Madbull V2 black pythons voted best barrel.

[AnotherJesus]

I know this is on the news page already. I'd just like some discussion about it, figured this was the place to post.

 

The article, for those who haven't seen it: http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/3158

 

The conclusion certainly seems to go Madbull's way. What a surprise, their German distributor says they sell better parts than any other company... What gets me, is the raw data. Seeing as it's all in German, it's somewhat difficult to determine what it actually means. From the graphs it would seem to me that Prometheus barrels are better. Did the batch test barrels, or test individual barrels? What are the graphs actually showing? What are the statistics on the right hand side relative to? I'll stick some of this through a translator and see if it makes any sense. If someone could shed some more light on these results it would be appreciated.

 

Edit:

Angegebener wert - More indicated worth, probably means what internal diameter the barrel is sold as.

Durchmesser absolut - Diameter absolutely.

Schwankungen vom innendurchmesser - Fluctuations of the inside diameter.

Gesamtnote - Total note.

Tuningpotenzial - unable to translate.

[Beast06]

Oh look, it's Madbulls German distributor, how funny they should say that.

 

I also wonder why they didn't test PDI's 6.05mm barrels..........

[Utty]

I was going to comment on this as well.

 

The graph shows the uniformity of roundness in the barrel.

 

The prometheus barrel is indeed near perfectly round, and it only deviates from claimed inner diameter (of 6.03mm) by 0.006mm - by actually measuring 6.036mm. This is utterly awesome. The Systema barrel is not far behind, very impressive.

 

The Madbull gets better marks by having a smaller inner diameter than advertised. Claimed is 6.03mm, real is 6.016mm. Roundness is nothing like the prometheus (still good though).

 

While I'm sure the Madbull V2 is a great barrel, and even tighter than the PDI 6.01mm, I know what brand of tightbores I'm buying from now on. The way I'm reading the article: prommy ftw.

[AnotherJesus]

PDI 6.05 and 6.01 barrels are made useing the same cold hammering technique, according to the x fire pro shop blurb. I am inclined to completely ignore these results. They seem to have tested barrels, and figured out a technique to calculate a figure that makes Madbull's barrel look best. The conclusion is likely completely fallacious.

Call me skeptical if you like, I am.

 

Edited: I should learn to use quick reply, it has a spell check function...

[Utty]

Yeah. I'll ignore the Overall scores and Upgrade Potential scores. The raw data shows plainly that the prommy is best - just look at that near-perfect roundness.

[Panzergraf]

Wow, look at the roundness of the Element barrel!

Looks better than Systema, though I didn't pay enough attention in German class at school to actually understand the supplied data

Not nearly as awesome as the Prometheus though, but who cares at that price...

[guiliman]

Very funnny.

 

This test is not made by the german distributor, this test is published in the german Airsoft Magazin

and by the way I am the author.

 

Why the PDI 6,05 was not tested?

Very simple, because I had not every barrel from every company to test.

Most barrels are bought from my personal money...

This test was made by me with the first barrels just for fun and in the meantime,

I had the chance to get more and more different barrels to test.

 

Yes very nice the Element barrel, unfortanly it has a diamater of 6,08mm ....

 

@AnotherJesus

 

Think what you want, these test was made with a machine which is ISO9001 certified, I you have no

idea what this means.... not my problem. This machine has a overall precision of 0,0014mm,

if you think you have better equipment, please show me that my tests are wrong...

If you able to understand german, than you can read the test setup in this article.

 

Don`t flame a article that you can not understand.

[AnotherJesus]

OK then. Perhaps you would like to explain to me why the Madbull barrel is shown as the best barrel? To me certainly this seems a strange conclusion, when the data images you show seem to lead to Prometheus barrels being of a smoother bore. I respect the equipment used, and your technical skill. I'm very uncertain as to why the article seems to point to Madbull being better than Prometheus.

No hard feelings, I didn't mean to insult you. I pretty much had a moment of, "Throwing an insult at this article is victim less." I do apologize.

[Magsz]

Honestly, you guys are getting caught up in petty BS.

 

I use madbull barrels, prometheus barrels and soon to try PDI 6.05mm barrels. Im sure they're all great. One isnt better than the other because you know what, if i can shoot at my target and hit it at 120+ feet reliably then im ok with whatever is in my gun. ALL of the popular tightbores on the market allow me to do that so i really dont give a rats *albatross* about scientific data.

[guiliman]

In the conclusion of my test, I never sayed Madull is the winner.

