Are RealSword ever going to release the M4 they announced at IWA 2014?

[jal3]

Didn't seem like vapourware when i held it...

 

The ASAR15 is basicly an ICS M4 with better materials and tricked out internals.

For all the coolness of other M4's, they're still just stock rifles. No neodymium motors, plastic parts here and there.

The ASAR is opposite that. It's got SHS piston, SHS gears, full metal cylinder head / pistonhead / spring guide, ASCU and neodymium motor.

 

The Realswords still use plastic pistons, non-neo motors, stock gears, no relay switch etc. If i bought a real sword, my first action would be to take it apart and upgrade it.

 

It's not really fair to compare them on externals, because a real AK is steel, whereas a real AR15 is alu. There's not really much difference between airsoft and RS AR15, except they're heavier in the front. And an airsoft AR15 is gonna be plenty heavy when it's souped up.

 

But no doubt that RS AK has the best externals of any AEG on the market.

[Rob15]

 If the ASAR-15 comes as stock with a high-grade body (forged/CNC'd 6063 or 7075), a steel barrel, steel gears and all the other parts we've been getting on RealSwords for the last ten years I'd be very tempted, but until it comes to market we won't know if it will have any of those.

Why does it need to be a receiver made from 6063 T6 or 7075 T7 aluminium alloys specifically? Why not 2014 T6, 6082 T6 (a newer 'replacement' to 6061 T6) or 6026 T9, all of which are commonly available and fairly affordable grades compared with 7075 T7 and all of which have a far higher tensile strength than 6063 T6.

 

Other than "the real ones use that grade" I see absolutely no reason to be so picky about the grade, I'd be willing to bet there are cases where RS manufacturers are using the one that's most available in the required form/size and cost effective to them. The properties of using 7075 T7 would be completely wasted in typical airsoft applications and you'd not get any real gain for the extra cost, it's completely different from plastics where the average airsofter can tell the difference between ABS and Glass Fibre Reinforced Nylon and the only time you'd realistically find out the receiver wasn't made from the grade of aluminium you were told is if you had it re-anodised and it came out badly.

 

Anyhow, the market being too saturated seems like a cop out excuse, if it's too saturated you simply don't bother spending a penny on R&D, let alone making prototype parts then spending a not insignificant amount of cash showing them off at industry shows, my guess is technical issues with the design holding it up, at least with the TM recoil shock series it was a variation on the proven gearbox design with some mechanical bits added on and nothing too drastically new to sort out.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

 

Anyway, the promises made by RS in terms of the functioning characteristics of this vapourware AR line were *fruitcage* astronomical, like the first time I watched the unveiling of the TM SOPMOD but multiplied by 100.  There's no *fruitcage* way that the 'market was too saturated' to take on the gun they claimed they'd be releasing.  It was supposed to be just like running a GBBr but using electricity, with a full sized, (pretty much) realistic bolt carrier clanking back and forth inside and using mags that'd be about half the price of GBBr at most; with of course all the practical advantages that come with electric vs gas operation.  Personally, I don't believe they ever got the system working but obviously that doesn't preclude me from hoping I'm wrong.

Reading this, the thing that comes to mind is battery size/capacity. A realistic bolt carrier with enough weight to simulate (edit: *proper*) recoil, would be a massive energy draw wouldn't it? Maybe RS discovered they weren't able to accommodate a large enough battery without sacrificing aesthetics, balance or function.

[TheFull9]

I wouldn't have thought you'd get anything much more than a TM recoil gun in terms of feeling in the shoulder, so (at the most barely educated of guesses) I think it might be feasible.  My guess is they had an initial idea that they thought they could make work and was probably spawned from a combination of the operation of the PTW and RS AR.  But obviously something blocked the development, heck it might not have had anything to do with making the system work in a practical fashion, they might've literally just run out of funds for R&D or lost a key person on the project or some manufacturing facilities.  Could be anything, the industry of airsoft is a house built on top of jelly.

[PureSilver]

Didn't seem like vapourware when i held it...

 

I shouldn't think the RealSwords seemed like vapourware when everyone was holding those at IWA, either. I reckon that the ASAR15 will eventually come out in 2015 or 2016 - unlike the RealSword - but my point is that like the RealSword the ASAR15 has been promised for years on end but never actually released, not even for review or testing.

