renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Real 9mm pistols aren't even effective out to those ranges unless the target is standing up, fully exposed. Most AEGs aren't either. 40 meters is a long shot for any airsoft gun. People think it's not cause they have a hard time gauging distance. Most well tuned AEGs are only reliably effective against head sized targets at 25 meter or less, GBB pistols, 10. That... that's just sad bro. I haven't shot a 9mm myself at that distance because of small indoor ranges here so I'd suggest instead you go on over to Youtube and look up Hickock45 and see just how far he can get 9mm out to. As for the 40m number on a TM pistol, I stand by that number as I've both shot that distance and know the distance because I have a digital range finder. At 25m any TM pistol will group the size of a melon and often times be more accurate than your average china aeg. Regarding the no pistols for modern armies (and here I thought you were vehemently against milsim?) just because they can't afford to equip all units with pistols doesn't speak of its effectiveness. Look at elite forces that have proper funding. More likely than not, they all have a pistol tucked somewhere and even extra mags for it to boot. Link to post Share on other sites
IBMedic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 That... that's just sad bro. I haven't shot a 9mm myself at that distance because of small indoor ranges here so I'd suggest instead you go on over to Youtube and look up Hickock45 and see just how far he can get 9mm out to. As for the 40m number on a TM pistol, I stand by that number as I've both shot that distance and know the distance because I have a digital range finder. At 25m any TM pistol will group the size of a melon and often times be more accurate than your average china aeg. Regarding the no pistols for modern armies (and here I thought you were vehemently against milsim?) just because they can't afford to equip all units with pistols doesn't speak of its effectiveness. Look at elite forces that have proper funding. More likely than not, they all have a pistol tucked somewhere and even extra mags for it to boot. The United States Army is the most well funded military organization in human history. And it doesn't equip riflemen with a M9 not because they can't afford them but because centuries of real combat experience has proven that the additional combat load of a sidearm is too much to justify its combat weight for the rifleman. He's better off carrying more ammo for his primary. And yes, H45 can shoot out to crazy ranges even with a sub sonic M1911 and low profile fixed sights. But that's H45 with decades of experience as a professional target shooter. He been plinking out to those ranges with lever guns longer than most of us have been alive. Now take away those decades of experience, add combat stress and change out that real firearm for a BB gun. Now what's your range? Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Is it me or do I see some repetition here from a certain member? Either way as I run a pistol as my primary (40m hits are possible but in the UK and outdoors you need calm wind and full body exposure for that hit) my backup is really my rubber knife. As I have a habit of making each shot count I do find that if I am close enough the rubber knife helps. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
NeoVeNoM Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Any TM pistol I have is my back up. Only my 7inch hicapa, that's a primary. And as a former RS M92 owner I can clearly state that a few months of practice lets you easily empty an entire clip on a man sized target at 25 meters well within 60 seconds. He is correct however regarding distances measured by players. They are like fishermen. Still doesn't change the fact that high-quality AEG's easily attain 40 meters straight with sub 350FPS power. This as well has been tested by me on an outdoor range, placing the targets at 50 meters. Anyone can attain this by proper practice (drills & plenty of airsoftgames), knowledge and the use of proper parts. So to but it simple, just because you cannot, doesn't mean it's impossible. And btw why so serious? Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The United States Army is the most well funded military organization in human history. And yet when bidding for new ordnance they consistently choose the cheapest option, not the best performing one. Again, while front line troops aren't always issued a sidearm, why do you think officers as well as elite troops are? If they're so much of a dead weight, why are they invested to those who are more highly valued as a unit? And you yourself said, back in Vietnam every soldier wrote home to have their folks and/or loved ones mail them their pistols from back home. I'm sure they never considered it as useless whenever their well funded, highly engineered primary weapon broke down. Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 And yet when bidding for new ordnance they consistently choose the cheapest option, not the best performing one. Again, while front line troops aren't always issued a sidearm, why do you think officers as well as elite troops are? If they're so much of a dead weight, why are they invested to those who are more highly valued as a unit? And you yourself said, back in Vietnam every soldier wrote home to have their folks and/or loved ones mail them their pistols from back home. I'm sure they never considered it as useless whenever their well funded, highly engineered primary weapon broke down. Again I will ask you realise who you are talking to here But I agree with your points, pistols are not useless, they are in some cases very useful as history has proved. Just many will still see it as 'well if my primary breaks I take the hit and back to the safezone' with HSLD setups being common a pistol just doesn't really get considered. I do like my pistols but I know for many they just don't and that is up to them. But at the end of the day when people start to drag up real steel against actual airsoft guns it can get silly. Either way the US will usually swing for the lowest bidder like any other army, hence why the M9 was chosen. If an army went by what they wanted rather than what they could afford all those prototype designs would be in use and everyone would be running the latest pistols, rifles and vehicles they could but as this is not talking about peoples own personal 'backups' I am going to leave it at that. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I suppose you're right. With that, here's some comedy: Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I suppose you're right. With that, here's some comedy: What do you mean comedy? Have you not seen my pictures of me in the classic 'look like you are taking a *suitcase* outdoors on your neighbours lawn' pose? I mean every time I take my pistol out I give it a little shake in my hand and then cock it But then I have tried those techniques, they are fail but fun to see how people used a pistol before the likes of Weaver and Cooper came along in the US. Also shouldn't that video be in the Magpul Training DVDs thread? I could make so much lols out of that one video. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
IBMedic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 And yet when bidding for new ordnance they consistently choose the cheapest option, not the best performing one. Again, while front line troops aren't always issued a sidearm, why do you think officers as well as elite troops are? If they're so much of a dead weight, why are they invested to those who are more highly valued as a unit? And you yourself said, back in Vietnam every soldier wrote home to have their folks and/or loved ones mail them their pistols from back home. I'm sure they never considered it as useless whenever their well funded, highly engineered primary weapon broke down. History FAIL The M9 was picked because Beretta was the only manufacturer at the time willing to make the pistols in the US rather than importing them. And citing Vietnam hardly supports your point. They wanted a sidearm only cause their primary was completely unreliable. Your AEG is a hell of a lot more reliable than any sidearm you can possibly bring short of an AEP. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 History FAIL The M9 was picked because Beretta was the only manufacturer at the time willing to make the pistols in the US rather than importing them. And citing Vietnam hardly supports your point. They wanted a sidearm only cause their primary was completely unreliable. Your AEG is a hell of a lot more reliable than any sidearm you can possibly bring short of an AEP. Ok, I'll ride along. Why was it that the US army required the new sidearm be locally manufactured in the first place? I'll give you a hint, the answer's not "aliens". And I like how you discredit what happened in Vietnam because it totally points out an instance where you're completely in the wrong but still hang on no matter how ridiculous it makes you sound. Much like how you keep saying GBBRs are wank but at the same time being very much happy with the performance of your TM MP7 which is toootally not a GBBR. Yes, your GBB MP7 is an AEG. Link to post Share on other sites
IBMedic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Ok, I'll ride along. Why was it that the US army required the new sidearm be locally manufactured in the first place? I'll give you a hint, the answer's not "aliens". And I like how you discredit what happened in Vietnam because it totally points out an instance where you're completely in the wrong but still hang on no matter how ridiculous it makes you sound. Much like how you keep saying GBBRs are wank but at the same time being very much happy with the performance of your TM MP7 which is toootally not a GBBR. Yes, your GBB MP7 is an AEG. Do you just not read? GBB =/= GBBR. GBB pistols and SMGs are generally reliable. They might not perform as well as AEGs overall but in some situations the performance gap is less important, and the compactness of GBB SMGs come out on top. GBBRs I'm not even going to get into. Cheaper =/= local manufacturer benefits. They were interested in paying less, the Glock was the cheapest, but they were more interested in creating jobs locally. The point is that American soldiers are not denied sidearms cause they're expensive, but because they're unnecessary. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 So, uh, explain to me why officers and elite forces are issued sidearms? Or did you selectively not read that a page ago? Link to post Share on other sites