I made a lot of tests with barrels and it took several hours to find a system to get objective notes.

I created a system where, roundness, the real diameter and the advertised diameter compared to the

real diameter get involved into the note.

 

If a company lies with their the diameter they get less better notes as a company which advertise the

correct diameter. Madbul and Star now have barrels which are tighter than advertised and because

of this, this counted as no deviance from the advertised diameter.

Sorry for my as german speaker it is very complicated do describe this...

 

I descided that a tighter barrel will get a better note and that a smoother barrel get a better note.

But with my tests, I found that a tighter barrel as more impact on the overall precision than a smoother.

Dont get me wrong we are talking about a difference from 3 micrometer between Madbull and Prometheus,

this is nearly nothing...

 

The problem in fact is, that the BBs has a factor 10 more deviance than the barrel and the HU unit has much

more influence on the precision on a tighter barrel as on a less tighter barrel.

 

Sorry again, for my bad english, it is hard to translate all these technical stuff correctly.

 

@ Magsz

 

And this is where you are wrong, sorry.

My first idea to do this test was, to check if is true what they advertised.

And some company make barrels which are not real tightbores.

The normal player has no chance, to check if the barrel is a tightbore, a good thightbore or

a real bad one... Take a look to Element, King and to one of the bigger players: JBU.

I tested 7 barrels from JBU, to be sure that this not a single false barrel....

[Panzergraf]

Ah, I 6.08mm is a far cry from the 6.04mm they advertise.

Still though, very round.

 

While I agree with Magsz that real world performance matter more than graphs and numbers, I suddenly feel like changing the Element barrel in my G36 for a Prometheus. I had a prommy in it before, but installed it in another gun that needed the accuracy more.

I guess number and graphs does matter for many airsofters peace of mind...

 

 

Guiliman, maybe you could post a translated version of your article, so that more people can understand all of it and not just make assumptions after looking at the pictures?

[AnotherJesus]

Thanks for the explanation Guiliman. That's certainly interesting that Madbull have chosen to interpret the results in such a positive light for themselves. The raw data is certainly most appreciated by me and the whole community, I'm sure.

[guiliman]

At this time I have only a very old english version, with only 13 barrels which was translated by a candian player for me.

But this is a real very old version.

If have to check which parts can be taken to clearify some things.

 

And I have to translate a lot to get this to the last version, this would take several days to get it done.

I will try that, but don`t wait for a wonder.

 

BTW:

 

I will publish even more barrels as soon i get the chance to get they in my fingers.

For the 4. Airsoft Magazin, i will publish the Classica Army 6,04mm steel and the Deepfire 6,04mm.

This test will grow, the good thing here is, I get more popularity and may be this makes me easier to

get more and more barrels to test.

 

My intenion was to make this test for you and not for the distributors.

Bye the way, I have some little trouble with one distributor because of these testresults...

but this is not your problem

[guiliman]

@ Another jesus

 

I mean Madbull is not really wrong.

You can interpete the tuning potenial (I tried to reflect the best overall performance in this note)

or which is ths tightest barrel or which is the smoothest

 

as the winner.

 

[fal]

I would be more concerned about consistancy of bore surface/diameter through out the whole length.(from tip of barrel all the way down to the end.) Or was this test conducted this way?

 

In my experience, tighter doesn't always mean "better". But the consistancy of bore size and surface finish/treatments through out the whole length. Also there are other factors such as built material and durability of any special treatment done to it.(KM TN for example) Once these coatings wears out, it no longer retains same consistancy.

 

PDI is usualy highly regarded due to the fact that it is made out of high quality stainless steel and of its consistancy through out the whole length, in both bore size and finish. And the fact that it doesn't have any funny coatings done inside that we don't really have to worry wearing out. For KM TN finish for instance. They get easily damaged and scratched.

 

Another factor is cut out for hopup rubber. The angle and dimension of this cut is also very important.

[Sale]

It's a funny interpretation to automatically say "tighter is better". If I make a 5.5 mm inner barrel, is it then the best possible Airsoft barrel? No. There has to be a clearance between the barrel and BB, or the hop-up will be disturbed. There's also a question of the barrel density that can affect vibration.

 

I'd be much more concerned about the roundness of the inner barrel. In this regard the PDI and Prometheus inner barrels look much better.

 

A big hail to Guiliman for producing the raw data. It's important to check every now and then, if manufacturers are making what they advertise, and it's good to have some rough guidance for potential of the barrel. This kind of measuring instruments aren't available to 99.9% of us.