 

It's not really fair to compare them on externals, because a real AK is steel, whereas a real AR15 is alu. There's not really much difference between airsoft and RS AR15, except they're heavier in the front. And an airsoft AR15 is gonna be plenty heavy when it's souped up.

 

But no doubt that RS AK has the best externals of any AEG on the market.

 

The internals is an interesting point; there is no inherent benefit to SHS parts over unbranded or OEM parts of equivalent quality though I agree with you that the RealSwords are far from unimprovable. My focus is actually on the externals, because it's very easy to upgrade the internals of a version 2 gun to be the equal or better of a RealSword, but very difficult to upgrade the externals to the same standard. It may be that an AK is steel and an AR15 isn't, but they both have steel barrels - why is it that barely any airsoft AR15s do? Why is it that hardly any airsoft AR15s have working ambidextrous selectors? Why is it that a $150 CYMA AK has a steel receiver, and a $400 RA-Tech has a forged aluminium receiver, but every AEG AR15 - up to and including a $1200 Systema M4 - has a receiver cast out of a usually s***y pot metal?

 

Why does it need to be a receiver made from 6063 T6 or 7075 T7 aluminium alloys specifically? Why not 2014 T6, 6082 T6 (a newer 'replacement' to 6061 T6) or 6026 T9, all of which are commonly available and fairly affordable grades compared with 7075 T7 and all of which have a far higher tensile strength than 6063 T6.

 

I'm familiar with those alloys and know them to be tough enough for the real thing - that's why I chose them. I'd be almost as happy with situation where the manufacturer actually specified a named, graded alloy, even if it wasn't something as tough as 7075T6 - anything would be an improvement on the *suitcasey* grades we get at the moment. On a personal note, I don't like the "well, it doesn't have to be as tough as the real thing" logic - yes, I appreciate that it is probably true, but I'd still like the option of being able to buy something that really is built as tough as the real thing is.

[Rob15]

I'm familiar with those alloys and know them to be tough enough for the real thing - that's why I chose them. I'd be almost as happy with situation where the manufacturer actually specified a named, graded alloy, even if it wasn't something as tough as 7075T6 - anything would be an improvement on the *suitcasey* grades we get at the moment.

If by tough you are refering to the tensile strength of the metal and there is a RS manufacturer using 6063 T6 then it's certainly not being used because it's the alloy with the highest tensile strength before getting into the 7000 series aluminium alloys, 2014 T6 for example has a tensile strength 4x higher than 6063 T6, 6082 T6 is over 3x higher and is one of the most widely available here in the UK. If 6063 T6 is being used then I'd guess other factors like experience machining it, cost and availability are playing a large part in the decision.

 

On a personal note, I don't like the "well, it doesn't have to be as tough as the real thing" logic - yes, I appreciate that it is probably true, but I'd still like the option of being able to buy something that really is built as tough as the real thing is.

It's not a case of it doesn't have to be as tough, more a case it doesn't have to be the same grade, as above, 6063 T6 has quite a low tensile strength, there is no shortage of grades with higher tensile strengths but don't cost as much to buy or machine as 7075 T7.

 

All that ignores the simple fact that using the same material as the real version doesn't mean it's as tough as the real one though, especially in terms of AEGs, design plays a big part in it as well. I'm not a big AR varient fan, even less of a RS AR fan but from what I've seen of RS M4 lowers in photos they have large corner radiuses in the area machined for the trigger and hammer parts, in order to fit a gearbox or something similar to existing gearboxes in terms of size and shape more material would have to be machined and smaller radiuses left meaning even if the same material was used an airsoft receiver would be weaker than the real thing in some areas.

 

That leads on to an issue with the length vs diameter of endmills, to make room in an AR lower receiver for a V2 gearbox you'll be pushing past the working length of standard endmills and most likely long series ones as well so milling it is going to pose more of a problem, the longer the length relative to the diameter the slower you have to mill the corners which adds cost. I suspect this is the reason there are fully CNC machined lowers for AR GBBrs but not AEGs, casting is just far more practical, it's just a shame the grades of metal used are typically so poor, if a manufacturer were to cast receivers from a half decent aircraft grade aluminium and said which they'd have a major selling point over others imo without even getting into forging and/or machining.

