Pablo Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Go back to sleep and stop panicking about everything the government say or do. There is no vast conspiracy. I'm not panicking, I never said there was a conspiracy, and I only had me eyes closed for a minute As you say (and so did I) this is nothing new, it's just been brought back to people's attention. A lot of people won't have been aware of it, so naturally they're curious. EDIT: Any advance on 344fps? The reason I ask is that I know most sites talk about 328fps +10% (as do Fireball), but if it should be 1.1J and it's a lower figure, then they're no more law-abiding than sites allowing 500fps, are they? Link to post Share on other sites
Delfi Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Why doesn't anyone listen to me? ... The fact of the matter is that when a person shoots another person in a non-lethal, non-injuring way with an airsoft sniper rifle while both parties were engaged in a consenual game of airsoft at an approved site and were within the rules of that site, gaiing a conviction for that "crime" is going to be very difficult. You cannot consent to assault and anything over these limits counts as assault. D Link to post Share on other sites
Cannonfodder80 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I suppose one question is whether allowing the use of airsoft guns over 1J on a site invalidates their insurance? I guess the PLI contract sets the power levels, so if the site allows high powered sniper rifles then it'll have the relivant insurance. Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 You cannot consent to assault and anything over these limits counts as assault. D I refer the honourable gentleman to imp1864's posts about consent above. But that's not important if no-one ever gets prosecuted. Link to post Share on other sites
HeartBreaker1317 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 EDIT: Any advance on 344fps? The reason I ask is that I know most sites talk about 328fps +10% (as do Fireball), but if it should be 1.1J and it's a lower figure, then they're no more law-abiding than sites allowing 500fps, are they? I guess the sites need to clarify if it is velocity + 10% or energy + 10%. But you are right, if they are supposed to be using the lower figure then they are just as illegal as those using even higher velocities. Of course, if it isn't enforced then just how illegal these things are comes into question. Link to post Share on other sites
Delfi Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I refer the honourable gentleman to imp1864's posts about consent above. But that's not important if no-one ever gets prosecuted. I appreciate this but what is 'likely to happen' and what 'could happen' are different types of consideration. It becomes very important if someone does get done ... not so long ago a forum member here had his guns seized and tested by the police. In the light of this and the nature of a public forum I'm trying to encourage people to be cautious. D Link to post Share on other sites
TheBauer Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I guess the PLI contract sets the power levels, so if the site allows high powered sniper rifles then it'll have the relivant insurance. Ay, Ive been told by one site owner 500fps is in his insurance and another said that the 550 limit they had was the highest their insurer would go. Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 By my calculations: 1.1j with .2g bbs is approximately 104 m/s, or about 344 fps. 104.88088481701516 (meters / second) = 344.097391 feet / second Arnie's FPS Calculator 344fps = 1.09J 360.08fps = 1.2J The law is determined in terms of muzzle energy, not muzzle velocity, as the muzzle energy of a weapon does not depend on the mass of the projectile, but the muzzle velocity does. Delfi - I appreciate that. I'm trying to encourage people to be sensible. Nothing has changed on the airsofting limit, so having a big panic about it and making everyone leave their sniper rifles at home is pointless. Yes, *possibly* airsoft sniping is a crime. But so what? We've all been doing it for years, and ignorance is no defense. Everyone with an airsoft sniper rifle could be prosecuted for every hit they've ever scored. It's not like there's a date when this comes into effect, it's ALWAYS been in effect. Since nothing has been done about it before, I see no need to worry about the blue fury of the local firearms police landing on your local skirmish site next weekend. Link to post Share on other sites
snorkelman Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Now, if I was a cynic I'd say this is a totally planned move ... unlike the handgun ban (which involved compensation) what we have is a whole load of useless 'air rifles' which are legal to own. They also can't be sold to collectors who aren't skirmishers. eh? if they're air weapons then (provided their method of operation is legal) they can be sold to any individual over 18 who isnt barred from ownership of an airweapon (due to criminal convictions etc) by anyone as a secondhand sale. Even accross the net. face to face RFD logged airweapon sales requirement only applies to commercial sellers Link to post Share on other sites
Pablo Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Just wondering if anyone can quote sources on the "consent to assault" issue? Here's one I found, though I'm not familiar with the site or it's reputation so I cannot vouch for it: http://sixthformlaw.info/01_modules/mod3a/...nce_consent.htm Link to post Share on other sites
Spacemonkey Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Serious question- but how does this effect paintball markers which have a far higher muzzle energy? If airsoft 'guns' are illegal above, say 350fps as people mention above, then surely all paintball markers with far greater muzzle energy are illegal too and would constitute assault as far as the HO is concerned? So why do paintball sites still exist? If they are legal, then why the prejudice against airsoft guns- realistic imitations or not? Link to post Share on other sites