 

Any interpretations of this test is the responsibility of the reader, not Guiliman. If I tell people I think PDI and Prometheus makes the best barrels and you disagree, then you can argue with me and not Guiliman, right? Similarly, if Madbull use this to advertise their barrels, it's up to their marketing team.

 

I was surprised at the percentage the Deep Fire "6.02" (actual 6.04) inner barrel got. In another independent test they got high quality BBs stuck in one point of the barrel over and over again, and found that there was a big deformation on the inside. I wouldn't use one even if I got it for free.

 

-Sale

[guiliman]

Argh damn browser..

I wrote over two hours and now my entire answer is gone ...

 

And this was a lot

Okay, today I am frustrated and I have no more energy to answer that flame post before.

May be tomorrow...

 

fu**

[eel one [COE]]

For comparison between barrels when one are in the marked for a new one this data is very valuable. Now I must agree with Sale, tighter is not better necessarily. When I intend to buy a new barrel I need to trust the manufactures specifications of the barrels. Therefor I will rather put down my money for a barrel that shows the best relationship between stated size and measured size. I will under do circumstances accept the madbull barrel as the best one of them, they simply deviate to much and in the wrong direction. If the PDI-01 barrel had the same deviation it would have been 5.996mm which would be useless. Due to this I will much rather have the Prometheus barrels which only deviates 0.006mm from the stated diameter and have an exceptional fine roundness of the bore.

[snowman]

This has the smell of a holy war for some.

 

If the diameter WAS less than 6mm it would be (potentially, few BBs are actually as big as 6mm...) problematic, but it isn't - It's 6.02 essentially, which seems a good compromise between 6.04 and 6.01.

 

This whole thread (started by someone who couldn't read German and got the wrong end of the stick about the impartiality of it - Which even a cursory glance makes fairly obvious) seems to have a high degree of messenger shooting.

 

Props to guiliman for taking the time to do some scientific testing, just a shame it's wasted on some people, who'd rather stick to their preferences and pick (incorrect) holes in thorough research.

 

Cheers.

[Apex]

guiliman, stick it in notepad / word if it's going to be a long post then copy paste it over, avoids that issue

[eel one [COE]]

If the diameter WAS less than 6mm it would be (potentially, few BBs are actually as big as 6mm...) problematic, but it isn't - It's 6.02 essentially, which seems a good compromise between 6.04 and 6.01.

 

Never mind if is is a good compromise between .04 and .01. When advertised as .01 with a tolerance of 0.002mm it needs to hold those exact specifications. It might just be me brain washed with ISO 9000 certification mumbo jumbo. But if the product fails to live up to the specifications there is really no telling what potentially can go wrong doing operation. It is the same with the Madbull V2 black python barrels. It might be the tightest barrel in the test. But it is miles off the specification. Now with this accuracy of barrels and the known lag of accuracy of BBs, we are heading in the direction of barrel jams.

[guiliman]

@ Apex

 

LOL, yes I started doing that during you wrote this.

One failure of the brwoser, shame on the browser, a second failure with the sam result in loss: shame on me

 

 

 

@Snowman

 

Unfortanely you are right

To make a lot of expierence and try to find out on a scientific way, end all the time in a holy war

I really hate this! Many people think because thy made good experience with a barrel, they are now a specialist,

I don`t want to say I am the barrel-specialist!

No, but I think only a few other people had the chance (may be I am the only one) to get so much different barrels to test and to experiment with

them or are in the fortunate position to get such diameter scans and had, because of that, the chance to compare the experience with the scans.

I try only to make objective experiences and to compare them with the diagrams and to find out what this means.

And I try always to eliminate all negative impacts on my result to get the best result which is possible!

I want to find out the best, the optimum. I have no favorite barrwl-company, I simply want to find out how to get the best accuracy.

 

 

 

@ Fal

 

I know exactly what you mean, but this can not be done, it is a physical problem.

I talked some month ago with the engineers, which made the test for me, and they told me that such a long and thin tool

is not available on the market and if such a tool exists, than the the tool will be bend down several micrometers due the gravity from

the earth. This resuls in not repeatable measurements.

I have some barrels which are tested 10mm and 20mm in the inner, but the results are the same, so I had to decide to use only one scan

 

With the Hop cuts, yes they are very important* but to find out the best one, I need a barrel-type which has all available cuts on the market.

Otherwise I can not check the impact of only the cuts.