bobthebuilder Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Cheaper =/= local manufacturer benefits. They were interested in paying less, the Glock was the cheapest, but they were more interested in creating jobs locally. The point is that American soldiers are not denied sidearms cause they're expensive, but because they're unnecessary. 2 points on this: 1) the Glock was never entered into the trials at the time they selected the Beretta. Glock had only just started up in the handgun production field (the first trials for a new handgun where in '79-80, glock only came to market in '82) and the glock didn't meet the US millitary requirements anyway. 2) The Beretta categorically did win out over the Sig offering (the 226) on the grounds of cost. (See Pg18 - warning, PDF) Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Maaan, what'd you do that for? I was sincerely curious how far his delusions would go. Link to post Share on other sites
Cannonfodder80 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Personaly I find a back up useful for those (thankfully rare) moments when the AEG goes down or in tight spaces where a longer rifle can be a hindrance. As for what armed forces get issued sidearms, I really couldn't give a flying *fruitcage* as I'm not in the military and so am free to use what I prefer not what some pen pusher in an office says they can afford Link to post Share on other sites
IBMedic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 This is getting more and more off topic...The cost angle was used to justify it in the report, but American politics favors jobs over tax dollars any day of the week. If that's still not enough proof, consider that Beretta put out the first lot on the order from their US facility while SiG didn't start their US production of the P226 till much later when they moved to a milled stainless steel slide of the old forged West German ones.The Glock was not officially entered in the competition because it had no political lobbying at the time since it was a rather small, little known name out of Austria. People in military circles were aware of it of course but they never had incentive to enter it in even though the polymer frame and simple slide design make it much cheaper than both the SiG and Beretta.We can go back and forth on this all day long there's literally entire books dedicated to this subject.But that's not the point of this thread, so please get back on topic. Link to post Share on other sites
IBMedic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 So, uh, explain to me why officers and elite forces are issued sidearms? Or did you selectively not read that a page ago? The same reason they're issued with carbines rather than rifles and MK18 10" rather than 20" M16A4. Does this make the MK18 an inherently better weapon cause SEALS use it? Or the M1A1 Carbine better than the M1 Garand cause officers and paratroopers use it? Fail, try again. Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Personaly I find a back up useful for those (thankfully rare) moments when the AEG goes down or in tight spaces where a longer rifle can be a hindrance. I had my AEG go down at a weekender and as we were holding a rather important building, had to resort to my sidearm which worked wonders until I had an opportunity to get back to where my spare was. I have also had many occasions where switching to my pistol has been beneficial when in buildings, allowing me much greater freedom of movement. An example being a multistory building we had to clear and in the tight confines, my RPK was a nightmare so the pistol was used to great effect. Link to post Share on other sites
IBMedic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I had my AEG go down at a weekender and as we were holding a rather important building, had to resort to my sidearm which worked wonders until I had an opportunity to get back to where my spare was. I have also had many occasions where switching to my pistol has been beneficial when in buildings, allowing me much greater freedom of movement. An example being a multistory building we had to clear and in the tight confines, my RPK was a nightmare so the pistol was used to great effect. This is understandable. If you're lugging around a SAW, having a pistol is a good idea on fields where there's built up areas. Also why SAW gunners in the Army get a M9 Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Army get a M9 Oh, so the army is issued M9s now. Interesting. The same reason they're issued with carbines rather than rifles and MK18 10" rather than 20" M16A4. Does this make the MK18 an inherently better weapon cause SEALS use it? Or the M1A1 Carbine better than the M1 Garand cause officers and paratroopers use it? Fail, try again. I don't get it. Could you spell that out for me plainly? Link to post Share on other sites
Cannonfodder80 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 So are you now saying they are useful? Link to post Share on other sites
gisburn20 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Back on topic anyone? This a thread about what your backup is. At the moment I'm using my AA 1911 MEU. NEXT! Jim Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Right! As of now I'm back to my very old, first generation KJW P226 when using my STALKER loadouts. I've had to patch it up a few times over the years (nozzle, valve knocker, recoil spring guide) but is tough as nails considering I've dropped it several times and on concrete too due to ill fitting holsters. edit: Using a P226 as its the closest I could get to a P220 in the game. Personally I'd rather have a Fort-12. Link to post Share on other sites
Cannonfodder80 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 If I'm not carrying the MP5K then my secondary is either an old fixed hop TM M92F, KJW Mk1 or a fixed slide Maruzen P99 Link to post Share on other sites
hawaiianjuggernaut Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Link to post Share on other sites
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