BenjaminRombough Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Space Monkey: The paintball ammunition is frangible unlike BB's so doesnt fall under the same limits. Can i just ask Maybe in a slightly Newbish way and i fully expect to be flamed But how the *fruitcage* does the UK airsoft RETAILERS association have any say over FPS limits? and why are they in conversation with the homeoffice over this matter? Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 You cannot consent to assault and anything over these limits counts as assault. D And that's why we had to ban martial arts. Oh, wait.... Arnie's FPS Calculator 344fps = 1.09J 360.08fps = 1.2J The law is determined in terms of muzzle energy, not muzzle velocity, as the muzzle energy of a weapon does not depend on the mass of the projectile, but the muzzle velocity does. We are not talking about a law. We are talking about guidelines issues by a bunch of suits. If they say "328fps +/- 10%" are you REALLY going to argue with them in favour of a lower limit? Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Painball is a separate issue. Air Weapon Laws don't cover them. Link to post Share on other sites
Delfi Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 eh? if they're air weapons then (provided their method of operation is legal) they can be sold to any individual over 18 who isnt barred from ownership of an airweapon (due to criminal convictions etc) by anyone as a secondhand sale. Even accross the net. face to face RFD logged airweapon sales requirement only applies to commercial sellers I stand corrected ... so a RIF that's an air weapon is not a s.36 gun? D Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 An Air Weapon can't be an RIF. Technically, the VCRA doesn't apply to any airsoft sniper rifle firing at over 350fps. They're not RIFs, they're air rifles and therefore can't be fired at people, or sold by retailers over the internet, etc.etc... In the same way that my 4.5mm Co2 pistol isn't an RIF, despite looking like a Makarov, it's an air pistol. Link to post Share on other sites
Cannonfodder80 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Right to clear up this assault issue AFAIK, you play at a site with set power limits and so are giving your consent to be shot by AS guns in those limits, so no charges can be filed. Knowingly using a hot gun means your target's consent is not given so charges can be filed. Nothing has changed Link to post Share on other sites
Delfi Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 An Air Weapon cann't be an RIF. Technically, the VCRA doesn't apply to any airsoft sniper rifle firing at over 350fps. They're not RIFs, they're air rifles and therefore can't be fired at people, or sold by retailers over the internet, etc.etc... Thank you ... that's what I was getting at. but the figure might be 360 or 350 or 345 or 382 ... We really need the minutes of the meeting ... where's Tim when you need him? D Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Indeed, I used 350 as an example, because it's a nice round number. If the 1.1J limit is to be believed (I personally think that from a legal viewpoint the muzzle energy limit is 1 foot pound or 1.35J) then that is approx 344fps. UK Law Criminal Precedents R v Boyea (1992) Whether consent negates assault depends on the harm (objectively) likely to be caused and, because I mentioned it earlier in passing: R v Brown (1993) Consent no defence to sadomasochistic injuries Link to post Share on other sites
BenjaminRombough Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 thats a rather glaring hole in the VCRA isnt it? theoretically by upgrading any rif to +350 you would then be in possesion of a air rifle and then not subject to the same rules and regs that you would have been sub 350 Link to post Share on other sites
seaweasel Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I'm curious how this affects Northern Ireland. The UK government has a habit of forgetting about or ignoring legal jurisdictions other than England and Wales and I wonder if the regulations regarding Airsoft in NI came up in the meeting. For those of you that don't know, the 1J limit is set in legislation for NI (unlike the rest of the UK where, correct me if I'm wrong, it's defined by HO guidelines and legal precedent), and anything more powerful than this requires a FAC (not that you can get a FAC for an Airsoft gun). I'm therefore assuming that we still can't get away with +10% over here. Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 thats a rather glaring hole in the VCRA isnt it? theoretically by upgrading any rif to +350 you would then be in possesion of a air rifle and then not subject to the same rules and regs that you would have been sub 350 That is true of bolt action and double-action weapons. Full auto weapons would immediately be classed as a section 5 firearm and the same may apply to semi automatic weapons too. Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 thats a rather glaring hole in the VCRA isnt it? theoretically by upgrading any rif to +350 you would then be in possesion of a air rifle and then not subject to the same rules and regs that you would have been sub 350 Yes and no. The VCRA isn't designed or intended to deal with weapons approaching the power of serious airsoft kit, much less air weapons. It's designed to deal with springer kiddies and chavs, and their RIFs tend to be in the 0.1-0.2J range. Plus, an AEG firing over the limit is a fully automatic air weapon, and as such is very illegal in the UK. Link to post Share on other sites
Delfi Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Indeed, I used 350 as an example, because it's a nice round number. If the 1.1J limit is to be believed (I personally think that from a legal viewpoint the muzzle energy limit is 1foot pound of 1.35J) then that is approx 344fps. actually 1ftlb of muzzle momentum is 382fps with a 0.2 328+10% of velocity is 360fps 328 + 5% of velocity is roughly 345fps with a 0,2 328 + 10% energy is also close to 345fps D Link to post Share on other sites
BenjaminRombough Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Where does this leave AEG snipers then the ones that were orignially designed for semi only? IE PSG-1 and CA/G&G SPR's Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.