[PureSilver]

I reckon that judicious use of WEDM, broaching, milling and other techniques could turn forged billets into AEG-compatible receivers without undue difficulty, especially if we were to update the ancient version 2 gearbox standard to make the marriage between receiver and gearbox suit the updated design, but I agree that a improvement in the metal grades alone would be a huge improvement.

[Rob15]

I reckon that judicious use of WEDM, broaching, milling and other techniques could turn forged billets into AEG-compatible receivers without undue difficulty, especially if we were to update the ancient version 2 gearbox standard to make the marriage between receiver and gearbox suit the updated design, but I agree that a improvement in the metal grades alone would be a huge improvement.

Wire EDM or broaching would only really work fully for the magwell, which is how the RS ones are done (either or, not both), the pocket for the gearbox shell is where the issue lies, sinker EDM is an option there but really that is a process associated more with tool and mould making than actual part production. I've no doubt that it could be done even for existing gearboxes, but I'd expect the prices to be even higher than receivers for GBBrs which is bound to put anyone off making a batch unless it was for one of the higher end platforms like the recoil shocks or PTWs.

[jal3]

 

I shouldn't think the RealSwords seemed like vapourware when everyone was holding those at IWA, either. I reckon that the ASAR15 will eventually come out in 2015 or 2016 - unlike the RealSword - but my point is that like the RealSword the ASAR15 has been promised for years on end but never actually released, not even for review or testing.

 

The internals is an interesting point; there is no inherent benefit to SHS parts over unbranded or OEM parts of equivalent quality though I agree with you that the RealSwords are far from unimprovable. My focus is actually on the externals, because it's very easy to upgrade the internals of a version 2 gun to be the equal or better of a RealSword, but very difficult to upgrade the externals to the same standard. It may be that an AK is steel and an AR15 isn't, but they both have steel barrels - why is it that barely any airsoft AR15s do? Why is it that hardly any airsoft AR15s have working ambidextrous selectors? Why is it that a $150 CYMA AK has a steel receiver, and a $400 RA-Tech has a forged aluminium receiver, but every AEG AR15 - up to and including a $1200 Systema M4 - has a receiver cast out of a usually s***y pot metal?

Uhm...everyone who held it at IWA pretty much concluded it was vaporware. It was just an empty gun with some gears shown. Meanwhile the ASAR15 has been demonstrated working way before, and why shouldn't it, it's just a pimped ICS M4. Meanwhile, the RS M4 is just...well i don't know, i couldn't get anything useful out of their reps.

 

If you want to continue arguing about the use of that word, i don't care, but come on, don't put the RS M4 and ASAR15 in the same bin. One is in the production, the other doesn't even exist as a concept.

If there ever comes something out of the RS AR15, it will be something we don't know, because they haven't shown anything yet.

 

There's not an inherent benefit to SHS no (other than being super cheap and generally awesome)...which i why i specificly mentioned SHS piston and SHS gears. SHS gears and pistons have super high durability at a completely mental low price. It's what all the tuners use around here.

 

The whole point about not having to upgrade is warranty and buying new. That doesn't matter to experienced airsofters, we all buy used and finetune to our own liking, but to the average customer that actually visits a shop and wants something with warranty, a better M4 is huge. Right now the selection is stock m4 A, stock m4 B, stock mp5 a, stock g36 a, stock m4 c, stock m4 b, awesome EVO and PTW.

 

When people come in and get a quote for a tuneup and their response is "i could buy a new rifle for less!" (not in a complaining way), but the only thing they can buy is another stock rifle that needs the same upgrade to be skirmishable..THAT'S when a pimped out, quick-change ASAR15 would be awesome to have in the inventory. They could pay a little more, maybe 400£ instead of 300£, and they'd have both a NEW RIFLE, completely tuned up, WITH WARRANTY

 

So this is why the ASAR15 is something new.

I've had so many customers interested in the EVO, but ending up bailing because it's not an M4. Which is entirely fair. It's just such a shame.

And that's where the ASAR15 will make a difference.

 

Why do you really need better receivers? G&P, CA, APS etc...they work fairly well! Receivers being loose is more of an issue of production than material. The APS receivers are SUPER solid, even years after sale, there's 0 wobble when they come back for checkup. Really impressed with those. I wouldn't hesitate to smash a G&P M4 through a window either, it'll hold.

 

Airsoft AR's have alu (outer)barrels because it's cheaper and lighter while being sufficient for the task.

