HK 416 is better...

[hardboiledcop]

Or we could just ignore the Geneva Convention like all our enemies and use hollowpoints.....

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aren't you already ignoring it with Guantanamo bay?

[sniper_boi]

aren't you already ignoring it with Guantanamo bay?

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Ooo good point..

 

But yeah..

 

Maybe the US just cant afford to switch over to the 416, that or its still not field tested and some troops are getting jumpy at the prospect of a new rifle after many years with there M16's and M4's.

 

I know i would be if i was in the army an they were having a change of weapons.

[HaVoC]

I think the whole "LOL M4 IS CR*P" thing is way overblown. I have 3 buddies, all deployed in Iraq right now. Guess which weapons platform they use every day?

 

None of them have complained at all. I talk to them about all sorts, and the last thing they complain about is the weapons they use.*

 

The average soldier doesn't appear to have huge problems with the current system. Yes, there are times when a rifle may sttop functioning, but that'll happen with ANY rifle. And if the chance of that failure is only reduced from, say 5-1000 to 3-1000, replacing EVERY SINGLE RIFLE in the armoury and then retraining EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER in its use (even with the HK416, cleaning and maintenance is bound to be different) is just ludicrously expensive, and not worth the money.

 

 

 

*Funnily enough, the one who's in the Army doesn't have a problem with the ACU either. Apparently most of the guys in his unit, himself included, think it's a huge improvement, and have had no real problems with it.

[sniper_boi]

I think the whole "LOL M4 IS CR*P" thing is way overblown. I have 3 buddies, all deployed in Iraq right now. Guess which weapons platform they use every day?

 

None of them have complained at all. I talk to them about all sorts, and the last thing they complain about is the weapons they use.

 

The average soldier doesn't appear to have huge problems with the current system. Yes, there are times when a rifle may sttop functioning, but that'll happen with ANY rifle. And if the chance of that failure is only reduced from, say 5-1000 to 3-5000, replacing EVERY SINGLE RIFLE in the armoury and then retraining EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER in its use (even with the HK416, cleaning and maintenance is bound to be different) is just ludicrously expensive, and not worth the money.

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Exactly, an example would be when the British army changed from bolt action to the FN semi auto, it cost the british tax payer a heck of alot to change the armoury and retrain the soldiers to use it.

[HaVoC]

That was actually justified, though, because it was a complete change of weapons system to one that gave a HUGE improvement.

[sniper_boi]

That was actually justified, though, because it was a complete change of weapons system to one that gave a HUGE improvement.

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Indeed, but then we changed again to a weapon with greater improvement.

[doc_newstead]

I don't buy the "it's too expensive" argument. For the money the Yanks spend on, say, one or two fighter planes, they could probably re-arm most of their infantry and teeth arms with the HK416. And what gets more use these days; boots on the ground, or air-to-air fighters?... This isn't the Cold War anymore folks.

[Spedz]

Sorry to break it to you Doc but for the Yanks mindset they still think Russians are commies........(I think that says it all)

[HaVoC]

Eh? Most don't, actually.

 

Anyway, it's those damn Chinese we gotta watch out for now...

 

[Spedz]

Same mindset different clothing.

[sekiryu]

iirc the regulator is for use of supersonic vs. subsonic rounds

 

No, usually there's 3 settings. One for "normal conditions", one for "fouled conditions", and one for rifle grenades.

[alpha54]

In the case of the HK416, I'm rather certain there's two settings - supersonic or subsonic.

[finderella1]

Eh? Most don't, actually.

 

Anyway, it's those damn Chinese we gotta watch out for now...

 

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Speaking of which...

 

Some lucky Marines get to shoot a proper gun finally

 

 

On a serious note, i wonder what they thought of it.

[AliceHKfan]

Maybe the US just cant afford to switch over to the 416, that or its still not field tested and some troops are getting jumpy at the prospect of a new rifle after many years with there M16's and M4's.

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iirc some SF groups have them, I think one of them is SOCOM

 

No, usually there's 3 settings. One for "normal conditions", one for "fouled conditions", and one for rifle grenades.

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where did you hear that? and why would we use rifle grenades when we have the M320 and M203?

[sekiryu]

The FN FNC has those three gas settings. So does the FN FAL. And the Type 89. The AUG has two (don't think it's compatible with rifle grenades). The M1 Garand and M14 had settings for rifle grenades too. The M249/Minimi, M240B/G/MAG have them too, though they adjust the RoF, iirc.

 

The standard setting only allows a certain amount of gas to cycle the bolt. The "fouled" setting allows more gas to cycle the bolt. The rifle grenade setting completely cuts off the gas system, so that all gas is directed towards propelling the rifle grenade.

 

In the case of the HK416, I'm rather certain there's two settings - supersonic or subsonic.

 

Subsonic rounds don't have enough gas pressure to cycle the bolt, so changing the gas settings wouldn't do anything.

 

EDIT: Apparently the AUG can use rifle grenades:

 

There are three gas regulator positions. Position 1 (small dot on the gas cylinder) is the normal setting and permits the largest amount of gas to escape into the atmosphere. Position 2 (large dot on the gas cylinder) diverts more gas into the system for adverse conditions or extreme fouling. Position GR blocks gas escape for firing blank (ballistite) cartridges to launch rifle grenades of the non-bullet trap type. In the GR position the rifle cannot cycle. To adjust the regulator, pull out the top of the gas plug and rotate it until the ball detent is aligned with the desired position.

