GuzziHero Posted September 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Impartial thoughts: Felt sorry for Massa with the fuel rig...but he deserved that penalty for sure. If he hadnt moved when he spun, I think Sutil would have hit him. No result change either way. Rosberg done good. Yes he got lucky but he capitalised on it. Alonso got lucky and I still dont like the arrogant little *suitcase* . Raikkonen never looked like anything but lucky last year, and is looking like a failure this year. Most importantly: Massa really should have won, he was driving well. Hamilton didnt sparkle during one point of that race. Even the pass on Coulthard was pretty boring, and too late to be of any use. Kovalainen is useless. Link to post Share on other sites
RacingManiac Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Ferrari must be into the SM thing, since they really like to throw races away this year to pain themselves.... One thing though, even without the fuel rig incident, I don't see how Ferrari could win easily today though, since Alonso would not have been affected anyhow, his pit timing was such that he would inherit the lead anyway, and he did have the pace of the lead cars in clean air, and the rest of his race would be on the much better prime tires rather than the useless option. Unless Massa or Hamilton could pull off a banzai move it was unlikely they could've passed him either way....and the leader of banzai pass this year(Hamilton) was decidedly average in that department today, probably the nature of the track....Renault really pulled a fast one today, using the soft on the start was the right call, and if Alonso had made up more position than he did in his first stint the win would've been even more convincing...since I think the SC was inevitable.... also, great call on Piquet being the first one to bin it.... Link to post Share on other sites
GuzziHero Posted September 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 I failed...it wasnt boring and not only did Ukyo Katayama (2008 edition) not crash, he even scored a point! Link to post Share on other sites
richwuk Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Having just taken a look on itv-f1.com looks like Kovalainen had some problems, he's displayed some quick times in quail (in the past) but it seems to be his race pace that isn't so great. Vettel did well too, i wonder if RBR pull there finger out next year, how good he will be... I'm going to keep a close eye on itv-f1.com in the next couple of days, I'm the FIA will dream up some BS penalty Link to post Share on other sites
GuzziHero Posted September 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 I'm going to keep a close eye on itv-f1.com in the next couple of days, I'm the FIA will dream up some BS penalty BREAKING NEWS: Hamilton disqualified for speeding. Link to post Share on other sites
Danke Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 BREAKING NEWS: Hamilton disqualified for speeding. Really? I heard it was because he was found in possesson of the big brown table from FIA headquarters. Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 I heard he was done for speeding whilst running to fast to the toilet after the press conference. Link to post Share on other sites
GuzziHero Posted September 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 In other news...can anyone remember a less impressive performance from a reigning world champion than the one Raikkonen is offering this year? Even Hill when he moved to Arrows still had his exemplarily large testicles moments. Im seeing none of that from Kimi. Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 He has days where I think, how the hell did he become champion. He just seems to drive about like a zombie then all of a sudden finds blistering pace out of no where, a little like how Trulli can be. I really hope that the next batch of new talent coming through to F1 have a bit of aggression to them and arn't PR friendly, but seeing how they drill it out of them now I can't see that happening. Link to post Share on other sites
richwuk Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 When he was with McLaren he was a very strong driver (apart from 2006 when reliability let him down big time if I remember correctly). He was 2nd in the 2005 championship too. I don't see how he can blame the car as Massa seems to have few problems when Raikkonen does. