said that.

 

Imagine you are a palestinian boy.  half of your brothers have been shelled and killed by the israelis.  You are allowed running water once a week, while the jewish-only houses up the street have green lawns and pools.  Curfew keeps you indoors LITERALLY half of the year, even restricting you from going to school or the doctor's office, unless you are willing to be shot at for going outside.  Your friends are all unemployed and poor.  Going across town used to take ten minutes, but now you are frisked and have to go through checkpoints all the time, making your trip take 2 hours or more.  Your are hungry, smelly, dehydrated, and traumatized.  Today you were brutally beaten for trying to argue with the soldiers that are bulldozing your house because you don't have a building permit, something basically impossible for an arab to get.  Now you are homeless.

 

So I attack the people who are trying to help? I destroy the lives of Israelis to give them more reason to be there? To make those few who have hope for peace turn to cynicism?

 

Does that sound like a good reason to fight?  It does to me.  And this happens every day.  This is the typical story of any palestinian boy.

 

And you call them terrorists.  It makes me sick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's a reason to fight. Fighting is not what Hezbollah or Hamas do. Blowing up buses and night clubs is not fighting. It's murder.

 

Imagine you're an Israeli citizen. You were born into a nation fearing that at any time a rocket might smash into your house, or that Syria and Egypt might decide to launch a suprise attack. You go to school, you oppose your government's occupation of Palestine. And one day one of your best friends is maimed, his family killed, by a suicide bomber. Years later, you're attending college. Your friend from your younger years has long ago committed suicide because he couldn't handle the trauma of living with out his parents, sister, or brother. You're invited to go to a night club to celebrate the end of finals with the rest of your class, but you decide to stay in. The next day, you read in the newspaper that a suicide bomber blew up all of your friends. And now, you're in the IDF, serving your mandatory two years. People who hate your very existance are throwing rocks at your platoon. Several of your men are hit, one is unconscious or dead, and there are many broken and fractured bones. You hear at least one Kalashnikov fire in among the crowd throwing rocks at you, there might be more.

 

What would you do? Hold your fire and let your people die or fight back against those who might murder your people?

 

EDIT: In the hypothetical, I didn't say that the soldier hit by the rock was dead, ergo you may or may not be losing soldiers. But you could very easily start losing a lot if those (or that) AK(s) get any closer.

[Xaccers]

Imagine you are a palestinian boy....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your father needs a heart bypass, but because the PA embezled so much of the aid given to them (so much aid has gone missing, Australia took their donation back), there aren't enough hospitals, but the Israelis give him a free bypass operation and he's doing well. (Israelis don't get free heart bypasses).

Your family has very little money, all 8 of your older brothers are out of work because rather than build a country with the aid the PA was given, they use it to fund suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians despite it being against sharia law (kill only soldiers, not women, the old, the infirm, children or trees), and to line their own pockets.

You used to get food parcels from Israel, but since the intefada it's too dangerous for them to visit. (I've been involved in this)

Your mother was seeing a phsyotherapist to help her get back to work, but again, because of the intefada, the Israeli phsyotherapist is unwilling to visit. (my friend was the physiotherapist, now will no longer go to Jenin)

On the news you see ramshackled houses owned by Palestinians, but they're nothing like the million dollar mansions that the PA leaders live in.

Your own home was built by the Israeli's when Hamas members stormed your parents old house, smashed the wall through to next door so they could move more freely, and destroyed the house's foundations by digging tunnels into it so they could smuggle weapons in to use against the Israeli villages just over the border. Your parents' old home was collapsing around them when the Israeli's came and bulldozed it so that it could no longer be used by Hamas, and moved your parents into their new home. Your grandmother was shot and killed by Hamas when the Israelis helping her out of the old house came under fire.

You're approached by someone from Hamas, he tells you to wear a heavy vest and walk through the checkpoint, then push the button. He tells you your mother will be very proud of you and you will go to heaven. He says you won't have to go to school ever again, and your parents will be rich, if you just push that little button...

[Jagdraben]

Well said, Xaccers. Bloody well said.