Barrel weight is a huge factor on real AR15s. They put big effort into making it as light as possible while keeping it sufficiently strong for the pressure and heat from repeated shooting.

On an airsoft rifle we have no requirements for heat sink features. Alu is PLENTY fine for our application. Making outer barrels from steel is just more expensive and they weight more. There's no reason to. I don't know anyone who prefers steel barrels on their AR15's. Not AEG users, not milsimmers, not speedballers, not PTW freaks.

[Lone_Bullet]

Also consider that not everyone has access to a shop that's not trying to rob you and has better understanding of airsoft tech than a chairsofter reading up on various forums.

Au contraire: a Belgian known gunshop tried to sell me an A&K masada before they had to be off the shelves due to FN Herstal's licencing the FN logo.

I asked if he didn't mean the Scar and that the thing sells for US$ 150 instead of his asking price of €400.

He answers me more or less " the f*ck do you know about arms? This isn't a video game! ".

Would he answer me differently, I would give his warranty a thought.

 

I really envy US and UK gunshops that know their stuff and take you seriously.

 

Thus, I buy Real Sword because of reliability. Or other brands that are over engineered. 

 

About the steel barrel: I've had the G&G G36k RIS and steel barrel on sale for more than a year. Asking €100 for it. 

Never used, my G36 was sold due to financial problems.

No-one bought it, I ended up giving it away. It's nice to have , but no-one gives a poop. Except me, it seems.

[Finbarqs]

Sad thing is that nobody perfectly replicated the colt ar15 body... A lot of them still carry the forge line... And the edges aren't as sharp as an actual colt. Little details that they left out... And colt mfg inc. Doesn't exist anymore, it's all colt mfg LLC. But now, that doesn't even exist. It's all colt defense now. And my custom viper tech messed up in that too! The font is too small... But hey, they don't have the real one so they can't actually compare... Can't blame them. All they can do is replicate it from another airsoft replica..

 

Oh and the 7075 aluminum anodizes differently too... I can see the difference in thickness and color when I merge a real upper receiver into my viper lower...

[Aod]

Oh, you mean these ones (FINALLY found the photos yesterday!);

 

The one I'm holding is the GBB and the M16 on the wall to the upper left is the AEG.

 

The Boss of realsword told us that they were effectively "ready", but he didn't think they were different enough from existing models on the market, and wanted to redesign them.

[jal3]

The AEG one is "fake". It's a PTW style lower with a GBBR upper on it. It's not a complete concept. It's been like that for years.

[Griff762]

Here's the photo's of those particular rifles from last years IWA:

 

 

Looked and felt nice but there was nothing inside them and the mags were glued in!

[castigador]

Could the reason for the guns being empty be that, even though IWA is an arms fair, every replica on display their should still be Germany legal. By having them empty they wouldnt have to bother with the required markings and/or the technical modifications required.

[jal3]

Don't think so.

[PureSilver]

Interesting idea, but I don't think so either. The reason there's nothing in them is RealSword weren't just planning impressive externals, they were talking about proprietary and innovative internals (an electromagnetic blowback system, for one) which no-one outside RealSword has ever seen and therefore might well not exist yet (or indeed ever).

 

No internal design means no internals in the display models.

[Baddbaz]

I want the type 97 sniper or The support gun that was promised and shown but never released !!

[Baddbaz]

Still no new news from real sword 2015

[tinkle60]

From the horses mouth: r&d is complete and they are ready to go, but they don't feel the need to expand.

[Skarclaw]

It would be some 10/10 trolling if they ended up making the best airsoft AR ever... in the form of a Norinco CQ

[Isamu]

From the horses mouth: r&d is complete and they are ready to go, but they don't feel the need to expand.

 

Wait, WHAT?! you mean they dont want my money? now thats an awkward feeling... =(

[Baddbaz]

From the horses mouth: r&d is complete and they are ready to go, but they don't feel the need to expand.

Exactly the same thing they told my mate when he visited their factory / business a couple of years ago , so nothing new then !!

[tinkle60]

Wait, WHAT?! you mean they dont want my money? now thats an awkward feeling... =(

Actually that's right. They're happy with the money they from their current range. I think it's a rather refreshing attitude as opposed to being focused on growth.

[Danke]

And it's completely believable also,,,