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 also, great call on Piquet being the first one to bin it.... Thank you In other news...can anyone remember a less impressive performance from a reigning world champion than the one Raikkonen is offering this year? Even Hill when he moved to Arrows still had his exemplarily large testicles moments. Im seeing none of that from Kimi. I like the man, but does Jacques count? I suppose not since he tootled around in a piece of ###### while Kimi's in a FIArrari. He definately lucked onto the championship last year, and looked a lot more convincing in 03 and 05 to be honest. I did a small analysis of both Kimi and Massa's race performance for the past 5 races for a friend who's started watching this year. I thought I might share it here: In order from earliest to latest: Massa: 17 1 1 6 13 Massa's analysis: Hungary, Massa should have won, but didnt because of a blown engine. Valencia he won with a stunning drive, although if the FIA had been doing what they're supposed to do he might have been penalised. but for the sake of this comparism we'll study them based solely on their performance shown during the race. Spa, Massa lucked onto a win, but on merit he would have finished 2nd still, or 3rd assuming kimi didnt crash. Monza, he was 6th, and not really shining in the wet. Singapore, he might have won if not for the SC and the resulting pit problems. Summary: In the past 5 races Massa would have won 3 on strength, finished another on the podium on merit and scored a 6th in one in the wet based solely on performance. Kimi: 3 R 18 9 15 Kimi's analysis: Hungary: Would be 5th on merit were it not for massa's engine failure and lewis's blown tyre Valencia: Retired, but bodged it during the pit stops anyway and was never close to his teammate the whole weekend. Spa: He shone in the race, would have finished 2nd on merit but he had crashed with an unforced error in the wet while fighting Lewis. Monza: Never really looked on the ball, despite holding off Lewis earlier in the race. The starting and finishing positions of Lewis and Kimi says it all. Singapore: Was running in a "ho hum" 4th but crashed with an unforced error in the final laps. Summay: In the past 5 races, he has only ever looked to be a genuine contender for one win, with a 4th, 2 5ths and a 9th place based on race performance alone. If I may add a bit of educated guesswork as to Kimi's misery: It seems to me that Kimi tends to like qualifying with a heavier car for the sake of a race strategy. Problem is, it also seems that he tends to look average with a heavy car. You usually see him come alive during the middle of his stints, when the car lightens up, and then he suddenly goes even faster than Massa assuming both have clear air. I think Kimi needs to try qualifying lighter to get himself on pole. Might actually help. Anyways here's Kimi's past 5 quali results: 6th 4th 4th 14th 3rd Hope this analysis was a good read Link to post Share on other sites
RacingManiac Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 fair analysis I must say, Kimi is decidedly average this year. I can't recall a real moment of brilliance, where as last year there were races that he was just better than Massa. I am sorta suprised that he didn't choose to end his contract and just move on. Ferrari's car this year couldn't have helped, being only able to operate is a knife edge width of performance envelope. But Massa surprisingly is managining it a lot better than Kimi. I guess having Schumacher as a mentor does kinda help... Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 That is another area I'd like to comment on. Kimi is the kind of driver with sheer amounts of innate talent. The "drive by instinct" sort. Devestatingly fast when the conditions are right. Massa used to be the same "drive by instinct" sort. However his level of raw talent was probably below that of Kimi. The result? He crashed a lot more than Kimi did in the early years. Then Massa spent 2 or 3? years as Michael's apprentice... well Michael is the sort of very technical driver, in the same vein as Prost was. I always felt that Mika and even Kimi had more raw talent that Michael, but Michael's perfected the art of being a technical driver, like a human computer. As a result, Massa is now a very good technical driver, and is able to turn in more consistantly good performances, as well as drive to eliminate his weaknesses and deal with problems better. Link to post Share on other sites
snowman Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 I'm sorry, but I have to disagree Whilst I often found M. Schumacher the most arrogant, irritating driver ever in F1, to suggest he lagged behind Mika or Raikonnen in terms of talent is beyond laughable... Mika was ok as a driver and Raikonnen used to be reasonable before he took an early retirement job advising on plumbing fittings at B&Q/Ferrari, but neither held a candle to Schumacher in aggression, car control and pure, innate skill. It was a shame he didn't race much against Senna and was gone before Hamilton arrived (I'm sure Hamilton will improve over the next couple of years), but Mika and Raikonnen had their chances (and took them), but never looked in the Schumacher league in any sense. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