[Munitions Man]

Hamas, Hezbollah, islamic jihad, etc. Get funding, support, aid, from the US and Israel. Hamas even gets land from Israel, the Gaza strip. But instead of giving food and water to their citisens or using the money to build hospitals and schools they buy Katushka rockets, AKs, and bomb vests! If they were freedom fighters as they claim to be, then why aren't they supporting their people? I mean, they'd want to free their people from poverty wouldn't they. That money and those recources used to continue the infadata could have been used to help the palestinian and lebanese people. The whole conflict could have been over if Hamas just took what they got and turned it into food and hospitals, rather than continue the bloodshed. If they had just stop the violence then the Israelies would have left them alone and eventually had given them even more land! But the terrorists want nothing but bloodshed. They don't train kids to be suicide bombers so they can help their people progress. They do it to further their wacked out cause, and that is the elimination of all infidels. And they'll have as many innocent people killed as long as they can achieve eternal paradise with their 72 virgins. They could care less if there's a school next to their ammo dump. And the Israelies are just doing whatever they can to stop this teerony and help the Palestinians and Lebanese people live happily and in peace.

[expvideo]

I'm not brain-washed. I'm reacting to your brain-washing. Your blind anti-Israeli sentiments.

I did watch it. Durr.

I never said that.

So I attack the people who are trying to help? I destroy the lives of Israelis to give them more reason to be there? To make those few who have hope for peace turn to cynicism?

It's a reason to fight. Fighting is not what Hezbollah or Hamas do. Blowing up buses and night clubs is not fighting. It's murder.

 

Imagine you're an Israeli citizen. You were born into a nation fearing that at any time a rocket might smash into your house, or that Syria and Egypt might decide to launch a suprise attack. You go to school, you oppose your government's occupation of Palestine. And one day one of your best friends is maimed, his family killed, by a suicide bomber. Years later, you're attending college. Your friend from your younger years has long ago committed suicide because he couldn't handle the trauma of living with out his parents, sister, or brother. You're invited to go to a night club to celebrate the end of finals with the rest of your class, but you decide to stay in. The next day, you read in the newspaper that a suicide bomber blew up all of your friends. And now, you're in the IDF, serving your mandatory two years. People who hate your very existance are throwing rocks at your platoon. Several of your men are hit, one is unconscious or dead, and there are many broken and fractured bones. You hear at least one Kalashnikov fire in among the crowd throwing rocks at you, there might be more.

 

What would you do? Hold your fire and let your people die or fight back against those who might murder your people?

 

EDIT: In the hypothetical, I didn't say that the soldier hit by the rock was dead, ergo you may or may not be losing soldiers. But you could very easily start losing a lot if those (or that) AK(s) get any closer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, since you can't seem to understand that I am NOT anti-Israeli/Anti-jew... I sympathize with the Palestinian people (not Hamas... the people that are killed/injured/lives destroyed by the Israeli occupation... not Hamas or PA), and I sypathize with the Lebanese people and the Hezbollah organization that is unfairly being accused of being terrorists.

 

I am opposed to the Israeli military and government not the people.

 

I feel for the Israeli people that have to suffer for this. I know that life isn't neccessarily easy for them either.

 

And that last little example.... seriously, am I supposed to feel sorry for "that poor heavily armed regiment" that needs to fight for their lives against the civilians with rocks? I'm sorry, but my sympathy just isn't there.

 

Your father needs a heart bypass, but because the PA embezled so much of the aid given to them (so much aid has gone missing, Australia took their donation back), there aren't enough hospitals, but the Israelis give him a free bypass operation and he's doing well. (Israelis don't get free heart bypasses).

Your family has very little money, all 8 of your older brothers are out of work because rather than build a country with the aid the PA was given, they use it to fund suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians despite it being against sharia law (kill only soldiers, not women, the old,  the infirm, children or trees), and to line their own pockets.

You used to get food parcels from Israel, but since the intefada it's too dangerous for them to visit. (I've been involved in this)

Your mother was seeing a phsyotherapist to help her get back to work, but again, because of the intefada, the Israeli phsyotherapist is unwilling to visit. (my friend was the physiotherapist, now will no longer go to Jenin)

On the news you see ramshackled houses owned by Palestinians, but they're nothing like the million dollar mansions that the PA leaders live in.

Your own home was built by the Israeli's when Hamas members stormed your parents old house, smashed the wall through to next door so they could move more freely, and destroyed the house's foundations by digging tunnels into it so they could smuggle weapons in to use against the Israeli villages just over the border. Your parents' old home was collapsing around them when the Israeli's came and bulldozed it so that it could no longer be used by Hamas, and moved your parents into their new home. Your grandmother was shot and killed by Hamas when the Israelis helping her out of the old house came under fire.