[Chimpy]

I don't buy the "it's too expensive" argument. For the money the Yanks spend on, say, one or two fighter planes, they could probably re-arm most of their infantry and teeth arms with the HK416. And what gets more use these days; boots on the ground, or air-to-air fighters?... This isn't the Cold War anymore folks.

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Always looking ahead to the next war.

 

Besides who knows how much retraining, rearming, removing (old inventory) would cost? Not to mention the contract bidding cycle and testing phases.

 

Until we see numbers it's a little hard to compare them to the costs of a fighter etc.

[AliceHKfan]

might have been thinking of the HK417, which does have 2 gas positions which are for super vs. subsonic loads

[daniel-chavez]

$$$$$$$$$$ DUDE!! if you fund the U.S. Army... i'm sure they will change their mind =p

[Sale]

Doesn't a gas-piston system have a regulator, so if you do have fine sand in the way, you can adjust the regulator to use more gas, and force the piston through all that junk?

Theoretically, yes. But a lot of military rifles do push a slightly excess amount of gas even in the normal position. Race shooters use adjustable gas blocks (or regulators) to improve characteristics, because race guns don't need to work in adverse conditions.

 

The backward stroke is usually not the problem when the gun gets dirty. More often a dirty gun will fail to close the action*, and it has nothing to do with how hard the bolt carrier was moving back.

 

I thought the problem with the M4 wasn't just terminal ballistics, but having to use a cleaning rod to clear a jam, then having the cleaning rod break, and also having to pound the forward assist a dozen times per shot.

If you need a cleaning rod to clear a jam, something was really wrong in the first place. Normally a jam in the AR-15 system is cleared just like on any other weapons system. If you have a casing stuck in the chamber, it doesn't matter who built the gun -> You need to get it out by other, slow means, usually the cleaning rod.

 

*Pounding the forward assist helps to close the action by force, if the recoil spring failed to do it. With an AK, SIG and some others you can simply push forward on the charging handle.

 

A lot of instructors speak against this practice, because if a cartridge is jammed in the chamber, forcing the bolt carrier forward will only make it stick even worse (regardless of brand or model). Then when you manage to fire the gun, the extractor may slip over the casing base, and it's cleaning rod time. In the worst case the casing base is ripped off, and you have a brass lining in your chamber, a situation which you can't fix in the field.

 

A better course of action in case the action doesn't close is simply to rack the charging handle, and try to chamber another round.

 

Whether the rifle uses a gas piston or not has no effect on whether it will close the action or not when the weapon is dirty. The gas piston vs. direct gas system is simply about how much the weapon fouls when it's fired, and it helps to prevent getting the bolt hot in extended full auto.

 

Like I said in my first post, the HK416 is better, but because it still fires the 5.56, it's not a big enough improvement. A lot of the improvements of the HK416 were also realized at Colt, and they wanted to add them to their weapons, but the US army rejected them. They weren't deemed necessary. Gas piston models have been made for a long time. Again, they weren't necessary so they weren't adopted.

 

I'm quite sure the US armed forces are simply using the M16/M4 series now that they have them, and when they are replaced, it will be something that shoots the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel possibly. It wouldn't make sense to buy an expensive weapon now to fix some minor flaws, only to replace it a decade or two later when the six-point-somethings come around.

 

AliceHKfan: 5.56 subsonics are pretty much equal to .22 LR, so they don't see much military use. In 7.62 caliber subsonics are more effective, so you must have been thinking about the SCAR-H.

 

-Sale

[alpha54]

The HK416 and HK417 have "a variable gas setting for "N"ormal and "S"uppressed .308 ammunition". Quoted straight from HKPRO.

[daniel-chavez]

might have been thinking of the HK417, which does have 2 gas positions which are for super vs. subsonic loads

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417 can't be the main weapon to replace M4 and M16. 7.62 is too big for it, the U.S. might have a chance thinking 417 for designated marksman role, for main infantryman? No, it won't gonna happen.

 

p.s. I hope the final model of 417 comes with a fix stock like m16, collapse stock is just not for the look of 417. As wiki said, 417 is a DMR more then assault rifle, the collapse stock reminds people carbines, can't possible to be DMR. Ever see M4 put into DM role? I'm sure the target is gone before you try reload your 2nd magzine.

[sniper_boi]

iirc some SF groups have them, I think one of them is SOCOM

where did you hear that? and why would we use rifle grenades when we have the M320 and M203?

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Emphazise on that word, "some" not all "some"

[AliceHKfan]

417 can't be the main weapon to replace M4 and M16. 7.62 is too big for it, the U.S. might have a chance thinking 417 for designated marksman role, for main infantryman? No, it won't gonna happen...Ever see M4 put into DM role?...

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I never said the HK417 was the new "replacement" for the current AR weapons and people use AR platforms for DMR's alot

 

 

Emphazise on that word, "some" not all "some"

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yeah, but theoretically they are being field tested then since they are infact using them in Iraq/Afghanistan

[sniper_boi]

I never said the HK417 was the new "replacement" for the current AR weapons and people use AR platforms for DMR's alot

yeah, but theoretically they are being field tested then since they are infact using them in Iraq/Afghanistan

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An there's my answer.....

 

Maybe the US just cant afford to switch over to the 416, that or its still not field tested and some troops are getting jumpy at the prospect of a new rifle after many years with there M16's and M4's.

 

There being field tested by SF's not regular army.

[daniel-chavez]

I thought you were trying to say The U.S. Army might have been thinking of the HK417...