* "Why?" is on the end of this post!

 

I did not say, tightest is the best!

I answer more on that on the reply to "Sale"

 

 

 

@Sale

 

As is said before, I did not say tightest is the best, I will explain this later!

Your example with 5.5mm is completly nonsens, if you will use this to blame me than you have very bad arguments!

 

On one side you hail me but on the other hand, you say: but this guy is not competent to interprete his own results.

You say PDi/Prom. is the best, because of what?

How much different barrels did you tested to get this experience?

 

I sit down and needed a half day to figure out a system which reflects the experience I made and to reflect the result of all the barrels.

Again, I explain this later...

 

What do oyu want to say about the DF 6.04mm, that they are all bad, because at least one was missed by the quality check?

Do you want also say, that if one airplane of one company crashed, that the entire fleet of this company is unsecure?

Okay they had a serious problem with the BBs which are stucked again and again, but to say all the DF are bad because of one test reportet this

failures, that is to easy.

In the german forums you found a lot of people with different barrels and every has the problem with BB which are stuck...

So *suitcases* happens.

 

In the airsoft community most people think only black or white, nothing between, it is best product ever or it is the worst ever.

This makes me really sad, because it seems that many people is not able to respect that other products are better than the personal favorite.

 

Now to my test-experience, I tested a lot of different barrels and I learned a lot because of that.

I think, that a tighter barrel has more impact on accuracy than a barrel which is smoother. But I dont say, tightest is the best!

You need a mixture of tightness and smoothness and 4 micrometer from Madbull is good and not bad.

 

This is why came to this results:

 

I took my TM Mp7 and others, tested that guns with different barrels. I found that the Mp7 has the lowest difference FPS between shots than

every other gun. This is my favorite for testing.

Do understand the next lines, you should better take an eye on the results of the mentioned barrels.

Attention the scale in the roundness diagrams varies from barrel to barrel!!!

 

 

TM Mp7

1. changed the original barrel to a ninballe Mp7 barrel (nineball seems to be identical with prometheus), I got performance gain and a improvement in accuracy

2. changed the Nineball to a DBC 6,01mm barrel and got again a small performance gain and a improvement in accuracy (the DBC is only 0,02mm tighter!)

3. changed the DBC 6,01mm to a PDI 6,01mm and 2-3 more FPS in the average than before, but no noticeable improvement in accuracy (PDI is smoother than DBC)

 

 

my CA G36

1. changed the CA original barrel to a Km Haed barrel 6,04mm (has ~6,06mm) and had no performance gain nor a improvement in accuracy

2. changed the km head to DBC barrel 6,01mm with overlength (555mm) and had stron performance gain and a much better accuracy

3. shortend the dbc barrel from 555m to original length and had the same results as beford

4. changed the dbc to a Madbull barel and got a light performance gain and a small improvement in accuracy

 

 

my King Arms SVD

1. changed the scarp original barrel to a dbc with 630mm and this a huge gain in performance and a very good improvement in accuracy.

The performance gain was from 535 fps to 585 fps (allowed in germany) only because I changed the barrel.

 

 

My PSG1

1. changed the original (scrap too) barrel to a dbc 650mm barrel, and got a much better performance and also a very good improvement in accuracy

 

On the tested barrel from Madbull was different from the other two, this special one had a diameter of 6,007 mm, yes no joke 6mm and 7 micrometers!

I decide to buy this one and the other for my G36 and I was wondering what happens with the tightest barrel.

 

2. changed the DBC 650mm to the MB 6,007mm with 650mm length, I got a again a performance gain and a slightly better accuracy.

 

 

I made over 2000 shots with different types of high quality bbs like extreme, KSC, TFC, Guarder and others and no BB stucked.

 

I tested anymore barrels and guns, but I think the above examples are enough.

Because all the other combinations point in the same direction.

 

With all the results I made, there is only one explantion for that.

Smoothness has a impact on accuracy

Tightness has a impact on accuracy and perfomance (FPS)

But, tightness has more impact on accuracy than smoothness. Otherwise all my results must be wrong, especially the resuls with my MP7.

 

As I said on the beginning, I don`t say only the tightest is the best, I say a tighter barrel is better than a less tight barrel which is some micrometer smoother.

Remember we talk about 2-3 micrometer difference between PDI/Prometheus and Madbull, this factor 5-20 less than the daviation from a BB to the perfect roundness

and from BB to BB!