You're approached by someone from Hamas, he tells you to wear a heavy vest and walk through the checkpoint, then push the button. He tells you your mother will be very proud of you and you will go to heaven. He says you won't have to go to school ever again, and your parents will be rich, if you just push that little button...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, I support the Palestinian people, not Hamas or the PA. I support the people that suffer. I never said Hamas was a good group of people, I was just explaining what a typical "terrorist"'s story would be, so that maybe some people in this debate would realize that they aren't mindless sub-humans that like to kill women and children, but that they are put under so much physical, emotional and psychological stress, that eventually any human would pick up a rifle or a stone and try to fight an impossibly over-powering army. They aren't monsters. They are an oppressed people caught in the pressure of being helpless. It's just human nature to fight back.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah, islamic jihad, etc. Get funding, support, aid, from the US and Israel. Hamas even gets land from Israel, the Gaza strip. But instead of giving food and water to their citisens or using the money to build hospitals and schools they buy Katushka rockets, AKs, and bomb vests! If they were freedom fighters as they claim to be, then why aren't they supporting their people? I mean, they'd want to free their people from poverty wouldn't they. That money and those recources used to continue the infadata could have been used to help the palestinian and lebanese people. The whole conflict could have been over if Hamas just took what they got and turned it into food and hospitals, rather than continue the bloodshed. If they had just stop the violence then the Israelies would have left them alone and eventually had given them even more land! But the terrorists want nothing but bloodshed. They don't train kids to be suicide bombers so they can help their people progress. They do it to further their wacked out cause, and that is the elimination of all infidels. And they'll have as many innocent people killed as long as they can achieve eternal paradise with their 72 virgins. They could care less if there's a school next to their ammo dump. And the Israelies are just doing whatever they can to stop this teerony and help the Palestinians and Lebanese people live happily and in peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have such a *fruitcage*-ed up world perspective, you know that? Even people that disagree with me would think you are talking out of your *albatross*. You know absolutely nothing about this, obviously.

 

Please stop the axis of evil propaganda speach. I know both sides of this debate have said some bias things, but this is seriously over the top. -1 for saying things that have nothing to do with the current situation, and being extremely racist toward arabs. Hell, even Israel-approved media doesn't go as far as to say *beep* like that. I don't know where you're getting your info, but that statement was just plain dumb.

[Chimpy]

Terrorism is trapping the people you care about in an endless cycle of violence and decline expvideo. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

To continue the 'imagine you are a child' thang:

 

Your mum is a Doctor, your dad an Engineer helping build the infrastructure of the country. You go to school, have more than enough food and live in one of the most up and coming Arab nations. This summer you will go on holiday to visit the holy places in Israel and hopefully meet with the family you met at your beach holiday last year. You have never seen a dead body.

 

I think we can agree this is Palestine if HAMAS et al had stopped fighting a decade ago.

[expvideo]

And shelling an apartment complex (that was being used primarily as an apartment complex), a hospital (primarily used as a hospital), a school (where children learn), and a UN post (I'd bet that's not a weapone cache either)? Is that "defense"?

[Chimpy]

And shelling an apartment complex (that was being used primarily as an apartment complex), a hospital (primarily used as a hospital), a school (where children learn), and a UN post (I'd bet that's not a weapone cache either)?  Is that "defense"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you read my posts you'd see I agree.

 

If it wasn't for Hezbollah they wouldn't be doing that at all. I'm not excusing Israel at all (especially for the bombing of the UN) but it IS the people claiming to fighting for the freedom of their respective countries that are keeping those countries in a *beep* state.

 

EDIT: First line was a bit ambiguous. I agree with your point that some of the bombing is unwarranted or extreme.

[expvideo]

If you read my posts you'd see I agree.

 

If it wasn't for Hezbollah they wouldn't be doing that at all. I'm not excusing Israel at all (especially for the bombing of the UN) but it IS the people claiming to fighting for the freedom of their respective countries that are keeping those countries in a *beep* state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that is in all fairness what Hezbollah is doing. Whether you approve of their tactics or not, they aren't trying to destroy Israel, they are trying to defend Lebanon. I'm not saying they are 100% in the right here, but they are a fundamental group in nearly every Lebanese community. They primarily are a humanitarian organization that Israel is exploiting as a terrorist faction. Capturing the 2 Israeli soldiers was a bad move, but it was historically a normal way of negotiating that Israel blew WAY out of perportion this time. And while they are shelling nothern Israeli towns, understand that it is in retaliation to the massive shelling of Lebanese neighborhoods. And make no mistake, the IDF is shelling neighborhoods, not military airstrips and missle silos.

 

While the US is in Iraq, the world expects us to bust down doors and get the bad guys without civilian casualties. While we haven't done a perfect job of that (believe me, I'm not trying to make us sound like saints), we are at least trying. Israel is killing hundreds of helpless civilians by shelling apartments. It's just not ok. In 1982 they killed 17000 civilians.