RacingManiac Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 IMO Schumacher worked very hard to be what he is. The guy was a working machine. And he has probably the best work ethic of any modern F1 drivers. Never say the wrong things, and always work in the background to sort out the problem. And he pushes his car on good days and bad days. I think talent wise I don't think he is quite like Raikkonen, but I think he works easily many times harder to make sure he is faster.... Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I'm sorry, but I have to disagree Whilst I often found M. Schumacher the most arrogant, irritating driver ever in F1, to suggest he lagged behind Mika or Raikonnen in terms of talent is beyond laughable... Mika was ok as a driver and Raikonnen used to be reasonable before he took an early retirement job advising on plumbing fittings at B&Q/Ferrari, but neither held a candle to Schumacher in aggression, car control and pure, innate skill. It was a shame he didn't race much against Senna and was gone before Hamilton arrived (I'm sure Hamilton will improve over the next couple of years), but Mika and Raikonnen had their chances (and took them), but never looked in the Schumacher league in any sense. Cheers. And I'm sorry but I have to disagree. If you took all 3 drivers on their best days, Michael couldn't touch Mika and Kimi. Ferrari engineers claimed that Kimi redefined their sense of reality on what was humanely possible in the car after years of what they thought possible with Michael, while someone who was a teammate to both Michael and Mika did say that Mika was the more innately talented driver. I'm talking about car control and stuff. You do realise that Michael never really was great at overtaking, and often got overtake when coming up against backmarkers. 2 examples stand out: Spa 2000 and Brazil 2001. Schumi however was great at knowing when to push to what extent to maximise a race. However I cannot ever imaine him pulling off the sort of move that Mika pulled at Spa 2000. THAT is a move born out of a higher level of innate talent than Michael ever had. Which is why Michael achieved more, however. People with very high levels of innate talent tend to depend on it more and neglect developing other areas of being a racing driver. Kimi is an especially great example of this. ....but I think he works easily many times harder to make sure he is faster.... I wouldn't say "faster", but I would say more consistantly quick. Kimi would be the sort who would do a couple of 99% laps and then do the rest at 90%, while Michael could probably do all of them at 96-97% if he needed to. Link to post Share on other sites
snowman Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 And I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I kind of hoped you would If you took all 3 drivers on their best days, Michael couldn't touch Mika and Kimi. Any evidence to support that? Ferrari engineers claimed that Kimi redefined their sense of reality on what was humanely possible in the car after years of what they thought possible with Michael, while someone who was a teammate to both Michael and Mika did say that Mika was the more innately talented driver. I'm talking about car control and stuff. You do realise that Michael never really was great at overtaking, and often got overtake when coming up against backmarkers. 2 examples stand out: Spa 2000 and Brazil 2001. Taking isolated examples you could claim that Senna was ###### at overtaking, but the reality just isn't so... Schumacher drove a lot of cars, not all F1, and I've seen him do impossible things in many of them. Schumi however was great at knowing when to push to what extent to maximise a race. However I cannot ever imaine him pulling off the sort of move that Mika pulled at Spa 2000. THAT is a move born out of a higher level of innate talent than Michael ever had. Which is why Michael achieved more, however. People with very high levels of innate talent tend to depend on it more and neglect developing other areas of being a racing driver. Kimi is an especially great example of this. You're just making excuses for Raikonen's inability to deliver - In my view, he's a disillusioned, unmotivated driver who lucked into the championship last year and should do the decent thing and make room for someone who wants to race (Northern Irish driver Adam Carroll for instance - Remember, he beat Hamilton in GP2 on occasions on Lewis' hairgel budget!!!). I didn't recall Mika's move at Spa in 2000 (just took a look - good, but pretty lucky that the car they passed looked in BOTH mirrors and moved to the middle of the road, otherwise he'd have been blocked and lost a load of ground AND he was clearly drafting the Ferrari up the hill - not a patch on Mansell's move on Senna - or was it Prost - at Imola though - THAT was sheer instinct!), but many, many drivers pulled off amazing passes in their careers without being gifted (One swallow and all that). You could cite Damon Hill's performance in the Arrows at the Hungaroring as proof that he was better than Schumacher - Was he? No... But he did make the most of good car when he was given it, something Raikonen seems unable to do.... Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Hell no I agree Kimi lucked onto the championship last year. Then again given how close he came in 03 with a year old car against schumi in a Ferrari, and then in 05 against Alonso but faltered due to some bad luck, it's probably a case of winning some losing some. I'm certainly not making excuses for him. I don't think that just because one has a higher level of innate ability, it means one should be half-arsed about racing. Certainly Michael is no slouch and we know that he was very driven to race and win, so is Lewis. However I stand by the fact that Michael actually seldom overtakes. His favourite tactic with a much faster car when stuck behind someone slower is to wait till pitsops and then bang in some amazing laps and pit 3 or 4 laps later. I can think of MANY occasions where he's lost out trying to pass someone with a car that isn't much slower than his, certainly more than there are examples of him pulling off moves based on sheer audacity, skill and judgement. Passes against cars which were visibly inferior to his Fiarrari doesn't count. Fact is I did mention some evidence of where Michael's skill level compares against Kimi's and Mika's. It's really no shame that he isn't as innately skilled as the other 2. Out of a scale of 100, I'd say the difference is only 1 or 2 points, and more than made up for by his technical ability, ruthless motivation and drive. But of course back to Kimi, as my previous commentaries have stated, he's not performing as he should. And why? Maybe thats the problem with Fiarrari letting him do as he will. If he would put in the sort of work ethics that Massa seems to have developed under Michael, he'd be doing a lot better. You can imagine Massa sittin by the track with the factory boys in some technical discussion, while Kimi's gone off for a night in town with his boys getting drunk like any other brit pikeys on a sat night binge. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Mr Montezemolo really needs to learn some humility... as does the whole Fiarrari team. After their commedy of errors in Singapore he had the cheek to throw the toys out of the pram and complain about the race being a circus. Bernie put him in his place with some nicely applied wit: "If the Ferrari president is right about the Singapore Grand Prix being a circus, then we have to be grateful to him for providing the clowns," Ecclestone told the Mail on Sunday. "After the weekend Ferrari had, their president should have shut up and kept his head down." Now will the Real Monte please stand up? Link to post Share on other sites
BaggyPants Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 You have to love Bernie Link to post Share on other sites
Touchette Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 That is another area I'd like to comment on. Kimi is the kind of driver with sheer amounts of innate talent. The "drive by instinct" sort. Devestatingly fast when the conditions are right. Massa used to be the same "drive by instinct" sort. However his level of raw talent was probably below that of Kimi. The result? He crashed a lot more than Kimi did in the early years. Then Massa spent 2 or 3? years as Michael's apprentice... well Michael is the sort of very technical driver, in the same vein as Prost was. I always felt that Mika and even Kimi had more raw talent that Michael, but Michael's perfected the art of being a technical driver, like a human computer. As a result, Massa is now a very good technical driver, and is able to turn in more consistantly good performances, as well as drive to eliminate his weaknesses and deal with problems better. Some of your posts, particularly regarding Ferrari and the FIA, make you sound a bit radical and conspiracy theory driven, but this one I truly agree with. I also like the recent race performance analysis above. I also agree with most of your other arguments against Snowman. Who has more raw natural unfiltered racing talent? Kimi. Who is the better driver? Michael. Oh, and you are 100% correct when you say this: But of course back to Kimi, as my previous commentaries have stated, he's not performing as he should. And why? Maybe thats the problem with Fiarrari letting him do as he will. If he would put in the sort of work ethics that Massa seems to have developed under Michael, he'd be doing a lot better. You can imagine Massa sittin by the track with the factory boys in some technical discussion, while Kimi's gone off for a night in town with his boys getting drunk like any other brit pikeys on a sat night binge. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 So, who is going to win this years crown? It has to be Lewis surely, after St Helens crashing out (again) at the final against Leeds I need something remotley up lifting in the sporting world this year. Link to post Share on other sites
richwuk Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 So long as McLaren-Mercedes don't make any stupid tyre choices; Hamilton. I hope Massa doesn't (only for the stuff Ferrari have gotten away with) or Kubica is my 2nd choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Kubica is an outside bet I reckon. All money is on Lewis atm. Link to post Share on other sites
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