What I tried with my "note system" is to reflect my experience, and it was very complicated to figure out a system where are enough percentage between a good

and a bad barrel. I am not contend that this "note system" is perfect but I believe it points in the right direction!

 

 

I talked with many players which are not happy with their tight bore results. Most have the problem that they make a error in the assembling.

Most problems are caused bye a air gap between the barrel and the bucking. DBC Barrels have the most problem, because one cut is really long and this

Some other buyed a other barrel and sell their old tightbore and have now very good results, many of them made the same error with their first barrel

but not with new one and then the new one is much better than the older, but this is a mistake...

 

Because of this, I can not give to much attention to other barrel-test, because I have no idea about the test enviroment, many of them don`t know

the old teflon trick and so on ...

 

To come to a end.

I found in my tests that as tighter a barrel is, as more sensitive is the Hop Up unit and it has more and more impact on accuracy.

And very important: the Tanio Koba is not made from a tightbore (most belivieve from a 6,04mm) it is made from a standard barrel with 6,08mm and some grroves are deeper than the others.

 

Guiliman

[AnotherJesus]

This whole thread (started by someone who couldn't read German and got the wrong end of the stick about the impartiality of it - Which even a cursory glance makes fairly obvious) seems to have a high degree of messenger shooting.

 

Props to guiliman for taking the time to do some scientific testing, just a shame it's wasted on some people, who'd rather stick to their preferences and pick (incorrect) holes in thorough research.

 

Cheers.

 

About the messenger shooting. I was wrong, I believe I apologized earlier for this. So please don't jump on me again for it. In fact, I should have shot the messenger (Madbull) when instead I shot the conductor of the experiment and writer of the article. The man who points towards his Madbull barrel being the one best for his gun. After reading his last post, I’m wondering if this 6.01 esque Madbull was the one he tested, and showed to be the best. Was it a special order?

 

To the impartiality statement. It was stated on the news article, that the test was made by Madbull's German distributor. I jumped to a conclusion, I'm fairly happy to have jumped to. To me it's important to question possible bias. I feel this point was satisfied by Guiliman's first reply. As it should have been for most.

 

The testing was not wasted on me. Again I believe I mentioned how appreciated it was after my initial rant about how I disagreed with the conclusion. As for preference. My preference was for PDI barrels before this. I'm an avid tuner of my sniper rifle, who currently uses a PDI 6.05. After this experiment I'm really considering buying a Prommy 6.03. I was not picking holes in the research either. I was picking holes in the conclusion. I'm quite insulted by this. I'm sure I deserve it though. Guiliman hardly seems happy that I've doubted his conclusions. So fair enough, I wont argue any more.

 

I'd like to point out, I think Sale was purely in the persuit, of evidence supporting the conclusion, that tighter is better. Yes he misunderstood Guiliman's conclusion, but to my eyes he didnt seem to insult Guiliman. This leaves me somewhat baffled as to why Guiliman's taking it so personally. We can all blame the language barrier for that and get along nicely now can't we : )

 

Once again Guiliman, thanks for taking the time to do this experiment, and further explain it to us. Your results have prooven most interesting.

 

[guiliman]

Yes hat is true, on the Arnies newspage it is written that the distributor had made the test.

This is a mistake on the arnie`s newspage, on airsoft-news.eu it is published correctly.

 

@Anotherjesus

 

May be I had take this too personally, but I spend over 48hours of my freetime, for testing, for writing, for working out a point system,

for time to check that all is logically, I spend over 400EUR to get most of these damn barrels and some euros for some beers for the enigineers

to do the tests for me and finally a lot of miles and time to visit the german customs which retain (correct word?) the barrels.

 

It isn`t very funny than so see that others who have less experience are say: this guy have not the experience and not the know how to make a

conlusion of his own work and experience he made with all the tests.

How would you feel about that?

Especially if you see that they ignore the tests you made...?

 

 

The Madbull with 6,007mm was not a special one, it was a regular barrel sold as 6.03mm that is why I was so interessted in that Barrel.

If a barrel is 0,01 tighter than advertised or 0,01m less tight is irrelevant, as long the barrels have the same deviation.

If you really care about 0,01mm than you should better take a look to other companys where the barrels have a much higher deviation from the

advertised diameter!

 

And yes, the language barrier is a problem, my english is good enough to make small talk, but for these technical and holy war discussions it`s not good enough!

[Hispeed1]

Uh-oh, this is starting to sound like: What am better, 5.56 or 7.62? AK-47 or M4?