Hedganian Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Consider: Arguing about God and/or religion is pointless. You belief what you believe. It is highly unlikely that anyone will present an argument so convincing that you will abandon your beliefs and embrace theirs. The right or wrong doesn't really matter. You can believe in a God, or not, nothing I can say will change your mind one way or the other. So why do so many people - and I've been guilty of this myself - try to 'prove' their position to the other side? Why does everyone try to convert everyone else? Why do I have people knocking on my door to give me the benefit of their message? Why are you people discussing this? Just shut the hell up, believe whatever you want and let everyone else do the same. You'll find out one way or another sooner or later anyway. Just wait. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 So? A fallen angel is still an angel. So you're saying, that if I banish you from earth (eject you into space or whatnot) then you cease to be a human? Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Satan was an angel. No longer - God banished him from heaven. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Doesn't matter. The only being specified in the Bible as having free will are human beings. Link to post Share on other sites
Skarclaw Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 So? A fallen angel is still an angel. So you're saying, that if I banish you from earth (eject you into space or whatnot) then you cease to be a human? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you were a policeman but were sacked for whatever, are you still a policeman 2 years after working as whatever? Whilst we must consider our reality, eg, we are in the matrix for example, I would counter by saying that science produces explanations on things within our reality, based on analysis of things ,again, within our reality. Whilst I understand Jag's point, I would also point out that I think it is unlikly that in the future we will look back and laugh at the notion of DNA, true, alot of beliefs the human race once had seem laughable now, but we also have a greater scientific knowledge of the things around us, compared to what we knew earlier. Again, I somewhat dissagree with Jag's point about our senses, yes I agree our senses can be wrong, but the chances of several billion people observing something (for example, thier limbs moving, or gravity) which turns out is just a confusion of the senses seems to be quite low odds. Link to post Share on other sites
horzathesecound Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Scarclaw, when the leading thinkers of the time thought that the four humours were totaly correct, im sure that they would think the same thing. Surely our understanding of science has allways been much better than what we understood in the past? For what its worth, i believe in God. I wouldnt really consider myself Christian or Catholic, just that i believe. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 'If you were a policeman but were sacked for whatever, are you still a policeman 2 years after working as whatever?' that is irrelevant. Being a policeman is a job; not who the person is themselves How can you ceace to be the species you were born to be? other example: If I threw an alligator out of it's pond and forced him never to come back, does he cease to be an alligator? no. Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Geeze..... Take it to a theology forum, people. This long ceased to be amusing. The link was, the debate is not. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hedganian, if you do not like what is being discussed in this thread, well.....the kindest way I can put this is: 'oh, ###### off to your own threads and stop complaining' All we are doing is discussing religion. It's not exactly a bad thing... Link to post Share on other sites
Tinkerton Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Thing is though, its not as simple as you dragging an aligator out of a pond. Its a (supposedly) omnipotent being exiling a group of people for eternity. Anyway, IIRC the angels did have free will, but only before lucifer and his cronies tried to take over heaven. otherwise, if they didnt have free will before that, why did god allow them to do it? Link to post Share on other sites
Skarclaw Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 'If you were a policeman but were sacked for whatever, are you still a policeman 2 years after working as whatever?' that is irrelevant. Being a policeman is a job; not who the person is themselves If an angel is a holy worker of God, who resides in heaven, then something which doesn't work for God, not holy, and not in heaven wouldn't be an angel, surely? Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Except Lucifer was "born" as an angel, possessing angel-like qualities. If you eject him from heaven, he's still an angel, possessing angel-like qualities. If he is no longer an angel, the where the hell does all his power come from? Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Peoples sin gives satan power. CC Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thing is though, its not as simple as you dragging an aligator out of a pond. Its a (supposedly) omnipotent being exiling a group of people for eternity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not people. That's kinda the whole point. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Which doesn't make sense at all.... Especially since there's no such thing as a person who doesn't sin. Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 So? A fallen angel is still an angel. So you're saying, that if I banish you from earth (eject you into space or whatnot) then you cease to be a human? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A fallen angel is typically a devil. But this is assuming that Satan is a fall angel. In the original Hebrew texts, Satan was 'the Satan' and he was the angel whose duty was to prosecute us for our sins upon arrival in heaven. Again, I somewhat dissagree with Jag's point about our senses, yes I agree our senses can be wrong, but the chances of several billion people observing something (for example, thier limbs moving, or gravity) which turns out is just a confusion of the senses seems to be quite low odds. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're assuming that we aren't imagining those people. Don't forget that there are many people who believe that they are ordered to do certain things by God or talk to people who aren't there, &c. Who is to say that we don't think that, either? Except Lucifer was "born" as an angel, possessing angel-like qualities. If you eject him from heaven, he's still an angel, possessing angel-like qualities. If he is no longer an angel, the where the hell does all his power come from? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. Lucifer is the Latin title of Yeshua of Nazareth. During translation it was corrupted to be the title of an ancient king of the Old Testament who persecuted the Hebrews. It is never explicitly used as the title of Satan. God gives satan power. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fixed. Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 In old Hebrew, "Satan" simply means "Enemy". In the current Finnish translation of the bible, they use the expression "enemy of the soul" instead of "satan". Lucifer means "the bearer of light". If you're comparing mythical beings such as angels to policemen and alligators, you're way off track. -sale Link to post Share on other sites
Skarclaw Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 What about comparing the entire universe to a rock or watch? Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Consider the lily. Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Consider the larch, surely? CC Link to post Share on other sites
alastairthegreat Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 In old Hebrew, "Satan" simply means "Enemy". In the current Finnish translation of the bible, they use the expression "enemy of the soul" instead of "satan". Lucifer means "the bearer of light". If you're comparing mythical beings such as angels to policemen and alligators, you're way off track. -sale <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well, dont quote me on this but today in R.E. the textbook we were working from quoted the hebrew for satan as "an obstructor" hence the rivalry between him and god in the old testament, then in the new testament all of a sudden everybody blames him for everything evil and hates him. Link to post Share on other sites
Woodco Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Have any of you guys read these books? http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/index.htm One of them has a strange story about how giants like goliath was formed... When they refered the "Giants in the land" They may have been refering to time when a group of angels rebelled and came to earth and copulated with human females. The offspring from this "union" was giants. Kind of an odd story. I don't really belive it though Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 O RLY? Link to post Share on other sites
PlateArmour Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 I grew outta religeon because I was worried it would give me a false sense of security, and because the cathedral in my city owns about 85% of all the properties that the shops use in the highstreets. So only massive companies can afford to rent, theres no aitsoft shops and a high class casino that would have helped with the massive levels of unemployment in my area was turned down because "Gambling is a sin" as they put it. And so I went off thinking that I would never push people outta there beliefs so why are they pushing theres on me. And I got punched by a jehova witness. Great find by the way Link to post Share on other sites
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