 

Is it worth it? Israel would like us to think so. If you think it's worth it I wish you would seriously re-evaluate your value of human life. It is not ok to kill civilians. It is NOT ok to kill civilians. And it is deffinately not ok to shell neighborhoods. Kick down doors if you must, but don't shell apartments and schools.

 

Here's how it should be going:

IDF captain - We've discovered a weapon cache

IDF general - Can we airstrike it?

IDF captain - No, sir. It's next to a school.

IDF general - OK we'll send troops to destroy it.

 

There you go. Problem solved. That minimalizes civilian casualties. Was that so *fruitcage* hard? When we think there may be a terrorist on a plane in the US we don't instantly decide to shoot down the plane. If there's a terrorist in an apartment building... don't shell the goddamn apartment building.

 

Is this getting through to anyone?!

[Chimpy]

that is in all fairness what Hezbollah is doing.  Whether you approve of their tactics or not, they aren't trying to destroy Israel, they are trying to defend Lebanon.  I'm not saying they are 100% in the right here, but they are a fundamental group in nearly every Lebanese community.

 

Half the population is Christian (Catholic IIRC) there is very little to no support for Hezbollah in that demographic.

 

They primarily are a humanitarian organization that Israel is exploiting as a terrorist faction.

 

The Military wing is not humanitarian and is infact a standing militia that is a proxy army for Syria and Iran.

 

Capturing the 2 Israeli soldiers was a bad move, but it was historically a normal way of negotiating that Israel blew WAY out of perportion this time.  And while they are shelling nothern Israeli towns, understand that it is in retaliation to the massive shelling of Lebanese neighborhoods.  And make no mistake, the IDF is shelling neighborhoods, not military airstrips and missle silos.

 

Yes kidnapping is negotiation. I rather think the negotiating term is Blackmail.

 

Keep poking a bear with a stick and it'll eventually tear your arm off.

 

Some of the shelling is unjustified, some is. It is very hard to tell as a civilian thousands of miles away which case is which. One thing is apparant, none of the Hezbollah shelling is justified and it is ALL targeted against civilians.

 

While the US is in Iraq, the world expects us to bust down doors and get the bad guys without civilian casualties.  While we haven't done a perfect job of that (believe me, I'm not trying to make us sound like saints), we are at least trying.  Israel is killing hundreds of helpless civilians by shelling apartments.  It's just not ok.  In 1982 they killed 17000 civilians.

 

Fallujah, massive civilian casualties. You simply cannot fight a guerilla force without them. During this campaign I think Israel is causing civilian fatalities at the same rate as the Coallition did during the ground campaign phase of operations in Iraq.

 

Is it worth it?  Israel would like us to think so.  If you think it's worth it I wish you would seriously re-evaluate your value of human life.  It is not ok to kill civilians.  It is NOT ok to kill civilians.  And it is deffinately not ok to shell neighborhoods.  Kick down doors if you must, but don't shell apartments and schools.

 

Here's how it should be going:

IDF captain - We've discovered a weapon cache

IDF general - Can we airstrike it?

IDF captain - No, sir.  It's next to a school.

IDF general - OK we'll send troops to destroy it.

 

There you go.  Problem solved.  That minimalizes civilian casualties.  Was that so *fruitcage* hard?  When we think there may be a terrorist on a plane in the US we don't instantly decide to shoot down the plane.  If there's a terrorist in an apartment building... don't shell the goddamn apartment building.

 

Is this getting through to anyone?!

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Interesting and your experience of planning military operations against an insurgent force is what? Mine is none and I don't pretend to tell SMEs how to do their job. However the use of force should be proportional to the risk that the target causes. Which is what I think you are trying to say?

 

BTW Hezbollah wants Israel troops on the ground as it legitimises their 'defence' and gives them a chance to fight in a situation where they are on an equal footing.

 

The only thing that doesnt seem to be getting through is you to Lebanon.

[expvideo]

You make some valid points in that post, the only one I disagree with is this:

 

Half the population is Christian (Catholic IIRC) there is very little to no support for Hezbollah in that demographic.

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"Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.[18]"

-Wikipedia article on Hezbollah

[Elias]

You cant try to reason with a group like Hezbollah. As for the civilian casualties, these will always be involved in war, probably for the foreseable future anyway. Israel has said it wont invade the entirity of lebanon and airstrikes and shelling is the only other way the war can be undertaken. If Nostradumus was indeed correct, were heading closer towards a global religious war and possibly the apocalypse. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

[doc_newstead]

Wikipedia article on Hezbollah

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Then it must be true